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Author Topic: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?  (Read 44337 times)
Ezekiel
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« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2006, 02:00:07 AM »

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Maybe the thread needs to be closed.
Why?
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« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2006, 02:12:39 AM »

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I think at least some people would have been perfectly OK with that answer.  But instead of saying that, they would rather downplay the whole incident and make it blend in with every slaughter ever committed by one group against another, regardless of circumstances.
That is quite the erroneous "either/or" statement, don't you think?  Not only do the two not necessarily follow, it reports a sort of paranoia...

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Doing so means the incident can be written off as just one more episode in history without much significance.
"Wrong again."  Sure, it was significant, but it is no more -- and likely less -- significant then other atrocities, historically, during the time of man.  I do not percieve a destruction of overall culture, and Israel is a significantly larger Reservation then that offered to indigenous tribes in the United States.  (There are other examples, aptly brought up by others.)

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To do that is to miss the point entirely, to dishonor the memory of those who perished in it, and to reveal oneself as a shallow thoughtless person.
"Additional wrongness."  To believe that the "Jewish issue" is any more special, significant or unjust -- beyond the scope of all other evil -- is to brand oneself as self-serving and devoid of context.
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« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2006, 02:16:32 AM »

Quote from: Ezekiel
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Maybe the thread needs to be closed.
Why?
Because the thread has deteriorated into some people pushing an obvious agenda, obvious to those of us who have been around it long enough.  If I continue posting I will no doubt get banned for pointing out what to me is an obvious truth.
Stop me before I post again!
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« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2006, 03:00:47 AM »

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If I continue posting I will no doubt get banned for pointing out what to me is an obvious truth.
I doubt that.  While we may disagree on certian levels of historical import, you are always rational and intelligent.

I sincerely invite you to PM me if you prefer to make your point(s) in private.  "I am very open."

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Because the thread has deteriorated into some people pushing an obvious agenda, obvious to those of us who have been around it long enough.
That is a very interesting statement.  I would like to hear/know more.
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« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2006, 12:27:16 AM »

Quote from: Ezekiel
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Because the thread has deteriorated into some people pushing an obvious agenda, obvious to those of us who have been around it long enough.
That is a very interesting statement.  I would like to hear/know more.
Hang on folks - the "anti-Semite" card is about to be played....as it ALWAYS is on anyone who points out that, admirable as Israel is, (especially right now, as they are doing the heavy lifting of all civilized society AND perhaps giving Lebanon one more chance at independence), it has in fact engaged in some questionable practices (USS Liberty, Levan affair, "friendly" and industrial espionage).  It is also always played on anyone who points out that while horrible, (...and I've walked throught the gates that read "Arbeit Macht Frie", and stood in front of the ovens), the Jewish Holocaust is not particularly unique, nor even exclusively Jewish - unless, of course, only Jewish deaths matter, and who cares about the goyim?  To some eyes, one is either shabbos goy or neo-nazi, with nothing in between.
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Art Eatman
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« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2006, 06:09:40 AM »

RichYoung, I imagine what makes the Jewish portion of the Holocaust "more unique" is that it's one of the very few mass murders in all history that was done to productive citizens of a country who were in no way enemies of the country or of the people in power.  They were purely scapegoats, and picked out only because of ethnicity/religion.

Yeah, Stalin starved a bunch of people, and Mao's folks killed a bunch and Pol Pot's gang did in a high percentage of his people.  But:  The motivations were different.  Stalin wasn't blaming the Kulaks for the economic illls of Russia, seeking a scapegoat.  Mao's deal was to kill any potential anti-communist resistance.  Pol Pot's guys were after "intellectuals", as in "anybody who can read and write".

But pardon the admitted over-simplification; I ain't gonna write a book.

Art
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« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2006, 08:26:56 AM »

Quote from: Art Eatman
RichYoung, I imagine what makes the Jewish portion of the Holocaust "more unique" is that it's one of the very few mass murders in all history that was done to .  They were purely scapegoats, and picked out only because of ethnicity/religion.
I would submit that EXACT same thing applies to the ethnic Chinese in Vietnam, (AKA "boat people"), the Armenian "Great Calamity", (based on race and religion, (Christian), 21 countries officially describe it as genocide), etc.

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.... Pol Pot's gang did in a high percentage of his people.  But:  The motivations were different.  ... Pol Pot's guys were after "intellectuals", as in "anybody who can read and write".
...who happened to be "productive citizens of a country who were in no way enemies of the country or of the people in power" (your words).  Considering the Communists are dogmatically atheist, relgion probably played a role there as well
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« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2006, 10:12:01 AM »

Yes, those damn Jews ought to stop whining and get on with it.
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« Reply #58 on: August 11, 2006, 12:54:24 PM »

For those insisting the Holocaust was overblown, what are the numbers of Jews killed/imprisoned, versus Gypsies, Poles, Russians, homos, etc.?
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« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2006, 03:39:59 PM »

Quote from: fistful
For those insisting the Holocaust was overblown, what are the numbers of Jews killed/imprisoned, versus Gypsies, Poles, Russians, homos, etc.?
Generating numbers is an inexact task - how do you "score" a half Jewish, half Gypsy communist homosexual, to pick an extreme example.  How do we determine how many "partisan" body counts were really Jews or others massacred by the military or SS?  Roughly - VERY roughly - 6 million Jews and 5 million "others" died in the Holocaust, give or take a million in the two categories.  With respect to the Russians, the picture of counting bodies is even more clouded - what with Katyn massacres, Stalin purges, "Prisoner battalions", etc an "accurate" number verses battlefield casualties verses killed by their own state may be impossible to determine.
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« Reply #60 on: August 11, 2006, 10:51:33 PM »

The Russian situation I think we can set aside, as we are interested in which of its civilian population the Nazi machine was killing/jailing and why.  By your numbers, there were at least as many Jews as other "undesirables" or "enemies of the Reich and the German people," put together.
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« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2006, 01:15:08 PM »

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Yes, those damn Jews ought to stop whining and get on with it.
That's what I also hear sometimes, Rabbi.   "Just another series of atrocities, nothing to dwell on, move along, folks, besides it wasn't any worse than the crime of _______________ (fill in the blank)."  

There's something quite revolting about the attempts by Ernest Nolte and like-minded people to minimize the significance of the Holocaust. Deborah Lipstadt has argued that in her view the nature of Nolte's work is a more insidious and dangerous form of Holocaust denial then the work of David Irving.  I'm inclined to agree with her.
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« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2006, 03:33:04 PM »

Quote from: fistful
The Russian situation I think we can set aside, as we are interested in which of its civilian population the Nazi machine was killing/jailing and why.  By your numbers, there were at least as many Jews as other "undesirables" or "enemies of the Reich and the German people," put together.
Almost certainly, the marjority of victims were Jewish.  Does that somehow simish the loss and suffering of the millions of other victims, or the victims of other historic atrocities?  In recent history, Christians are being killed or sold into slavery for the crime of...being Christians.  The point I'm trying to get across is that to buy into the attiutde that ONLY the German crimes in WWII against ONLY the JEWS is a "Big H" Holocaust, possesing some great degree of "uniqueness", (and that all other such incidents, including the other victims of the SAME Nazi death machine, were mere "little h" holocausts) is to engage in the idea that some people are more human, and their deaths more signifigant, than others - and thats EXACTLY the kind of thinking that CAUSED the whole thing in the first place.
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« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2006, 04:11:11 PM »

Quote from: richyoung
Quote from: fistful
The Russian situation I think we can set aside, as we are interested in which of its civilian population the Nazi machine was killing/jailing and why.  By your numbers, there were at least as many Jews as other "undesirables" or "enemies of the Reich and the German people," put together.
Almost certainly, the marjority of victims were Jewish.  Does that somehow simish the loss and suffering of the millions of other victims, or the victims of other historic atrocities?  In recent history, Christians are being killed or sold into slavery for the crime of...being Christians.  The point I'm trying to get across is that to buy into the attiutde that ONLY the German crimes in WWII against ONLY the JEWS is a "Big H" Holocaust, possesing some great degree of "uniqueness", (and that all other such incidents, including the other victims of the SAME Nazi death machine, were mere "little h" holocausts) is to engage in the idea that some people are more human, and their deaths more signifigant, than others - and thats EXACTLY the kind of thinking that CAUSED the whole thing in the first place.
What a remarkably disingenuous argument.  It suggests that any death anywhere for any reason is equal to any other and therefore, since there are so many, ultimately insignificant.
What a great way to deny the Holocaust: allow the factual part but deny any larger significance.
I marvel.
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« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2006, 01:33:17 AM »

fistful, the Holocaust "ate" about as many non-Jews as Jews, from what I've read.  "Untermenschen" of all sorts were murdered.  

Opinion:  The Jews were the largest single group.  All the others, sub-group by sub-group, were smaller.  One thing to remember is that even good Aryan Germans of very-low IQ went away as well--as untermenschen.

richyoung, the key to my comment was that the Holocaust was the FIRST PUBLICLY KNOWN such relatively-mopdern genocidal effort of a particular group.  Certainly the results were the first to be captured on film, with a paper trail of the structure of the system.

For perspective and context:  This is before TV, okay?  This is before world travel by Joe Sixpack or his kids.  Think of the American attitude of favoring the underdog.  Consider the reaction when you go to a movie with the wife and kids and there in the MovieTone Newsreel is footage of our GIs helping walking skeletons to ambulances.  Footage of the mass graves, some not yet covered at the time of our Army's arrival.  Then the word starts getting around that we turned down efforts of many German Jews to get visas to come into the US before the War.  Add in the Jewish population in the U.S. and their reaction to this new knowledge of what specifically happened to their relatives and friends.  And then what came out at the Nuremburg trials.

Is it any wonder that "The Holocaust" became a big deal, and focussed on the Jews?  How or why could it be otherwise?

Art
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« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2006, 11:49:57 PM »

Quote from: The Rabbi
What a remarkably disingenuous argument.  It suggests that any death anywhere for any reason is equal to any other....
If you are going to put words in my mouth, you need to be better at it.  But even in your attempted slanting of my words, a grain of truth remains - any unjust death at the hands of an inhuman, murderous regime IS equal to any other - unless you buy into the same "untermenchen" philosophy that spawned the death camps.  Pray tell, who's exterminations are "worth more" or "worth less" in YOUR sight, Rabbi? Who is Man that you are mindful of him, to you?

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...and therefore, since there are so many, ultimately insignificant.
I know you will NEVER find me claiming ANY part of the Holocaust is "insignifigant", whereas by implication, YOU assert the Gentile victims are "insignifigant".
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What a great way to deny the Holocaust: allow the factual part but deny any larger significance.
I deny that its UNIQUE - its not even the only Jewish tragedy and extermination, nor was it exclusively Jewish.  Further there have been EQUALLY HORRIFIC crimes against humanity before and since.
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« Reply #66 on: August 14, 2006, 12:48:16 AM »

Clever.  So you focus on the deaths of people.  In that sense, one death is the same as any other, whether it is from war, disease, natural disaster, etc.  Since death is death there is nothing more to be said about it, except lament and forget.
In fact, you make the case yourself.
The Holocaust was unique from previous persecutions in any number of ways.  Previous persecutions were carried out by governments and entities that had no idea of the rule of law or citizens' rights.  The Jews of Germany theoretically were protected by the Weimar Constitution, a system of parliamentary laws and courts of justice.  Prior persecutions were conducted by essentially barbarians without the ideas and outlooks of the Enlightenment.  The Holocaust was perpetrated by people who saw themselves, rightly, as the most advanced civilization that had ever existed, advanced technologically, legally, artistically, and morally.  Previous persecutions were the result of religious agitation.  In Germany many "Jews" died who were in fact practicing Catholics or Protestants but had a Jewish ancestor.
In previous persecutions, Jews could save their lives by converting to Islam (c'v) or, worse, Christianity.  In Germany there was no such out.  In previous persecutions, the Jewish community could sometimes stave off violence by offering big bribes.  In Germany there was, with one small exception, no such out.  In previous persecutions Jews could leave the country and escape persecution.  After a certain point Germany would not let them escape.  Previous persecutions were local events, the Holocaust was part of a grand plan to wipe out the entire Jewish people.

So when you lump the Holocaust in with Cambodia or Darfur or Bosnia or any number of other tragic slaughters you gain no insight into the event.  It simply blurs together with so many others that no lesson or insight is possible.
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« Reply #67 on: August 14, 2006, 01:53:40 AM »

Joseph Stalin was to have said "The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic".

Think about it.
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« Reply #68 on: August 14, 2006, 02:26:36 AM »

Quote from: Art Eatman
richyoung, the key to my comment was that the Holocaust was the FIRST PUBLICLY KNOWN such relatively-mopdern genocidal effort of a particular group.  Certainly the results were the first to be captured on film, with a paper trail of the structure of the system.
That is certainly an arguable position.  I would counter that the Armenian tragedy was well known - over a million died, and peace treaties ending WWI called for tribunals to punish those responsible.  Photographic evidene also abounded - some pictures are posted at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide.  Likewise, the Ukrainian "famine" was well known to the international community - 26 countries officialy recognize it as genocide.  Even the famine of the early 20's was manipulated for politcal advantage: The American Relief Administration, which Herbert Hoover had formed to help the starvation of WWI, had offered assistance to Lenin in 1919, on condition that they have full say over the Russian railway network and hand out food impartially to all; Lenin refused this as "interference in Russian internal affairs".  While foreign aid agencies, who's workers sometimes died of cholera, were struggling to feed starving children in 1923, Lenin's regime was selling grain for export, for profit.  Japanese wholesale rape and slaughtering of non-combatants, as well as the testing of biological weapons on them, and the forced prostitution of the "comfort women" was known at high levels of government as well as the Nazi cromes


Quote
For perspective and context:  This is before TV, okay?  This is before world travel by Joe Sixpack or his kids.  Think of the American attitude of favoring the underdog.  Consider the reaction when you go to a movie with the wife and kids and there in the MovieTone Newsreel is footage of our GIs helping walking skeletons to ambulances.  Footage of the mass graves, some not yet covered at the time of our Army's arrival.  Then the word starts getting around that we turned down efforts of many German Jews to get visas to come into the US before the War.  Add in the Jewish population in the U.S. and their reaction to this new knowledge of what specifically happened to their relatives and friends.  And then what came out at the Nuremburg trials.

Is it any wonder that "The Holocaust" became a big deal, and focussed on the Jews?  How or why could it be otherwise?

Art
I can't answer for "how" it could be otherwise. but I'll take a stab at "why" - because ALL human life is precious.  Just because someone is from a different race, or worships differently than me, or comes from a different part of the world and speaks a different language, has a different culture - doesn't make HIS life any less valuable in the grand scheme of things than mine.  Just because race "A" has suffered a tragedy that claimed 6 million lives DOESN'T it make it ANY LESS of a tragedy when race "B" looses 2 million lives, or race "C" looses 250,000 in one incident (Japanese reprisals for the Doolittle raid) or 400,000 in another (rape of Nanking).
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« Reply #69 on: August 14, 2006, 03:12:13 AM »

Quote from: The Rabbi
Clever.  So you focus on the deaths of people.  In that sense, one death is the same as any other, whether it is from war, disease, natural disaster, etc.  Since death is death there is nothing more to be said about it, except lament and forget.
We are talking about deaths intentionally caused for no legitimate reason by murderous regimes,....and I think you know that.

Quote
The Holocaust was unique from previous persecutions in any number of ways.  Previous persecutions were carried out by governments and entities that had no idea of the rule of law or citizens' rights.
Armenian genocide, 1914 - 1918 by the Ottoman Turks.  Manipulated famine to cause deaths 1919 - 1923 by Lenin's Communist government.  Ukraine genocide 1932 - 1933: 7 million dead by Stalin's Russain government.  Japanese war crimes in the China/Burma theater, 1933 - 1945: millions dead.  Do you SERIOUSLY contend that the governments responsible "had no idea of the rule of law or citizen's rights"?

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The Jews of Germany theoretically were protected by the Weimar Constitution, a system of parliamentary laws and courts of justice.
The Ukranians were "theoretically" protected by the Soviet Constitution - the Armenians by the Ottoman constituion.  It didn't help any more than Germany's did.
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Prior persecutions were conducted by essentially barbarians without the ideas and outlooks of the Enlightenment.
...so your position is the Enlightenment "skipped" Turkey, Russia, and Japan?
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The Holocaust was perpetrated by people who saw themselves, rightly, as the most advanced civilization that had ever existed,...
I've dealt with that canard in this thread already.  One of the most advanced, perhaps.  I seem to recall the airplane, motion picture, electric power, electric light bulb, telephone, vacuum tube, radio, television, phonograph, radar, proximity fuse, semi-automatic and automatic weapons, liquid fueled rocket, tank, aircraft carrier, synthetic rubber, synthetic silk, the atomic bomb, air conditioning, digital computer, etc. being invented in other countries...

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advanced technologically,...
They were certainly nothing to sneeze at in that regard - but they were hardly in a league of their own.
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legally,....
I would submit their very LACK of advencement "legally" is what lead to their doom.  Great Britain and the United States had FAR more effective legal and political institutions in place.
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artistically,...
Again, nothing to sneeze at, but nothing that the French, Italians, and (on a good day) the Russians couldn't match.
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and morally.
...got some evidence for that assertion?
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Previous persecutions were the result of religious agitation.  In Germany many "Jews" died who were in fact practicing Catholics or Protestants but had a Jewish ancestor.
Its fairly well established that RACE, not religion, was the basis for the Nazi genocide.  A twisted example of where the dark trail of eugenics can lead.
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In previous persecutions, Jews could save their lives by converting to Islam (c'v) or, worse, Christianity.
Again, the Nazi theories were RACE, rather than RELIGION, based.

Why do you consider forced conversion to Islam to be preferable to forced conversion to Christianity?
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In Germany there was no such out.  In previous persecutions, the Jewish community could sometimes stave off violence by offering big bribes.  In Germany there was, with one small exception, no such out.  In previous persecutions Jews could leave the country and escape persecution.  After a certain point Germany would not let them escape.  Previous persecutions were local events, the Holocaust was part of a grand plan to wipe out the entire Jewish people.
What you say is true.  What you leave out is it was also a "grand plan" to wipe out Slavs, Gypsies, Armenians, Poles, eventualy anyone who got in the way of "Greater Germany".
Quote
So when you lump the Holocaust in with Cambodia or Darfur or Bosnia or any number of other tragic slaughters you gain no insight into the event.  It simply blurs together with so many others that no lesson or insight is possible.
That is one way of regarding the matter, and I can't fault you for holding to it.  My counter postion is that by looking at the Jweish Holocaust ALONG WITH the manifold other tragedies, some common elements are manifest, and that by doing so, one might actually PREVENT a re-occurance.  The common factors to almost all of these incidents are as follows:

A aggressive, violent, young government born out of warfare or revolution, and configured as a socialist oligarchy with a (paranoid) "strong man" leader.
A national belief that the "rest of the world is against us".
Economic turmoil with either natural or man-made (agriculteral reform...land reform) (or both) crop disruption, and runaway inflation or currency reform.
Racial, tribal, or religious strife, with one group singled out as "causing" or "profiting" from the current situation.
Blaming that minority group for "conspiring with enemies of the State".
Strong security apparatus, to not only carry out the extermination, but prevent leaking of the news to the outside.
A military unwilling or unable to function as a check on the government.
Corrupt or ineffective courts and legislatures.
A distracted international community and/or weak, corrupt, and ineffective organs of international governance (League of Nations, U.N.).


Its my hope that by looking at what the Jewish Holocaust has in common with other such recent examples of man's inhumanity to man that we can be alert to the conditions that spawn it, and take early action if need be to prevent it.  Perhaps I am just a dreamer.  I would like the term "Never again" to apply not only to the Jewish people, but to all people.
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« Reply #70 on: August 14, 2006, 03:26:31 AM »

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Why do you consider forced conversion to Islam to be preferable to forced conversion to Christianity?
Because Islam is monotheistic and makes no claims about the divinity of its prophets?
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« Reply #71 on: August 14, 2006, 04:37:09 AM »

Quote from: Barbara
Quote
Why do you consider forced conversion to Islam to be preferable to forced conversion to Christianity?
Because Islam is monotheistic and makes no claims about the divinity of its prophets?
Give that woman a cigar.
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« Reply #72 on: August 14, 2006, 04:50:06 AM »

Quote from: Barbara
Quote
Why do you consider forced conversion to Islam to be preferable to forced conversion to Christianity?
Because Islam is monotheistic and makes no claims about the divinity of its prophets?
Christianity is monotheistic, and makes no claim of divinity for any prophet.  It does contend that an omnipotent, all-powerful God can manifest himself in more than one way, but there is only one God.
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« Reply #73 on: August 14, 2006, 05:11:41 AM »

That is the common Christian position, but most Jews, Muslims and some Christians view it differently.
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« Reply #74 on: August 14, 2006, 05:49:11 AM »

So, rather than implying an incorrect statement; "Christianity is unabashedly polytheistic," you could make a correct statement; "Jews view Christianity as polytheistic."  Not to mention it's more respectful.
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