Author Topic: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?  (Read 95572 times)

Jamisjockey

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #125 on: March 23, 2012, 02:11:40 AM »
So following someone is violence now?

It's not a crime to follow someone. In fact I believe the Supreme Court has ruled police don't even need probable cause to follow someone in public.

I didn't know that they were initiating violence when they did so.

And I hate that I have to repeat what I'ge said before, but I'm not saying that Zimmerman is innocent nor that he was wise to follow Martin, simply that following someone is not "starting voilence." Throwing a punch is starting violence, "fighting words" is starting violence. Following someone is not.

The question will be did he merely follow, or actively chase and attempt to detain.  Chase down kid and scare the beejeesus out of him, he might fight like a cornered cat.
How many of us if we were minding our own business and suddenly being chased would sooner or later stop and stand our ground?
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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #126 on: March 23, 2012, 02:23:28 AM »
I'm sure some politician will get around to suggesting they ban hoodies.




I believe this was tried in England, or at least suggested a few yrs ago.
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Jamie B

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #127 on: March 23, 2012, 03:33:37 AM »
And rev disk, when you have Roo ster suggesting that trespassing and wearing a hoodie give reasonable cause for a lethal force encounter, you most certainly are giving ammo to the anti-gunners.  If thatwere actually what self defence meant I'd want the law changed too.

De Selby-

From re-reading the entire thread, you have come across as the penchant anti-gunner by far.
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De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #128 on: March 23, 2012, 06:10:44 AM »
De Selby-

From re-reading the entire thread, you have come across as the penchant anti-gunner by far.

How is that???  Because I don't think playing cops and robbers and accidentally killing someone as a result is ok?
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makattak

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #129 on: March 23, 2012, 07:58:42 AM »
The question will be did he merely follow, or actively chase and attempt to detain.  Chase down kid and scare the beejeesus out of him, he might fight like a cornered cat.
How many of us if we were minding our own business and suddenly being chased would sooner or later stop and stand our ground?

And...

And you'd be winning a conviction with that argument, Jamis.

The advice and claims out here about who threw the punch are downright harmful - note to armed citizens: if you chase people down without cause and they reasonably could have believed you to be a threat, you have no right to respond to self defence measures taken by them.

In this case, whether trayvon hit first is not going to decide the case - he could have mangled zimmermans face through entirely lawful self defence, even with a first hit.  

The reason so many here are so far off on the legal analysis is that they're forgetting to consider trayvon's legal rights.  Factor those in and you have a pretty open and shut case from the prosecution side.

And rev disk, when you have Roo ster suggesting that trespassing and wearing a hoodie give reasonable cause for a lethal force encounter, you most certainly are giving ammo to the anti-gunners.  If thatwere actually what self defence meant I'd want the law changed too.

And I would say that the advice from those defending Mr. Martin's actions is more dangerous.

I have repeatedly said that Mr. Zimmerman was foolish to follow after Mr. Martin. (AND I don't really know how to emphasize that enough since the Martin supporters seem to think everyone opposed to them is saying "Good shoot. Open and shut case!")

You and Jamis, however, seem to be saying that you would justified in assaulting someone for the mere act of following you.

Pointing this out, I have forced the both of you to amend that to "chasing down and attempting to detain". That is a SIGNIFICANTLY different action than "following". I don't think the fact that he was following him is in dispute. Whether he "chased him down" or "attempted to detain" him is. Which is what most of us not calling for Mr. Zimmerman to be strung up on the nearest tree are saying.

Further, even if you have been "chased down and attempted to be restrained" you are not allowed to continue your assault on your follower after you have ended the threat. Once you have ended the threat you are now the assaulter if you, for instance, jump on top of your assailant and continue to beat him.

Once again, I must point out that I am not saying that is what occured. I am, however, saying that is yet another matter where we don't have all the facts.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #130 on: March 23, 2012, 08:10:10 AM »
The tragic problem is that it is often difficult for people to act reasonably during what they believe to be a violent encounter.

For example if I am attacked and I shoot my attacker, the threat might be already over - but from my perspective, he's still moving and standing and maybe he's reaching for a gun - so I shoot him several times in the space of a few seconds. Yes, from a later video analysis it will be shown that he was no longer a threat by the time the last shot entered his body.

Or in a fist-fight it is possible for a person to get punched or kicked several times after they're no longer a threat.

This is why:

1. People should avoid getting into a violent encounter unless they have a damn good reason to do so.
2. Police, prosecutors, and judges should not attempt to nitpick every moment of a self-defense encounter from the confines of an air-conditioned room.

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De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #131 on: March 23, 2012, 08:15:58 AM »
Mak, this is bizarre - have you listened to the tapes???   Zimmerman says "these a holes always get away!" just before you hear him start to breath heavily - as if running.  I don't think it's unfair to take his own words as evidence of what he was doing.

Perhaps Zimmerman got all his advice on self defence law from the "shoot trespassers!" crowd on gun forums; that might explain why he thought this was a good idea.  

Had he spoken to a real lawyer (that category includes me, btw) and discussed this scenario, he might not be facing certain indictment and highly probable conviction today.  Some of the claims haunting the forums about self defence law right now are so wrong headed it's scary.

Chasing people for no good reason while armed isn't just bad policy or a screw up; it's usually going to be a crime, and it will be a serious crime when you end up shooting someone as a result.  
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HankB

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #132 on: March 23, 2012, 09:00:59 AM »
There's a lot of speculation out there . . . and not just on this forum. One story I read (on the Internet, so it must be true, right?) claims that Zimmerman had some sort of a wound on the back of his head, which would be consistent with being struck from behind as he was walking or running away. This could change the whole dynamic of the encounter, and the ultimate legal result.

Is this account true? I don't know. Any more than I know whether or not Zimmerman tried to illegally detain someone just for being a black guy in the "wrong" neighborhood.

What little we actually know doesn't show Zimmerman in a good light - at all. At best, he showed poor judgement, but there won't be enough evidence for criminal charges. At worst - some solid evidence will come to light and he'll be facing murder charges.

But it seems that some folks have already decided who's 100% at fault and what the legal outcome ought to be without having enough actual facts or evidence to make an informed conclusion.
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zahc

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #133 on: March 23, 2012, 09:05:16 AM »
They had some lawyer on the radio last night who made the point that the 911 operators "we don't need you to do that" comment was not a lawful police order; it wasn't even coming from a police officer, and it's unlikely a police officer could even make such a lawful order over the phone. Could the prosecution possibly use it to show Zimmerman had poor judgement? I don't know, but people are putting too much on the 911 comment. If I ever call 911 and the operator tries to give me friendly advice I will most likely ignore that too.
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De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #134 on: March 23, 2012, 09:13:03 AM »

There's a lot of speculation out there . . . and not just on this forum. One story I read (on the Internet, so it must be true, right?) claims that Zimmerman had some sort of a wound on the back of his head, which would be consistent with being struck from behind as he was walking or running away. This could change the whole dynamic of the encounter, and the ultimate legal result.

Is this account true? I don't know. Any more than I know whether or not Zimmerman tried to illegally detain someone just for being a black guy in the "wrong" neighborhood.

What little we actually know doesn't show Zimmerman in a good light - at all. At best, he showed poor judgement, but there won't be enough evidence for criminal charges. At worst - some solid evidence will come to light and he'll be facing murder charges.

But it seems that some folks have already decided who's 100% at fault and what the legal outcome ought to be without having enough actual facts or evidence to make an informed conclusion.m


The tapes are enough to convict him - there basically is no defence available to him, that is my point.  Even if trayvon was hiding in the bushes and attacked him by surprise - that will reduce his sentence, it won't work to keep him out of jail.

The tapes are a great lesson in what not to do for ccwers - you can't do what he did and remain within the law.

Zahc, it's true that the 911 "order" isn't that significant - its the chase to someone who wasnt doing anything wrong thats the problem
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Seenterman

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #135 on: March 23, 2012, 10:04:05 AM »
Quote
You and Jamis, however, seem to be saying that you would justified in assaulting someone for the mere act of following you.

Pointing this out, I have forced the both of you to amend that to "chasing down and attempting to detain". That is a SIGNIFICANTLY different action than "following". I don't think the fact that he was following him is in dispute. Whether he "chased him down" or "attempted to detain" him is.

Well at what point does following become a chase? After Zimmerman was observing Trayvon for a bit he comments to the 911 dispatcher that Trayvon was running and that he was following. Isn't following someone who is running a chase at that point?

According to Zimmerman he was attacked from behind when he stopped his car to check the street he was on. How does the person you where following end up behind you? How did the fight end up in someone's backyard if you where jumped on the street?

AmbulanceDriver

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #136 on: March 23, 2012, 10:07:25 AM »
?
Mak, this is bizarre - have you listened to the tapes???   Zimmerman says "these a holes always get away!" just before you hear him start to breath heavily - as if running.  I don't think it's unfair to take his own words as evidence of what he was doing.

De Selby -

You are making the ASSUMPTION that his breathing heavily means he was running after Mr. Martin.  What if Zimmerman's comment about them, "always getting away," meant that Zimmerman had lost him, and was jogging back to his car?  

Your damning of Mr. Zimmerman comes solely from conjecture and assumption.  WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.  You have your interpretation of the tapes.  That is all the "evidence" you have.  Right now, the only FACTS we have are that Zimmerman was following Martin.  Zimmerman at some point was injured (head laceration). And Martin was shot.  

Beyond that it is merely speculation, and as an attorney, you should know just how much weight speculation carries in a court of law.

No one here is saying this was a good shoot.  Zimmerman made several mistakes.  The first of which was getting out of his car to confront Martin.  No one is defending Zimmerman's mistakes.  In fact, I think the only thing here that everyone agrees on is that his decision to confront Martin was really, really STUPID.

What we are saying is that until he is proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury of his peers, he is innocent.  Is he smart?  Not at all.  Did he make good decisions?  Absolutely not.  Can we use him as a poster boy for bad decision making?  You bet.  

Did he commit a crime?   WE DON'T KNOW YET.

NO ONE here is saying this is a totally good shoot that we can stand behind.  But until we have more evidence (not conjecture, or speculation, or assumption), we simply cannot say one way or the other.  
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brimic

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #137 on: March 23, 2012, 10:21:21 AM »
Quote
1. People should avoid getting into a violent encounter unless they have a damn good reason to do so.
2. Police, prosecutors, people on the internetz, and judges should not attempt to nitpick every moment of a self-defense encounter from the confines of an air-conditioned room

Had to add that in.
---------------------------------
One of the major problems is that different people want to have the incident to have happened in a way that fits their own personal worldview and prejudices.

From observing and taking part in discussions on this incident on several other sites, it seems that anti-gunners and race-baiters everywhere seem to have already tried Zimmermann and found him guilty, while those who are just a bit worried about having their rights taken away in a knee-jerk reaction from politicians are reluctantly defending Zimmermann, or at least asking others to keep a cool head until all the facts were known.

« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 10:31:15 AM by brimic »
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Jamie B

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #138 on: March 23, 2012, 10:47:29 AM »
How is that???  Because I don't think playing cops and robbers and accidentally killing someone as a result is ok?

?
De Selby -


Your damning of Mr. Zimmerman comes solely from conjecture and assumption.  WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.  You have your interpretation of the tapes.  That is all the "evidence" you have.  Right now, the only FACTS we have are that Zimmerman was following Martin.  Zimmerman at some point was injured (head laceration). And Martin was shot. 

Beyond that it is merely speculation, and as an attorney, you should know just how much weight speculation carries in a court of law.

NO ONE here is saying this is a totally good shoot that we can stand behind.  But until we have more evidence (not conjecture, or speculation, or assumption), we simply cannot say one way or the other. 

No, De Selby, due to Ambulance Driver's observations here, to which I concur.

You automatically crucified Zimmerman by assuming the worse of his actions.
You also immediately exonerated the kid at the same time.

Right now I, and most of the others here I believe, are throwing around some speculations, but are withholding final judgement until more evidence facts are available.

I like the fact that we can chew through different possible scenarios and results without the crucifixion.
Your comments have struck me as argumentative since you seem to have fixated on one solution from the beginning, and chastise those who don't share your beliefs.
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Balog

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #139 on: March 23, 2012, 11:24:33 AM »
Had to add that in.
---------------------------------
One of the major problems is that different people want to have the incident to have happened in a way that fits their own personal worldview and prejudices.

From observing and taking part in discussions on this incident on several other sites, it seems that anti-gunners and race-baiters everywhere seem to have already tried Zimmermann and found him guilty, while those who are just a bit worried about having their rights taken away in a knee-jerk reaction from politicians are reluctantly defending Zimmermann, or at least asking others to keep a cool head until all the facts were known.




Pretty much this. There's nothing on this thread that really pertains to the case, it's just a good view into the various posters thoughts. Annoyingly, De Selby's version is the most likely based on the totality of evidence we have. A lot of the, shall we say, more fanciful hypothetical versions others are positing that would reduce Zimmerman's culpability are certainly possible, but not very likely. Also, hasn't the "fighting words" idea been ruled as not a valid thing?

On the trespass thing, I think it's worth noting that there are degrees just as there are in all crimes. I was walking my dogs the other day and one of them pooped on a neighbors lawn. When I stepped onto that lawn to pick it up I suppose I was technically trespassing. If some guy with a gun jumped out of his car, ran up on me, and started shouting angry demands to know what I was doing I'd be inclined to feel a bit threatened myself... Edit: and I was wearing a hoodie at the time! /gasp
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 11:29:42 AM by Balog »
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agricola

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #140 on: March 23, 2012, 11:47:42 AM »
From observing and taking part in discussions on this incident on several other sites, it seems that anti-gunners and race-baiters everywhere seem to have already tried Zimmermann and found him guilty, while those who are just a bit worried about having their rights taken away in a knee-jerk reaction from politicians are reluctantly defending Zimmermann, or at least asking others to keep a cool head until all the facts were known.

TBF I think the worst thing about this is that it seems that it took a scandal in order to have this lads death investigated appropriately, its allowed various people to use this for their own ends (the daft demands for this law to be repealed for instance, even though from what Zimmerman apparently did and how the law has been described over here its hard to see how he could ever claim a defence under it) and will probably mean that the truth of what happened will end up being drowned out by all the shouting.
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TommyGunn

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #141 on: March 23, 2012, 11:51:21 AM »
The tapes are enough to convict him - there basically is no defence available to him, that is my point.  Even if trayvon was hiding in the bushes and attacked him by surprise - that will reduce his sentence, it won't work to keep him out of jail.

The tapes are a great lesson in what not to do for ccwers - you can't do what he did and remain within the law.

Zahc, it's true that the 911 "order" isn't that significant - its the chase to someone who wasnt doing anything wrong thats the problem

Before you make such grandiose statements you might recall the O.J. Simpson trial.  He had "no defense" available to him, right?
Wrong.

Zommerman isn't O.J. for sure.  The tapes may or may not work for Zimmerman.  Before you write Zimmerman's legal epitaph you might take a lesson from Sherlock Holmes;
"Any fact, when viewed from a different perspective, will yield a different interpretation."

Now, you want to tell me again how a good defense lawyer couldn't "interpret" those tapes and make something out for Zimmermman?  


It isn't always just about the facts .... it's also what a clever lawyer can convince a jury to believe about said facts.
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Jamie B

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #142 on: March 23, 2012, 12:16:00 PM »
Before you make such grandiose statements you might recall the O.J. Simpson trial.  He had "no defense" available to him, right?
Wrong.
"If the glove don't fit you must acquit!"

Holy *expletive deleted*it! There is a real world gut check!
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TommyGunn

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #143 on: March 23, 2012, 12:38:31 PM »
Holy *expletive deleted*it! There is a real world gut check!


I was thinking more like a real world ****-up.   

Are you implying it can't happen again? [popcorn] ;/
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longeyes

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #144 on: March 23, 2012, 12:59:57 PM »
The worst of this case--in which I suspect justice will ultimately be done--is the way it is already being exploited by all the expected political provocateurs.  The Castle Doctrine is not the issue here.  Nor is white racism.  Nor are gun rights.  There are people out there, and some in high places, who would just as soon ban guns and white people, not necessarily in that order.  There is so much hypocrisy in all this, dramatized by someone like Al Sharpton being anywhere near the venue.  Maybe one of these days we will hear about all the "hate crimes" committed by young blacks on whites in highly disproportionate rates and how those stories are routinely covered up.  I'm not holding my breath.  We have a band of twisted zealots who would like nothing better than a real, all-out race war in America, and we'd better zero in on them and not on isolated tragic incidents if we don't want this great country to burn up.
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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #145 on: March 23, 2012, 01:10:54 PM »

I was thinking more like a real world ****-up.   

Are you implying it can't happen again? [popcorn] ;/

No! That is can and does regularly.
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Scout26

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #146 on: March 23, 2012, 01:37:39 PM »
I hate it when I have to agree with DeSelby.

Up until Zimmerman confronted him, Martin had broken no laws (not even trespass, as he apparently was staying with relatives who live in the gated community.)


Zimmerman initiated the confrontation, by getting out of his truck.  Period. End. Full Stop.  Martin had every right to stand his ground (even though apparently he did try to flee, indicating that he was in some fear of his life or great bodily harm).

Zimmerman was completely in the wrong no matter who hit whom first.  



Do we not teach our kids to be fearful of strangers?  Especially ones following them in cars?

Do we not teach them to try to get away from someone trying to grab or detain them?

Do we not teach them to use every means necessary (punch, kick, bite, claw) to escape from someone trying to hurt or grab them?



So put yourself Martin's position and tell me again what he did wrong.
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brimic

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #147 on: March 23, 2012, 01:51:22 PM »
Quote
I hate it when I have to agree with DeSelby.

Up until Zimmerman confronted him, Martin had broken no laws (not even trespass, as he apparently was staying with relatives who live in the gated community.)


Zimmerman initiated the confrontation, by getting out of his truck.  Period. End. Full Stop.  Martin had every right to stand his ground (even though apparently he did try to flee, indicating that he was in some fear of his life or great bodily harm).

Zimmerman was completely in the wrong no matter who hit whom first. 



Do we not teach our kids to be fearful of strangers?  Especially ones following them in cars?

Do we not teach them to try to get away from someone trying to grab or detain them?

Do we not teach them to use every means necessary (punch, kick, bite, claw) to escape from someone trying to hurt or grab them?



So put yourself Martin's position and tell me again what he did wrong.
Based on what we do know, and its very little, that is completely correct.

Unless the police are wholely incompetent, and I don't belive that is the case, (there's that 'belief' word again) Zimmermann would be in custody a long time ago unless there is something the police know that we don't.
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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #148 on: March 23, 2012, 02:02:11 PM »
I hate it when I have to agree with DeSelby.

Up until Zimmerman confronted him, Martin had broken no laws (not even trespass, as he apparently was staying with relatives who live in the gated community.)


Zimmerman initiated the confrontation, by getting out of his truck.  Period. End. Full Stop.  Martin had every right to stand his ground (even though apparently he did try to flee, indicating that he was in some fear of his life or great bodily harm).

Scout, I agree with you right up to this point.  

None of these facts is in dispute.  The part that remains to be established is what happened after this point.   Zimmerman's account (as best as I can find) is that Martin eluded him, then as Zimmerman was returning to his vehicle, he was jumped by Martin.  

This is the crux of the issue.  And this is what a grand jury, and ultimately (I believe) a jury will be asked to decide.  

IF (and I agree it's a mighty big if) the facts are as Zimmerman states, that he was returning to his vehicle after losing Martin and was jumped, then I believe this is a good shoot.  If the facts are not as he states, then he's in deep kimshi....
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brimic

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #149 on: March 23, 2012, 02:13:02 PM »
The emotional side.
This might be obvious to some, and taboo to talk about by others...
We have a very photogenic and handsome young black man with what looks like a squeaky clean record that that was killed while getting candy by a gun wielding ogerish-looking (as depicted by media at least) whitish-hispanic male on a rampage with a germanic surname.

This incident is the mass media's wettest dream which gives them way more than a tingle down their collective legs.
They've drawn political cartoons in the past about such ideas, but they now have it in the flesh.
A person's appearance does have a very big impact when on trial whether in a legal court or in the court of public opinion.



Edit: The Narcissist in Chief agrees with me:
"My main message is to the parents of Trayvon Martin. You know, if I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon. And you know, I think they are right to expect that all of us as Americans are going to take this with the seriousness it deserves and that we're get to the bottom of exactly what happened," Obama said in response to a shouted question in the White House Rose Garden.

Amid angry charges that race played a central role in the tragedy, Obama said "all of us have to do some soul searching to figure out how does something like this happen—and that means that we examine the laws and the context for what happened as well as the specifics of the incident."

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/obama-had-son-d-look-trayvon-144936867.html


« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 02:21:53 PM by brimic »
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