Author Topic: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?  (Read 95899 times)

Ron

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2012, 09:53:18 PM »
Maybe, just maybe, the wound was self-inflicted.....

At the very least the whole episode was self inflicted.

If the cops have an iced tea bottle with blood matching Zimmerman or some such thing, maybe skinned knuckles and traces of Zimmermans blood then one could understand why he hasn't been charged.

Right now for better or worse I'm giving the cops the benefit of the doubt NOT Zimmerman.
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brimic

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2012, 09:58:28 PM »
 [popcorn]
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Chester32141

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2012, 11:21:47 PM »

I may be cynical but I totally discount the girlfriend's testimony about the last part of her phone conversation w/ the deceased.  It appears she waited 2-3 weeks to come forward with testimony that is very damning to the shooter.   Doesn't pass the smell test.  Right or wrong I don't think Zimmerman has a chance of not doing time in the current racially charged political environment.  He could be Mother Teresa and Eric Holder's justice department would find him in the wrong. 

 [popcorn]
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TommyGunn

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2012, 01:07:16 AM »
Quote from: TommyGunn
One report I heard stated that Zimmerman had a bloody injury.   Could it be .... just maybe ..... this "kid" was doing more than just "walking home?"
Maybe, just maybe, the wound was self-inflicted.....

At this point, given the information available (or atleast what purports to be "information") this is one possibility. 
This is turning into a really nasty situation..... I think Zimmerman is in for a pasting in court, rightly or wrongly.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2012, 02:10:13 AM »
From De Selby's commentary, we glean certain facts about the gated communities of Australia.

1. In Australia's gated communities, a kid walking down the sidewalk is obviously an innocent with a right to be there.

2. In Australia's gated communities, a member of the neighborhood watch driving down the street is obviously a weirdo following kids around.

3. In Australia's gated communities, a 17-year-old in excess of six feet in height is obviously a kid, even when wearing a hood. In the dark.


Is it the same in Florida? We shall see.
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De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2012, 02:43:14 AM »
Yeah, fistful, you're operating as if we have no facts about what was happening, when we do - we know for a fact the kid (described as a teenager by the suspect on his 911 call, FYI) had a right to be there, we have the recorded words of the suspect following him, we have 50 or so previous 911 calls suggesting that Zimmerman is a weirdo, and we have testimony from someone who was on the phone with the "late teens" (quoting Zimmerman) victim at the time he was killed.

I've spent much more time in America than Australia, but I've been here long enough to know that you'd be laughed out of the pub for even calling 911 under the circumstances.  Weirdo is a reasonable conclusion to draw no matter which side of the pacific you're on.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 02:47:38 AM by De Selby »
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Jamie B

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2012, 07:26:47 AM »
Maybe, just maybe, the wound was self-inflicted.....


At this point, given the information available (or atleast what purports to be "information") this is one possibility. 
This is turning into a really nasty situation..... I think Zimmerman is in for a pasting in court, rightly or wrongly.

Zimmerman is completely toast in court.
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Ron

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2012, 07:35:11 AM »
Can the Feds charge him while the local or state declines?

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De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #58 on: March 21, 2012, 07:54:54 AM »
Can the Feds charge him while the local or state declines?



The feds can charge him even if the locals convict him.  They just have to find jurisdiction to do it, which would be tough without further evidence.
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/20/10780286-florida-stand-your-ground-law-could-complicate-trayvon-martin-teen-shooting-case

Looks like some of the local defence attorneys are seeing the same problems I am: 
Quote
Richard Hornsby, an Orlando-based criminal defense attorney, says he thinks the grand jury is likely to indict Zimmerman for manslaughter, a second-degree felony punishable by up to 15 years in prison. Less likely is a more serious charge of second-degree murder, a crime that implies intent and that is punishable by up to life in prison, he said.
“This case isn’t even a close call to me. This is a case of a guy trying to be a vigilante,” Hornsby said. “It wasn’t like he was trying to avoid trouble. He brought a firearm to a fistfight.”
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

RoadKingLarry

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #59 on: March 21, 2012, 08:10:56 AM »
I suspect that even if this was a good shoot the shooter is going down in the name of racial harmony.
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Jamie B

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #60 on: March 21, 2012, 08:42:53 AM »




Looks like some of the local defence attorneys are seeing the same problems I am: 

I don't care what a local defense attorney thinks.
He has no more information than the rest of us.
He is simply looking for free advertising for his business.
Grasp at straws much?
Greatness lies not in being strong, but in the right use of strength - Henry Ward Beecher

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De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #61 on: March 21, 2012, 08:48:16 AM »


I don't care what a local defense attorney thinks.
He has no more information than the rest of us.
He is simply looking for free advertising for his business.
Grasp at straws much?

??? How does saying 'This guy is toast, it's an easy case for the prosecution' advertise a defence lawyer's business?

From my lawyering eyes, this guy is in huge trouble if all you consider are direct quotes and voice recordings.  A little more investigating (i.e., what he said to his friends, identifying who was crying for help on the tape, clarifying whether he actually said "f*****g c***ns" as cleaned up audio on the web suggests during the assault...), and it's time to work out a plea.

This is my point - the information we have, excluding summaries of the rentacops history, focusing only on his own recorded words and direct quotes from witnesses (some recorded on 911 tapes) makes the case, to quote at least one FL licensed attorney, "not even close."
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MechAg94

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #62 on: March 21, 2012, 08:49:54 AM »
At the very least the whole episode was self inflicted.

If the cops have an iced tea bottle with blood matching Zimmerman or some such thing, maybe skinned knuckles and traces of Zimmermans blood then one could understand why he hasn't been charged.

Right now for better or worse I'm giving the cops the benefit of the doubt NOT Zimmerman.
THe comments I hear this morning mention that they may just be waiting to be sure they have a solid case before proceeding with charges.  I heard they have a few different interviews with the guy so it sounds like he is saying the right things to justify himself and they need to gather other evidence if they want to convict him.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #63 on: March 21, 2012, 09:45:51 AM »
The information we do have is that Zimmerman chased and then confronted the kid, in a situation where as far as we can tell the kid had the legal right to be there.
From there, things went sideways.
Zimmerman put himself in the situation.  Even if in the end, the homocide was justifiable, he put himself in that situation.
I rarely side with DS.  But comeon.  From the information that is out there, this smells like a turd.
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grampster

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2012, 09:57:31 AM »
This thread should be closed for the time being.  There is more heat than light.  When ALL the facts are known, a discussion might be worthwhile.  At the moment, imho, it isn't.
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red headed stranger

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2012, 10:46:32 AM »
Quote
Zimmerman put himself in the situation.  Even if in the end, the homocide was justifiable, he put himself in that situation.

This is pretty much my thoughts on the matter. 

IF Zimmerman's story is 100% true, it is still true that he sought out a confrontation, and had a part in escalating it. While he may be completely in the clear legally, he handled it very poorly. 
Those who learn from history are doomed to watch others repeat it

Jamie B

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #66 on: March 21, 2012, 10:56:20 AM »
??? How does saying 'This guy is toast, it's an easy case for the prosecution' advertise a defence lawyer's business?


Because he is rendering an uneducated opinion to the press without all of the facts.
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Seenterman

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #67 on: March 21, 2012, 11:07:07 AM »
Well its obvious the kid attacked a guy who had 100lbs on! Kids in hoodies are all obviously criminals and guys with guns never start confrontations. They are always polite and soft spoken.

I mean come on!

And the way the police handled the investigation, Top notch!

They sent out a narcotics detective instead of a homicide detective. They never made an effort to contact the person (his girlfriend) Trayvon was on the phone with at the time of the confrontation. They didn't run any drug or alcohol test on Zimmerman as is standard procedure in death investigations (according to the news), but they did drug test the dead kid! Oh they didn't find anything but they drug tested the dead kid! Police officer corrects a witness after they claim to have heard Trayvon scream for help, silly witness it was Zimmerman; criminals don't scream for help.

That one 911 call where someone is screaming "Help" like their being bloody murdered for 40 seconds before the shot was obviously Zimmerman, no sense in actually attempting to figure it out even though Trayvon's mother claims it's him screaming for help. Shes obviously a liar.

TommyGunn

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2012, 11:18:47 AM »
Yeah, fistful, you're operating as if we have no facts about what was happening, when we do - we know for a fact the kid (described as a teenager by the suspect on his 911 call, FYI) had a right to be there, we have the recorded words of the suspect following him, we have 50 or so previous 911 calls suggesting that Zimmerman is a weirdo, and we have testimony from someone who was on the phone with the "late teens" (quoting Zimmerman) victim at the time he was killed.

I've spent much more time in America than Australia, but I've been here long enough to know that you'd be laughed out of the pub for even calling 911 under the circumstances.  Weirdo is a reasonable conclusion to draw no matter which side of the pacific you're on.

DeSelby, we have no facts.  We have only what is reported in the media.  Last week the news reported Zimmerman was a "right wing fanatic."   Those reports disappeared fairly quickly.
Zimmerman hasn't been tried and convicted yet.
While I would agree that Zimmerman showed a profound lack of good judgement (based on MEDIA REPORTS) I am holding off "convicting" him by about the breadth of a gnat's hair.
Having a "right to be there" is immaterial to the matter.  It does not prove that the deceased was not doing anything else that was wrong.  We just don't have any evidence (good evidence, atleast) that he WAS doing anything wrong.
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Balog

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2012, 11:20:53 AM »
I hate siding with De Selby, but come on... The man (teen/kid/whatever you want to call it) was on a sidwalk, minding his own business, and got accosted by someone with a pretty obvious wannabe renta cop attitude.

So many are accusing the media of kneejerk reactions, while at the same time making equally baseless and kneejerk reactions. "ZOMG black guy got shot, he must be a thug and the innocent gun owner is getting railroaded!!!!!eleventyone!!!"

I know media reports are biased and horridly inaccurate, but guees what? Fanciful scenarios made up by guys on gun boards trying desperately to find a way to justify the actions of the shooter aren't really any more credible.
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Jamie B

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #70 on: March 21, 2012, 11:23:12 AM »
DeSelby, we have no facts.  We have only what is reported in the media.  Last week the news reported Zimmerman was a "right wing fanatic."   Those reports disappeared fairly quickly.

Ding, ding, ding!!!!!! Correctomundo!
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makattak

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #71 on: March 21, 2012, 11:23:21 AM »
Well its obvious the kid attacked a guy who had 100lbs on! Kids in hoodies are all obviously criminals and guys with guns never start confrontations. They are always polite and soft spoken.

I mean come on!

And the way the police handled the investigation, Top notch!

They sent out a narcotics detective instead of a homicide detective. They never made an effort to contact the person (his girlfriend) Trayvon was on the phone with at the time of the confrontation. They didn't run any drug or alcohol test on Zimmerman as is standard procedure in death investigations (according to the news), but they did drug test the dead kid! Oh they didn't find anything but they drug tested the dead kid! Police officer corrects a witness after they claim to have heard Trayvon scream for help, silly witness it was Zimmerman; criminals don't scream for help.

That one 911 call where someone is screaming "Help" like their being bloody murdered for 40 seconds before the shot was obviously Zimmerman, no sense in actually attempting to figure it out even though Trayvon's mother claims it's him screaming for help. Shes obviously a liar.


You have documentation for this? And, if sending a narcotics officer is true, I'm willing to bet he was the first one on scene because he had already been dispatched to deal with a "suspicious person". Of course, it's so much easier to just claim that the cops were biased because the deceased was hispanic. Oh, wait, no the shooter was hispanic, the deceased was black. Sorry, I forgot the hierarchy of aggreived minorities.

My opinion is that Zimmerman made a mistake getting out of his car. (Apparently whether he confronted the deceased is not confirmed.) He should not have done so and that undoubtedly led to the death of Martin. (Also, I note you are using the deceased's first name while using the last name of the shooter. Interesting.)

All we have, confirmed, is that the shooter got out of the car, there was an altercation, and the deceased was shot.

I believe there is a 911 tape of the entire event. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) If that is that case, all we have to do is wait for the tapes.

As Mr. Zimmerman has not yet been arrested, I am willing to give some credence that there is evidence he acted in self-defense even though he stupidly placed himself in the position to necessitate it.

I don't understand the righteous indignation going on here- am I mistaken that there is a 911 recording? Otherwise, why get so angry when the entire incident is at least recorded on audio?
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TommyGunn

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2012, 11:25:58 AM »
Zimmerman is completely toast in court.

Very much so.
Trust me I am not wasting grief on Zimmerman.  At the very least he showed remarkably poor judgement.
One consistent fact reported in every story is that he left his car and followed the deceased against advice given him by the 911 operator.  That advice may not carry the weight of law but, really, no one can think Zimmerman made a smart decision and whatever happened, right or wrong, followed as a result of this one really bad decision.
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Tallpine

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2012, 11:49:22 AM »
Joe Horn, Part II   ???
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Seenterman

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2012, 12:04:34 PM »
Quote
You have documentation for this? And, if sending a narcotics officer is true, I'm willing to bet he was the first one on scene because he had already been dispatched to deal with a "suspicious person". Of course, it's so much easier to just claim that the cops were biased because the deceased was hispanic. Oh, wait, no the shooter was hispanic, the deceased was black. Sorry, I forgot the hierarchy of aggreived minorities.

I can't find the article including the details about the detective now, maybe I can find it when I go home. I didn't say the police where bias, I just pointed out the many ways in which they screwed up their initial investigation. But if you want to bring race into this there's this.

Quote
The officer in charge of the scene of Trayvon’s shooting was involved in another case that drew attention in 2010, in which a police lieutenant’s son was videotaped attacking a black homeless man. The same officer who has not arrested Zimmerman failed initially to arrest the police lieutenant’s son in the earlier case. The attacker was later arrested when local channel WFTV broke the news of the incident.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/mar2012/mart-m21.shtml

I mean if the officer was racist he obviously would hate all minorities equally its not like racism could be illogical.


Quote
I believe there is a 911 tape of the entire event. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) If that is that case, all we have to do is wait for the tapes.

The tapes already out. In one of the multiple 911 calls you can hear someone screaming help for 40 seconds before the shot. Zimmerman claims it him, Trayvons parents identified it as Trayvon, at least one witness said it was Trayvon. Considering its been what three weeks since the shooting you'd think the police would seriously try to figure out who's voice it was on the tape. If it was Zimmermans well that backs up him story, but if it was Trayvon, well it may just be the evidence we need to have Zimmerman arrested.

It seems to plenty of people online are mad because of the apparent lack of investigation done by Florida police. Why would they not test the shooter for drugs and alcohol, but make sure to test the deceased?  Why not call Trayvon's girl friend when phone records obtained by ABC show they where on the phone at the time of the confrontation. Seriously ABC can do a better investigation that FL police, three weeks after the fact in a homicide investigation? That's pathetic.