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Author Topic: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?  (Read 42506 times)
Mike Irwin
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« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2006, 04:42:32 PM »

"oh my, now thats one scary world view, friend."

Hardly a world view.

Absolute BS is more like it.
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Stand_watie
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« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2006, 08:48:27 PM »

Quote from: Ezekiel
Quote from: Iain
A determined and organised attempt to eliminate one race of people does deserve a special notoriety.
Yet so many "self-righteous" Americans fail to care/realize/cope with or understand the idea that more people were killed, over time, HERE then the Holocaust (easily): to create what many support as the greatest government ever.

The Nazi Holocaust is finished.

The "American" model is ongoing, if more subtle.

Sure, "I'm an American and think our model is best."

Such is far, far from the Utopia advertised.

"The World hates us for a reason."

It is self-righteousness, more than policy, in many cases.

"We're hypocrites."
What are you referring to in particular?

p.s. The use if quotation marks in your posts around what I believe are your own words make for difficult/confusing reading.
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Ezekiel
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« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2006, 02:17:18 AM »

Merely that -- and simply that -- the generations long genocide of this continent's indigenous people, over time, amounted to more death and suffering (if you can measure such) than the Holocaust but has been consistently downplayed for reasons of National sanctimony.

"It happened."

The Holocaust happened, too, but not "here."

Thus, we can support its (Holocaust) villainy on a National level.
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Zeke
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« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2006, 04:36:37 AM »

Quote from: Ezekiel
Merely that -- and simply that -- the generations long genocide of this continent's indigenous people, over time, amounted to more death and suffering (if you can measure such) than the Holocaust but has been consistently downplayed for reasons of National sanctimony.

"It happened."

The Holocaust happened, too, but not "here."

Thus, we can support its (Holocaust) villainy on a National level.
Sorry.  Murder and displacement of indigenous people is nothing new.  Look at the Ainu in Japan.  The fact that Indians are still here to talk about it suggests it was better than most similar incidents.  I agree it was unfortunate and a lot of suffering occurred.  I would also point out that the tribes were hardly blameless, inflicting suffering and death on other tribes, occasionally partnering with the Whites.
Again, the Holocaust was unique in that it was perpetrated primarily at citizens of their own country for no economic or political gain.
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Art Eatman
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« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2006, 07:50:00 AM »

Genocide on the North American continent?  Well, that's an interesting way to look at it, but it surely plays fast and loose with the word.

Genocide is the elimination of a genotype, of a race.  Hitler was successful, pretty much, insofar as Europe was concerned, but he did not succeed as to Jews as a race.

Intent enters in:  Whenever the AmerInd quit fighting, for all that there was abuse thereafter, there was no further deliberate and wilful killing by the government.

The history of homo sap is of one ethnic group or a religious group leaning on another, occupying the land, raping the women, etc, etc.  Pick one:  The Persians in Biblical times, or Alexander; Genghis Khan and his Mongol hordes, and of course the various Europeaans in the "New World".

In what's now the U.S., as the whites moved west, Indian tribes closest to them adapted to the new weaponry and pushed existing neighbors westward in turn.  At one time, the Comanches were to the northeast part of Texas; Apaches were in north-central and western Texas.  The westward push of the Comanches forced the Apaches into New Mexico and Arizona.

Spaniards intermarried with the Indians of Mexico; this new group achieved governmental power and instituted the practice of buying Indian scalps and other highly-civilized methods of pacification of indigenes.

And on and on.

None of it is worth a teaspoon of warm spit except as a historical curiosity and an object lesson for those of us who don't want to see "man's inhumanity towards man" continued.

In the 21st Century, it's fairly obvious that we're now into the worst of all inhumanities, a religion-based warfare.

Art
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« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2006, 12:20:48 PM »

gunsmith posted:
Quote
Well thats because Stalin did it, it's ok to kill millions if you have a liberal agenda.
Stalin was a communist, not a liberal.
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The Rabbi
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« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2006, 01:35:06 PM »

Quote from: BayouBlogger
gunsmith posted:
Quote
Well thats because Stalin did it, it's ok to kill millions if you have a liberal agenda.
Stalin was a communist, not a liberal.
There's a difference??
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« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2006, 04:05:50 PM »

There's a difference, BayouBlogger, but the point is that Communist rhetoric and their stated goals (though perhaps not their actual goals) are the same as those of modern western "liberals."  I.e., economic "equality," government control of justabouteverything, etc.
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--Martin Luther, On Christian Liberty
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« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2006, 05:26:50 AM »

The Rabbi pondered:
Quote
There's a difference??
See  Liberalism and Communism.

Referring to Stalin as a liberal makes about as much sense as referring to Hitler as a conservative (or Bush as a Nazi).   Go ahead if it makes you feel better, but it is grossly inaccurate.  People who know better will discount you.
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« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2006, 05:55:23 AM »

Mannlicher wrote:
Quote
Stalin killed probably 20 million Russians though, and there is no memorial for them.
Byelorussia Plans to Build Memorial to Stalin's Victims   And all I did was run a google search on memorial+stalin+victims.  

c_yeager wrote:
Quote
The thing that I find most interesting about this debate is that some people think it actually matters.  How much more evil is it to murder 6 million people in the interest of ethnic "cleansing" than it is to kill 4 million?
Historical accuracy matters.  

Mike Irwin wrote:
Quote
The 6 million figure is widely regarded by most serious historians to be the most accurate number there is.
The collapse of the Soviet Union allowed scholars greater access to heretofore closed archives.  Recent scholarship suggests that the number of Jews murdered by the Third Reich is closer to seven million.  As I write this, I cannot put my hands on the source, but I think I saw it at Nizkor.
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richyoung
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« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2006, 08:36:04 AM »

Quote from: The Rabbi
Conversations like this always make me uncomfortable.
I would point out that while the Nazis certainly killed many "undesirables" their primary target was Jews.  The whole concentration camp and extermination program was directed first and foremost at Jews.  They used it for others, too, but that was not the primary focus.  And these Jews were, at the outset, German citizens who had done nothing illegal, had made no choices at all.
I missed it - what did the Cambodians do that was "illegal"  Go to school - BEFORE the Khamer Rouge came to power?  Wear glasses?  Same question about the Ukranians, Armenians, Kurds, ethnic Chinese citizens of Vietnam, the victims of the "Cultural Revolution", etc.


Quote
In fact, unlike other genocides, this one did nothing to improve Germany or the policital standing of its leaders.
Again, you are assuming a uniqueness that isn't so.  How did Pol Pot's standing end up?  The "Gange of Four" - or for that matter, Stalin?

Quote
Stalin killed peasants in the Ukraine and Pol Pot killed anyone with an education out of a calculated political or economic advantage.  Hitler killed Jews because he hated them.
I was taught that Jews were used as scapegoats for Germany's economic problems in the Great Depression, and partially blamed for "undermining" Germany in WWI, and blamed for spreading "communism" - and those things sound like attempts at political advantage.  It was also my understanding that Jewish money, land, businesses, and belongs were confiscated without compensation - and that sounds like "economic advantage" to me.

 
Quote
This is so even though they were among the most productive in the society, and had been among the most loyal citizens.  Many Jews died fighting for Germany in WW1 (my wife had more than one great uncle killed that way).  This was the uniqueness of the Holocaust: a modern industrial society at the pinnacle of artistic and scientific achievement turning against its own citizens.
What country were the Ukranians, Chinese, Cambodians, Kurds, Armenians, etc citizens of, if not the one exterminating them?

Quote
When we compare Stalin, Pol Pot, etc etc to the Holocaust we lose the meaning of that event and dishonor those who so died.
I must respectfully disagree.  When the term "holocaust" is thrown around to describe things like the American incarceration rate of minorities or some such other political posturing, then certainly  we demean the word to the point that its meaning is diminished, if not lost.  However, to acknowledge that there have indeed been many holocausts, with many different motivations and victims, in no way diminishes the tragedy of the Jewish Holocaust, or dishonors the victims thereof.  In the end, dead is dead - what difference the reason?  Unless one subscribes to a philosphy that some classes of innocent lives are "worth more" than others, or that one reason for mass murder in the millions can somehow be "more evil" than another, then the blood shed from ALL the innocents implores we the living to remember their loss, and to take action to prevent any similar reoccurence.
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« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2006, 08:56:44 AM »

Quote from: richyoung
Quote from: The Rabbi
Conversations like this always make me uncomfortable.
I would point out that while the Nazis certainly killed many "undesirables" their primary target was Jews.  The whole concentration camp and extermination program was directed first and foremost at Jews.  They used it for others, too, but that was not the primary focus.  And these Jews were, at the outset, German citizens who had done nothing illegal, had made no choices at all.
I missed it -
RichYoung: you always make one statement I can agree with.  This is it for this thread.
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Ezekiel
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« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2006, 10:13:21 AM »

Quote
The fact that Indians are still here to talk about it suggests it was better than most similar incidents.
Give Jews 500 more years to multiply, then check the numbers.  We exist due to rather prolific reproduction on Federal Reserve land.

Quote
Genocide is the elimination of a genotype, of a race.
Exactly what was attempted regarding indigenous "Americans."

Quote
Whenever the AmerInd quit fighting, for all that there was abuse thereafter, there was no further deliberate and wilful killing by the government.
"Right."  Such continued WELL into the 1970s, at least.

Quote
Again, the Holocaust was unique
I'm forced to vehemently disagree, "Jews just have the best press agents" regarding their issues: which are NOT ongoing.

Quote
The history of homo sap is of one ethnic group or a religious group leaning on another, occupying the land, raping the women, etc, etc.  Pick one:  The Persians in Biblical times, or Alexander; Genghis Khan and his Mongol hordes, and of course the various Europeaans in the "New World".
Which, of course, disproves the "Holocaust (Jewish) is unique" theory.  History repeats...

Quote
When we compare Stalin, Pol Pot, etc etc to the Holocaust we lose the meaning of that event and dishonor those who so died.
Man, that is COMPLETELY bogus.  That's "press agent" speak.

Quote
None of it is worth a teaspoon of warm spit except as a historical curiosity and an object lesson for those of us who don't want to see "man's inhumanity towards man" continued.
"Likely true."

Quote
In the 21st Century, it's fairly obvious that we're now into the worst of all inhumanities, a religion-based warfare.
Heck, that's happened in the past, MANY times.  We just have more effecient methods to kill now...  Sad
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Zeke
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« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2006, 12:08:50 PM »

Rabbi, are you saying that the uniqueness of the Holocaust lay in the fact that its victims were neither a super-wealthy aristocracy nor an underclass?  This would be different than killing Gypsies (transients living on the edges of society) or a hypothetical genocide against whites in South Africa.
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--Martin Luther, On Christian Liberty
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« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2006, 12:13:44 PM »

The wrongs done to aboriginals by white civilization in the U.S. were not unlike migrations elsewhere in world history.  While many terrible things were done, genocide was not really attempted.  You should find another word for it, Zeke.
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« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2006, 01:32:21 PM »

Quote from: fistful
Rabbi, are you saying that the uniqueness of the Holocaust lay in the fact that its victims were neither a super-wealthy aristocracy nor an underclass?  This would be different than killing Gypsies (transients living on the edges of society) or a hypothetical genocide against whites in South Africa.
I am saying its uniqueness rests on a number of things:
1) It was carried out by the most advanced culture of its time.  Cambodians regularly ate their prisoners of war.  Germans prided themselves (rightly) on achievements in virtually every area: arts, literature, science, medicine, etc.
2) It was carried out regardless of belief or political affiliation.
3) It was carried out against its own citizens, regardless of any actual threat they posed to the regime.
4) It was carried out even when doing so was deleterious to other programs.  The Nazis used cars that were needed for troop transport to carry Jews to the camps.

It is all these things together that make it unique.
The wars of conquest against the Indians by the U.S. were typical rather than an exception.  How many Hivvites have you spoken with recently?  Stalin's treatment of the Ukrainians was calculated to pacify a region prone to independent strains, as they are today.  The genocide of the Serbs against the Croats and Bosnians was done purely for economic gain.
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« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2006, 12:46:51 AM »

Quote from: The Rabbi
Quote from: fistful
Rabbi, are you saying that the uniqueness of the Holocaust lay in the fact that its victims were neither a super-wealthy aristocracy nor an underclass?  This would be different than killing Gypsies (transients living on the edges of society) or a hypothetical genocide against whites in South Africa.
I am saying its uniqueness rests on a number of things:
1) It was carried out by the most advanced culture of its time.  Cambodians regularly ate their prisoners of war.  Germans prided themselves (rightly) on achievements in virtually every area: arts, literature, science, medicine, etc.
"One of the most advanced" - certainly.  The "most" advanced?  Hardly.  Even in the martial arts, it was a culture incapable of fielding a heavy bomber the likes even of the B-17, (much less the B-29), incapable of completing and deploying an aircraft carrier - something Japan, Great Brittain, and the U.S. proved able to do.  Even in chemistry, arguably their strong suite, they proved incapable of creating synthetic rubber (neoprene) or silk (nylon) in usable numbers.  Thene there's the whole nuclear bomb thing.  Other than rocketry (based on American Goddard's patents) and a lead in jet propulsion that went nowhere, where's this "advanced" culture?  Their infantrymen toted the same bolt-action rifle they fought WWI with, essentially - whilst the American troops had a semi-auto battle rifle

Quote
2) It was carried out regardless of belief or political affiliation.
true - but hardly unique.  It was based on race - ever heard of "ethnic cleansing"?  Race or tribal affiliation os a CLASSIC justification for wholesale slaughter.  Nor where the Jews the only race so treated by the Third Reich.
Quote
3) It was carried out against its own citizens, regardless of any actual threat they posed to the regime.
...and how much threat were those 2 million Cambodians to Pol Pot?
Quote
4) It was carried out even when doing so was deleterious to other programs.  The Nazis used cars that were needed for troop transport to carry Jews to the camps.
...and how did Stalin's purges of his officer corps affect the performance of the Red Army - especially when the German hordes turned on them?
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« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2006, 02:32:40 AM »

End of discussion, RichYoung.  Thanks for playing.  Come back when you have something reasonable to add.
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« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2006, 03:29:53 AM »

Quote from: The Rabbi
End of discussion, RichYoung.  Thanks for playing.  Come back when you have something reasonable to add.
Have you been promoted to moderator?  If not, I hardly think that its your call....
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« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2006, 03:50:29 AM »

Quote from: The Rabbi
End of discussion, RichYoung.  Thanks for playing.  Come back when you have something reasonable to add.
That's ridiculous, Rabbi.  If you don't want to refute his perfectly reasonable points, then just don't respond.  I'm not saying you're wrong about the Holocaust, but it doesn't have to be unique to be a horrible thing with a lot of meaning for you personally.
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« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2006, 04:17:55 AM »

Quote
but it doesn't have to be unique to be a horrible thing with a lot of meaning for you personally.
Haven't I been trying to make that point?

The Holocaust was "bad," but it was for from unique and gets WAY too much publicity on a global scale for death, decimation of culture, and/or impact.

Folks just knee-jerk about it WAY too much.
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« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2006, 08:05:51 AM »

Why do I get the feeling this thread would have been a lot friendlier if someone had just answered, "Not enough."  This is a dumb conversation.

The Holocaust was awful.

A lot of other atrocities have been awful to varying degrees of awfulness.  

If Rabbi thinks the Holocaust was different from other terrible things, let him; it doesn't in the least take away from any other atrocity.  If you think it was not so unique, then at least refrain from talking about how "the Jews had better press agents."  That's just calculated to outrage and offend.  There's no point in that.
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"The ears of our generation have been made so delicate by the senseless multitude of flatterers that, as soon as we perceive that anything of ours is not approved of, we cry out that we are being bitterly assailed; and when we can repel the truth by no other pretense, we escape by attributing bitterness, impatience, intemperance, to our adversaries."
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« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2006, 08:51:42 AM »

Quote from: fistful
Why do I get the feeling this thread would have been a lot friendlier if someone had just answered, "Not enough."  This is a dumb conversation.

The Holocaust was awful.

A lot of other atrocities have been awful to varying degrees of awfulness.  

If Rabbi thinks the Holocaust was different from other terrible things, let him; it doesn't in the least take away from any other atrocity.  If you think it was not so unique, then at least refrain from talking about how "the Jews had better press agents."  That's just calculated to outrage and offend.  There's no point in that.
Fistful,
I think at least some people would have been perfectly OK with that answer.  But instead of saying that, they would rather downplay the whole incident and make it blend in with every slaughter ever committed by one group against another, regardless of circumstances. Doing so means the incident can be written off as just one more episode in history without much significance.  To do that is to miss the point entirely, to dishonor the memory of those who perished in it, and to reveal oneself as a shallow thoughtless person.
Maybe the thread needs to be closed.
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« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2006, 09:16:07 AM »

Rabbi, do you think the people who disagree with you about this are essentially saying, "We've all been slaughtered a time or two.  You Jews should get over yourselves; you're nothing special."?
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"The ears of our generation have been made so delicate by the senseless multitude of flatterers that, as soon as we perceive that anything of ours is not approved of, we cry out that we are being bitterly assailed; and when we can repel the truth by no other pretense, we escape by attributing bitterness, impatience, intemperance, to our adversaries."
--Martin Luther, On Christian Liberty
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« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2006, 11:42:44 AM »

I think people can say that for many different reasons.  The one you gave is one of those reasons.
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