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Author Topic: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?  (Read 14585 times)
gunsmith
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« Reply #75 on: March 21, 2012, 09:08:29 AM »

I can't find the article including the details about the detective now, maybe I can find it when I go home. I didn't say the police where bias, I just pointed out the many ways in which they screwed up their initial investigation. But if you want to bring race into this there's this.

I mean if the officer was racist he obviously would hate all minorities equally its not like racism could be illogical.


The tapes already out. In one of the multiple 911 calls you can hear someone screaming help for 40 seconds before the shot. Zimmerman claims it him, Trayvons parents identified it as Trayvon, at least one witness said it was Trayvon. Considering its been what three weeks since the shooting you'd think the police would seriously try to figure out who's voice it was on the tape. If it was Zimmermans well that backs up him story, but if it was Trayvon, well it may just be the evidence we need to have Zimmerman arrested.

It seems to plenty of people online are mad because of the apparent lack of investigation done by Florida police. Why would they not test the shooter for drugs and alcohol, but make sure to test the deceased?  Why not call Trayvon's girl friend when phone records obtained by ABC show they where on the phone at the time of the confrontation. Seriously ABC can do a better investigation that FL police, three weeks after the fact in a homicide investigation? That's pathetic.


Rule number one: Don't bust the Lt's son.

Maybe the media can do a better investigation, but the police have o do one that can stand up in Court.

What probable cause can the PD cite for testing the shooter for drugs?

What eye witnesses are there? Are they all "I heard" witnesses? like I was in my bedroom watching TV and I heard yelling and a gunshot?
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« Reply #76 on: March 21, 2012, 10:28:44 AM »

Quote
Maybe the media can do a better investigation, but the police have o do one that can stand up in Court.
The question is, Have they been investigating? Why did no one from FL call the girl friend or reach out to her in the three weeks since the shooting. Don't you think that's a bit long in a homicide investigation? Doesn't seem like FL is doing much.
Quote
What probable cause can the PD cite for testing the shooter for drugs?
Isn't that standard in a shooting investigation? I honestly don't know but from what I read in the news reports it is; but wasn't done in this case. Further more why drug test the victim? What reason did they have for that?
Quote
What eye witnesses are there? Are they all "I heard" witnesses? like I was in my bedroom watching TV and I heard yelling and a gunshot?
Did I say eye witness? No I said witness if there's another word for an "I heard" witness, please let me know.
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MechAg94
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« Reply #77 on: March 21, 2012, 10:38:32 AM »

Did I say eye witness? No I said witness if there's another word for an "I heard" witness, please let me know.
Myself, I would call them "Not a Witness", but that is just me.  Saying you heard something, but didn't see it doesn't mean much and wouldn't mean a great deal to me as a juror. 
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« Reply #78 on: March 21, 2012, 10:40:27 AM »

how do they compel one to be drug tested?  unless of course one is a cop or some other profession where its mandated.

i do wonder if he had "a couple beers"
manys the time i've heard how "a couple beers" doesn't make me impaired
how much impairment does it take to make a bad call like this?


so far all we have is hearsay from the girl  until she is deposed
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« Reply #79 on: March 21, 2012, 10:45:19 AM »

now this is a witness

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1pQ0Xgz9R

  A man who witnessed part of the altercation contacted authorities.

"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.

"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1pmKFR5mk
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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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fistful
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« Reply #80 on: March 21, 2012, 12:01:08 PM »

Yeah, fistful, you're operating as if we have no facts about what was happening, when we do...

Nope. I was talking about how Zimmerman and Martin saw each other at the time, in response to your own assessment of same.
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De Selby
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« Reply #81 on: March 21, 2012, 04:01:50 PM »

Nope. I was talking about how Zimmerman and Martin saw each other at the time, in response to your own assessment of same.


Yeah, we have a recording of zimmermans own words on that subject,  and a first hand account of trayvon's.

There is evidence in public folks.   Ignore the media and listen to the tapes.
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Jamie B
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« Reply #82 on: March 21, 2012, 04:43:49 PM »

Yeah, we have a recording of zimmermans own words on that subject,  and a first hand account of trayvon's.

There is evidence in public folks.   Ignore the media and listen to the tapes.

Sorry, scooter, but the evidence in public is from the media.
All of the recordings stop prior to the alleged attack from what I have seen.
There are no recordings from the kid, only the GF's depiction of their conversation.
Like CSD said, her comments mean nothing until she speaks under oath.
I would still question her motives, as she is 1) young and 2) will bend to the family's wishes.
Denial is a dangerous disease.
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De Selby
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« Reply #83 on: March 21, 2012, 06:44:52 PM »

Sorry, scooter, but the evidence in public is from the media.
All of the recordings stop prior to the alleged attack from what I have seen.
There are no recordings from the kid, only the GF's depiction of their conversation.
Like CSD said, her comments mean nothing until she speaks under oath.
I would still question her motives, as she is 1) young and 2) will bend to the family's wishes.
Denial is a dangerous disease.

You realize that the gunshot itself is recorded on the 911 tapes, right? 

Question away at her motives - its still evidence, and not media hype, just like the actual 911 calls.

It's a massive stretch to call tape recordings of witnesses and participants at the moment of the event "media hype."
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« Reply #84 on: March 21, 2012, 08:28:35 PM »

now this is a witness

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1pQ0Xgz9R

  A man who witnessed part of the altercation contacted authorities.

"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.

"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1pmKFR5mk


I suspect this fellow might be why Zimmerman has yet to be arrested, assuming the cops spoke to him that night.
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De Selby
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« Reply #85 on: March 21, 2012, 08:34:17 PM »

What I don't get about this is, being a pro self defence community, why is no one talking about trayvon's right to self defence?

That witness might well have have seen trayvon trying to subdue an armed and mentally disturbed attacker.   Given the tapes, I think it's likely that trayvon had a legal right to defend himself by force from this oddly behaving attacker. 

Or does only the gun holding party get considered a candidate for self defence?
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« Reply #86 on: March 21, 2012, 08:47:54 PM »

What I don't get about this is, being a pro self defence community, why is no one talking about trayvon's right to self defence?

That witness might well have have seen trayvon trying to subdue an armed and mentally disturbed attacker.   Given the tapes, I think it's likely that trayvon had a legal right to defend himself by force from this oddly behaving attacker. 

Or does only the gun holding party get considered a candidate for self defence?

Well, shootee was trespassing for sure when he was shot.  Before, when he was walking on the sidewalk, he might have been trespassing on HOA property.  Not sure, dependson the HOA agreement & FL law.  But, when he took off between the town homes, he definitely was trespassing. 

Trespass doesn't win much sympathy from me.  We have discussed how Zimmerman did some wrong/unwise things, but Martin most definitely screwed the pooch when he jogged off between the town homes away from the street and committed the crime of trespass.

When one commits a crime like trespassing on someone else's property, their using force to resist being apprehended or ejected is usually not looked on as self defense.

[Feel free to toss in the usual disclaimers about not having all the facts, blah blah blah.]

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roo_ster

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“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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« Reply #87 on: March 21, 2012, 08:57:35 PM »

Roo, you've just proven jamis's point - bending over way, way down backwards there to justify this.   To the point that you've made a completely illogical claim - if trayvon was trespassing, so was Zimmerman when he followed him onto the neighbour's yard.   So why again does that mean no sympathy for the boy?

Oh that's right, because he wears a hood in photos!

This thread is some of the strongest ammo for anti-gunners Ive ever seen.
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roo_ster
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« Reply #88 on: March 21, 2012, 09:20:58 PM »

Roo, you've just proven jamis's point - bending over way, way down backwards there to justify this.   To the point that you've made a completely illogical claim - if trayvon was trespassing, so was Zimmerman when he followed him onto the neighbour's yard.   So why again does that mean no sympathy for the boy?

Oh that's right, because he wears a hood in photos!

This thread is some of the strongest ammo for anti-gunners Ive ever seen.

Uh, not so fast.  Senor Assumption.

We have a neighborhood watch here, too, and we have given them permission to tread all the common areas.  Areas where, were they non-resident, non-neighborhood watch, they would be trespassing. 

(Do recall that this happened in the confines of an HOA with an official neighborhood watch program. )

At church, we have:
1. An agreement with a security company to have our grounds patrolled by an armed guard.  He can roam all our grounds and not be trespassing in the performance of his duties. 

2. Also, employees of the church, elders, and members of the board of trustees have permission to walk the grounds 24/7 and roust trespassers.  Matter of fact, we are encouraged to do so.  It was one of the ways I determined the throughput of trespassers on the property during the evenings.  When I told a group of tattooed and pierced youths to leave the property, I was good-to-go and not trespassing.  When the folks renting our athletic fields told the group of young black thugs to leave, they were good-to-go, too.

3. An agreement with the city police that they do not need probable cause to enter our grounds to roust any folk they deem suspicious.  (Not a step taken lightly, believe you me. )

=====================

So, we know for certain Martin was trespassing, but do not know if Zimmerman was trespassing.  Maybe, maybe not.  Recall my disclaimer? Perhaps you ought to read it and not make foolish assumptions.
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roo_ster

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“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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gunsmith
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« Reply #89 on: March 21, 2012, 10:03:15 PM »

Did I say eye witness? No I said witness if there's another word for an "I heard" witness, please let me know.

Don't taze me bro!  angel
I'm just asking questions!
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gunsmith
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« Reply #90 on: March 21, 2012, 10:12:11 PM »

 It seems like the radlibs are eager to turn this into some kind of cause with even less info then we have here.
Protest in the SF Bay Area & NYC.


I hope nothing happens to stand your ground - its an awesome law.
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« Reply #91 on: March 22, 2012, 02:27:16 AM »

What I don't get about this is, being a pro self defence community, why is no one talking about trayvon's right to self defence?

Because no one is trying to lynch Trayvon.  

Most of us here are just saying we need more facts. One of two basic scenario's happened:

1. Zimmerman grabbed, hit, shoved, or otherwise started the scuffle, in which case he was the aggressor, and it's a bad shoot.

or

2. Trayvon responded to a verbal encounter ("what are you doing here") with force and started the fight that ended up with him shot.

That distinction is what we don't know.  Up until that point everything was either legal, or not justification for use of force. Zimmerman's following of, and stopping to verbally challenge Trayvon isn't justification for Trayvon to use force in self defense.*  Until we know who initiated the physical part of the confrontation we don't know who was defending themselves.

*ETA for clarity:  Trayvon's tresspassing is ALSO not justification for use of force under FL law.  That's why the unkown distinction is so important in this case.  Whoever escalated to physical force is aggressor, leaving the self defense justification to the other.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 03:33:13 AM by dogmush » Logged
Jamie B
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« Reply #92 on: March 22, 2012, 03:12:03 AM »

You realize that the gunshot itself is recorded on the 911 tapes, right? 

Question away at her motives - its still evidence, and not media hype, just like the actual 911 calls.

It's a massive stretch to call tape recordings of witnesses and participants at the moment of the event "media hype."
Do you read before typing? I think not.
There are no witness recordings, especially the GF.
Her comments are what she thinks they said while speaking, and is not recorded.

I enjoy a good engagement with most folks, but you pick and choose what you believe to be true, and it destroys your creditability.
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« Reply #93 on: March 22, 2012, 03:54:04 AM »

Here are some interesting comments from the Republican author of the FL Stand Your Ground Law:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57401619-504083/author-of-stand-your-ground-law-george-zimmerman-should-probably-be-arrested-for-killing-trayvon-martin/

Quote
CBS/AP) SANFORD, Fla. - The author of Florida's controversial "stand your ground" self-defense law say George Zimmerman should probably be arrested for shooting Trayvon Martin, reports the Miami Herald.
"He has no protection under my law," former Sen. Durell Peaden told the newspaper.
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« Reply #94 on: March 22, 2012, 04:14:45 AM »

Trespass doesn't win much sympathy from me.  We have discussed how Zimmerman did some wrong/unwise things, but Martin most definitely screwed the pooch when he jogged off between the town homes away from the street and committed the crime of trespass.

When one commits a crime like trespassing on someone else's property, their using force to resist being apprehended or ejected is usually not looked on as self defense.

However, under the doctrine of competing harms, (and common sense) if the shootee reasonably thought that he was in danger from an unstable and belligerent individual, it is completely reasonable for someone to try to get away by whatever route necessary. Did Zimmerman even identify himself as neighborhood watch?  

It seems like the radlibs are eager to turn this into some kind of cause with even less info then we have here.
Protest in the SF Bay Area & NYC.




I hope nothing happens to stand your ground - its an awesome law.

It is unfortunate that this is so politiized. The way the left is trying to politicize it automatically encourages a knee-jerk reaction for people to jump to Zimmerman's defense, thereby turning it into another culture war battle.  

I honestly don't think that this case will harm "stand your ground laws."  Zimmerman's actions went far beyond "standing your ground."  Getting out of the safety of your car to chase someone down doesn't really fit in to the kind of behavior that is intended to be protected by "stand your ground" laws.  

With the information so far, Zimmerman also doesn't appear to have much of a leg to stand on under "fleeing felon" rules, as he couldn't articulate to the 911 operator what the kid was up to.  "Not looking right" isn't grounds to chase someone down.  

I think it is probably the case Zimmerman had not clearly thought our how he was going to deal with approaching suspicious characters in his role as a neighborhood watch member.  What did he think would happen if he was going to run after someone under these circumstances?  What was he going to accomplish after he had already gotten the kid to start leaving the area? His poor choices ultimately ended with someone getting shot.  Regardless of the legal consequences , he is going to have live with that.  


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« Reply #95 on: March 22, 2012, 05:40:09 AM »

Roo, you've just proven jamis's point - bending over way, way down backwards there to justify this.   To the point that you've made a completely illogical claim - if trayvon was trespassing, so was Zimmerman when he followed him onto the neighbour's yard.   So why again does that mean no sympathy for the boy?

Oh that's right, because he wears a hood in photos!

This thread is some of the strongest ammo for anti-gunners Ive ever seen.

Zimmerman is at a minimum, a complete idiot. Probably a fool as well.

As for Trayvon, honestly have no idea. Yes, if Zimmerman hit him first, he absolutely deserves every right to defend himself and hopefully Zimmerman goes to jail for a long time. It won't bring him back, but it'd be some level of justice. If he hit Zimmerman first, even in socially justified manner (ie saying something not polite or whatnot), he initiated the escalation of force and that matters legally. Hitting someone doesn't necessarily justify use of lethal force. If I had no arms and started kicking you in the knees, you'd probably go to jail even under Castle Doctrine if you killed me with a firearm.

Personally, if I was one of the cops, even if it wasn't murder/manslaughter, I'd try hit the guy for at least something minor to take the guy's concealed permit. Zimmerman may or may not be guilty of murder, that is up to the legal system to decide. But he sure as hell used bad judgment that led to a fatal shooting that EASILY COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED. I am fairly sure Florida law likely has a provision to revoke a permit if someone is a bloody idiot. (Yes, yes, I know it'd be written more formally.)

No, this thread does NOT provide some of the strongest ammo to anti-gunners. "Those evil gun-lunatics at APS are hesitant to lynch an idiot."  That is the only ammo provided. No one is questioning the fact that Zimmerman probably used bad judgment. No one is questioning that Zimmerman should have avoided escalating the situation. No one is questioning that it may be a murky shooting. Folks ARE questioning the desire to lynch the guy without access to all of the facts. Yes, SOME evidence is public knowledge. But pretty friggin far from all of them.
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« Reply #96 on: March 22, 2012, 06:00:11 AM »

Anyone seen whether Zimmerman received medical treatment or any mention of how seriously he was hurt? Broken nose? Stitches? Mild Head Trauma etc.?

I can't help but speculating at this point that a couple of wannabe tough guys ran into each other and one of them had a gun. If that is the case then at the minimum Zimmerman was the initiator of the interaction. The most important question, as mentioned above, who initiated physical contact?


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« Reply #97 on: March 22, 2012, 06:04:21 AM »

Anyone seen whether Zimmerman received medical treatment or any mention of how seriously he was hurt? Broken nose? Stitches? Mild Head Trauma etc.?

I can't help but speculating at this point that a couple of wannabe tough guys ran into each other and one of them had a gun. If that is the case then at the minimum Zimmerman was the initiator of the interaction. The most important question, as mentioned above, who initiated physical contact?


The articles I have read reported a broken nose and 13 stitches in the back of his head. (Again, take with a grain of salt as there has been so much speculation reported as fact.)
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« Reply #98 on: March 22, 2012, 06:09:02 AM »

Also, I will again note that we don't know who initiated the interaction.

Following someone is not illegal (a pattern of doing so becomes stalking, though.) It is cause to raise your awareness, but unless the follower initiates some kind of contact, the proper response to someone following you is not physical confrontation.

Again, we don't know who initiated the physical confrontation. If it were Zimmerman, he is at least guilty of manslaughter. If it were Martin, Zimmerman was justified in shooting if he feared for his life. He was stupid to have placed himself in such a position, but even stupid people have a right to defend themselves. (So long as they are merely stupid and not life-threateningly criminal.)
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I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.
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« Reply #99 on: March 22, 2012, 06:11:11 AM »

No, this thread does NOT provide some of the strongest ammo to anti-gunners. "Those evil gun-lunatics at APS are hesitant to lynch an idiot."  That is the only ammo provided. No one is questioning the fact that Zimmerman probably used bad judgment. No one is questioning that Zimmerman should have avoided escalating the situation. No one is questioning that it may be a murky shooting. Folks ARE questioning the desire to lynch the guy without access to all of the facts. Yes, SOME evidence is public knowledge. But pretty friggin far from all of them.

Ayup.
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----Jacques Barzun

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton
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