Author Topic: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?  (Read 95549 times)

wmenorr67

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #100 on: March 22, 2012, 10:13:06 AM »
As we all know there is always at least three sides to every story.  Too bad one side here will never be told.
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Jocassee

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #101 on: March 22, 2012, 10:35:11 AM »
If the eyewitness account in the article is correct, Zimmerman may not have even drawn  his gun until he was on the ground with Trayvon on top of him. And even then he may not have drawn until he had received the wound to the back of the head, possibly by Trayvon hitting his head against the ground.

IF that is the case, this still make the story phenomenally poor judgement--but understandable.

ETA as a further note, I saw an interview on CNN with a local police person (who was black coincidentally) who had listened to the tapes and said there were no racial slurs uttered.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 10:47:54 AM by Jocassee »
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TommyGunn

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #102 on: March 22, 2012, 10:50:56 AM »
What I don't get about this is, being a pro self defence community, why is no one talking about trayvon's right to self defence?

That witness might well have have seen trayvon trying to subdue an armed and mentally disturbed attacker.   Given the tapes, I think it's likely that trayvon had a legal right to defend himself by force from this oddly behaving attacker.  

Or does only the gun holding party get considered a candidate for self defence?

As a matter of pure practicality, only Zimmerman had a gun.  Interestingly, under the HYG law, Trayvon might have had a justifiable reason to draw a gun and fire  under the circumstance (although this might have become murky if he became involved in a fight with Zimmerman that he initiated, and IMHO facts here are VERY MURKY)  if he believed his life was threatened.  
I'm not sure refering to Zimmerman as "mentally disturbed" is justified.  He definantly showed rotten judgement when he left the car and started pursuing Trayvon after the 911 op said "we don't need you to do that," but that doesn't mean he's mentally disturbed.
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Balog

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #103 on: March 22, 2012, 11:15:11 AM »
It would be interesting to know when Zimmerman drew the gun. If some guy was cruising along following me, jumped out of it to confront me, and had a gun drawn (or his hand on a holstered one for that matter) I'd be inclined to use force against him.
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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #104 on: March 22, 2012, 11:25:15 AM »
how does using force on the guy with the drawn gun work out?
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Jamie B

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #105 on: March 22, 2012, 11:57:53 AM »
how does using force on the guy with the drawn gun work out?

Self defense, of course!  =D
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Seenterman

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #106 on: March 22, 2012, 12:00:53 PM »
More evidence that Zimmerman might be violent.

He was involved in domestic-violence petitions with his ex-fiance.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-21/news/os-george-zimmerman-domestic-violence-20120321_1_petitions-documents-injunctions


Was previously arrested (not charged) with assault on a police officer.
http://www.thefloridanewsjournal.com/2012/03/09/sanford-crime-watch-captain-george-zimmerman-did-have-previous-arrest-record-2005-battery


HankB

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #107 on: March 22, 2012, 12:38:47 PM »
The domestic looks like a "he said / she said" event, and the other was "suspicion of battery on a law enforcement officer" which, since, it was dropped, doesn't sound like he slugged a cop. Nothing too damning here.

We still don't know - and I mean KNOW - how the violence actually started. If the violence was initiated by Trayvon, maybe, just maybe, the shoot was justified. But if Zimmerman initiated the violence by grabbing or attempting to restrain the guy and started getting pummeled himself . . . uh uh. I don't know about Florida, but in Texas, if you start a fight with someone, saying you shot them in self defense when you started getting the worst of it won't fly in court.

Still more speculation than fact in this thread, but I'm making a note to myself to stay in my bleeping car if I ever call the police to report a suspicious person in my neighborhood.
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AJ Dual

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #108 on: March 22, 2012, 12:39:34 PM »
Zimmerman is at a minimum, a complete idiot. Probably a fool as well.

As for Trayvon, honestly have no idea. Yes, if Zimmerman hit him first, he absolutely deserves every right to defend himself and hopefully Zimmerman goes to jail for a long time. It won't bring him back, but it'd be some level of justice. If he hit Zimmerman first, even in socially justified manner (ie saying something not polite or whatnot), he initiated the escalation of force and that matters legally. Hitting someone doesn't necessarily justify use of lethal force. If I had no arms and started kicking you in the knees, you'd probably go to jail even under Castle Doctrine if you killed me with a firearm.

Personally, if I was one of the cops, even if it wasn't murder/manslaughter, I'd try hit the guy for at least something minor to take the guy's concealed permit. Zimmerman may or may not be guilty of murder, that is up to the legal system to decide. But he sure as hell used bad judgment that led to a fatal shooting that EASILY COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED. I am fairly sure Florida law likely has a provision to revoke a permit if someone is a bloody idiot. (Yes, yes, I know it'd be written more formally.)

No, this thread does NOT provide some of the strongest ammo to anti-gunners. "Those evil gun-lunatics at APS are hesitant to lynch an idiot."  That is the only ammo provided. No one is questioning the fact that Zimmerman probably used bad judgment. No one is questioning that Zimmerman should have avoided escalating the situation. No one is questioning that it may be a murky shooting. Folks ARE questioning the desire to lynch the guy without access to all of the facts. Yes, SOME evidence is public knowledge. But pretty friggin far from all of them.

Yep.

No doubt Zimmerman is an idiot, first class, A#1 prime grade USDA. I don't think anyone here disputes that.

Stand your ground and just plain older self defense law comes down to who touched who first. Or, if Trayvon was otherwise given a reasonable belief he was in grave danger of bodily harm or cornered trapped, than Zimmerman may be at fault.

We just don't know.

In fact, the courts and DA may never know either, and Zimmerman may walk just through presumption of innocence in the face of a lack of evidence.

Just let the system work. It's in no way guaranteed to deliver satisfactory results, but it's the best we've got, and all the alternatives are worse.
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dogmush

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #109 on: March 22, 2012, 12:43:52 PM »
Just let the system work. It's in no way guaranteed to deliver satisfactory results, but it's the best we've got, and all the alternatives are worse.

This

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #110 on: March 22, 2012, 02:13:07 PM »
Just let the system work. It's in no way guaranteed to deliver satisfactory results, but it's the best we've got, and all the alternatives are worse.

The Holder DOJ is looking to prevent that.
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brimic

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #111 on: March 22, 2012, 02:53:34 PM »
Quote
The Holder DOJ is looking to prevent that.

Well he is in desperate need of a sideshow to take the heat off himself.
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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #112 on: March 22, 2012, 03:23:54 PM »
how does using force on the guy with the drawn gun work out?

if you're at arms length the rule is "rush a gun,run from a knife"
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Balog

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #113 on: March 22, 2012, 03:30:48 PM »
how does using force on the guy with the drawn gun work out?

Better than letting him shoot you without fighting back?
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MicroBalrog

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #114 on: March 22, 2012, 06:01:42 PM »
I suspect Balog has some experience with self-defense against people who'd already had guns drawn.
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Balog

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #115 on: March 22, 2012, 06:36:20 PM »
In all fairness, I always had a rifle on me too so it's not exactly the same. ;)

I dunno, I think of things like VA Tech where one loser with a pistol kills so many people just because no one wants to rush him. We're all gonna die someday. I'd prefer it not be today, but when I go I want to go down swinging.
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Jamie B

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #116 on: March 22, 2012, 08:21:03 PM »
In all fairness, I always had a rifle on me too so it's not exactly the same. ;)

I dunno, I think of things like VA Tech where one loser with a pistol kills so many people just because no one wants to rush him. We're all gonna die someday. I'd prefer it not be today, but when I go I want to go down swinging.

I pray daily that I am able to do the same.
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Jamie B

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #117 on: March 22, 2012, 08:26:13 PM »
Police chief investigating killing of Florida teen steps down

http://news.yahoo.com/florida-police...204033792.html

Quote
SANFORD, Florida (Reuters) - The police chief of a Florida town where an unarmed black teenager was killed by a neighborhood watch volunteer said on Thursday he would temporarily step down from his job, saying his role in the investigation had become too much of a distraction.

Maybe he should spend his time wearing a hoodie, and walking the streets of gated communities at night to see what happens.

He might learn a thing or two.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #118 on: March 22, 2012, 08:40:38 PM »
i think he could learn as much and quicker walking through liberty town at night sans badge and uniform
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #119 on: March 22, 2012, 09:20:24 PM »
I bet he already knows not to walk around in thug-wear.
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LadySmith

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #120 on: March 22, 2012, 09:44:54 PM »
I bet he already knows not to walk around in thug-wear.

I'm sure some politician will get around to suggesting they ban hoodies.


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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #121 on: March 23, 2012, 12:57:22 AM »
The domestic looks like a "he said / she said" event, and the other was "suspicion of battery on a law enforcement officer" which, since, it was dropped, doesn't sound like he slugged a cop. Nothing too damning here.

We still don't know - and I mean KNOW - how the violence actually started. If the violence was initiated by Trayvon, maybe, just maybe, the shoot was justified. But if Zimmerman initiated the violence by grabbing or attempting to restrain the guy and started getting pummeled himself . . . uh uh. I don't know about Florida, but in Texas, if you start a fight with someone, saying you shot them in self defense when you started getting the worst of it won't fly in court.

Still more speculation than fact in this thread, but I'm making a note to myself to stay in my bleeping car if I ever call the police to report a suspicious person in my neighborhood.

I would argue Zimmerman likely started the violence by pursuing Treyvon over an extended period without evidence of a real crime. 

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makattak

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #122 on: March 23, 2012, 01:21:18 AM »
I would argue Zimmerman likely started the violence by pursuing Treyvon over an extended period without evidence of a real crime. 



So following someone is violence now?

It's not a crime to follow someone. In fact I believe the Supreme Court has ruled police don't even need probable cause to follow someone in public.

I didn't know that they were initiating violence when they did so.

And I hate that I have to repeat what I'ge said before, but I'm not saying that Zimmerman is innocent nor that he was wise to follow Martin, simply that following someone is not "starting voilence." Throwing a punch is starting violence, "fighting words" is starting violence. Following someone is not.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 01:25:49 AM by makattak »
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De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #123 on: March 23, 2012, 01:23:27 AM »
And you'd be winning a conviction with that argument, Jamis.

The advice and claims out here about who threw the punch are downright harmful - note to armed citizens: if you chase people down without cause and they reasonably could have believed you to be a threat, you have no right to respond to self defence measures taken by them.

In this case, whether trayvon hit first is not going to decide the case - he could have mangled zimmermans face through entirely lawful self defence, even with a first hit.  

The reason so many here are so far off on the legal analysis is that they're forgetting to consider trayvon's legal rights.  Factor those in and you have a pretty open and shut case from the prosecution side.

And rev disk, when you have Roo ster suggesting that trespassing and wearing a hoodie give reasonable cause for a lethal force encounter, you most certainly are giving ammo to the anti-gunners.  If thatwere actually what self defence meant I'd want the law changed too.
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De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #124 on: March 23, 2012, 01:24:45 AM »
So following someone is violence now?

It's not a crime to follow someone. In fact I believe the Supreme Court has ruled police don't even need probable cause to follow someone in public.

I didn't know that they were initiating violence when they did so.

It is a crime to make someone reasonably fear that you will attack them without justification, which is pretty obviously what Zimmerman did from his tapes.  

Edit: Running after someone who was minding his own business, to the point that he runs away from you, is a crime
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 06:08:34 AM by De Selby »
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