Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?

[Guest]

I made a statement about Islam and why a Jew may view it as less offensive. I never mentioned Christianity at all in it. If you find that statement offensive, then I apologize.

[richyoung]

That is the common Christian position, but most Jews, Muslims and some Christians view it differently.

I should think that the "common Christian position" would be the authoritative one.  If I had a question about Judeaism, I would:

1.  Want the "common Jewish position", from a:
2.  Jew who knew and prefereably held, that position.

Why would one expect those not in a religion, and presumably with less experience with it, to have a more authoratative viewpoint?

[Guest]

That's fine. However, I would define myself as Christian, but others would not, so there you go. Religious beliefs aren't always as black and white as following a creed established by a vote several centuries ago.

[Perd Hapley]

a creed established by a vote several centuries ago.

Barbara, do you enjoying opening cans of worms?  The creed was not "established" by a vote - it was established by Christ and those who knew him in the flesh.

[Perd Hapley]

I made a statement about Islam and why a Jew may view it as less offensive. I never mentioned Christianity at all in it. If you find that statement offensive, then I apologize.

Barbara, I would have expected better from you.  You can't deny you made certain implications about Christianity, or at least about the Jewish view thereof.

[Iain]

You can't deny you made certain implications about Christianity, or at least about the Jewish view thereof.

Why would one expect those not in a religion, and presumably with less experience with it, to have a more authoratative viewpoint?

Someone really pushed some buttons here. How many footnotes and subclauses in Barbara's post would have avoided that?

[Guest]

Yeah, no kidding.

[Guest]

I'm not sure what "better" you expected of me, though. I stated facts. Jews are monotheistic. Muslims are monotheistic. Islam claims an inspired prophet (several) but doesn't claim he was devine. No one of any religion argues any of those points. Most Christians consider themselves monotheistic, but not all of them, and Jews and Muslims don't consider them to be. So, when the question, "Why would a Jew prefer to be forced to convert to Islam" the answer is because it is a monotheistic religion. From a Jewish (and Islamic and some Christian') perspective, Catholic/Mainstream Christians are polytheistic and claim divinity for someone other religions don't accept. Whether you consider yourself monotheistic or polytheistic doesn't have any bearing on why a Jew would rather be forced to accept Islam over Christianity. In that case, it is his or her beliefs that matter, not yours.

[The Rabbi]

I'm not sure what "better" you expected of me, though. I stated facts. Jews are monotheistic. Muslims are monotheistic. Islam claims an inspired prophet (several) but doesn't claim he was devine. No one of any religion argues any of those points. Most Christians consider themselves monotheistic, but not all of them, and Jews and Muslims don't consider them to be. So, when the question, "Why would a Jew prefer to be forced to convert to Islam" the answer is because it is a monotheistic religion. From a Jewish (and Islamic and some Christian') perspective, Catholic/Mainstream Christians are polytheistic and claim divinity for someone other religions don't accept. Whether you consider yourself monotheistic or polytheistic doesn't have any bearing on why a Jew would rather be forced to accept Islam over Christianity. In that case, it is his or her beliefs that matter, not yours.

I am relatively certain that for most Muslims, Christianity is not idol worship and Christians are included in the category of "People Of The Book."  In the Wahhabi flavor of Islam, even some Muslims are not included in that category.
A Jew is required to give up his life rather than convert to Christianity.  He is not required to do so for Islam, although many did.

[Perd Hapley]

A Jew is required to give up his life rather than convert to Christianity.  He is not required to do so for Islam, although many did.

Why is Islam preferrable to death?

[The Rabbi]

A Jew is required to give up his life rather than convert to Christianity.  He is not required to do so for Islam, although many did.

Why is Islam preferrable to death?

"cause it's not considered a'z.

[Perd Hapley]

Rabbi,

Your tendency to post in Hebrew is getting old.  You know most of us don't understand it, so what's the point?

[Ezekiel]

Rabbi,

Your tendency to post in Hebrew is getting old.  You know most of us don't understand it, so what's the point?

Elitism?

[Perd Hapley]

More like an appeal to his own authority, I think.

[The Rabbi]

More like an appeal to his own authority, I think.

Sorry to disappoint both of you.
First the fact that you can argue about a book you've never read would be amazing, but this is the internet.  But you've never read the Hebrew Bible, only translations of it, which is far from the same thing.  For that matter you may never have read the Christian Bible either.
Second, terms in Hebrew have a very specific nexus of meanings.  So when I write that Christianity is "a'z", meaning avodah zora, I mean just that.  What is "avodah zora"?  It is commonly translated as "idol worship".  The christian will respond "but we dont worship idols."  That is true.  And irrelevant.  Because avoda zora encompasses a complex concept in which pieces of wood or stone are largely irrelevant.  So whether something is or is not avoda zora depends on definitions in Jewish Law and is the subject of debate.  The debate occurs regardless of era or locale, but in the conversation known as halakha.  So any discussion would include comments by Maimonides (Spain 1200),  Rabbi Moses Isserles (Cracow 1600), Rabbi Moses Feinstein (d. NYC 1986),  and Rabbis Ovadia Yosef and Eliezer Waldenberg (contemporary, Israel).  That is just the short list.
Eventually there is a consensus reached.  And here the consensus is that a Jew violates the prohibition of avoda zora by converting to Christianity and that this violation is in the stringent category of things one must sacrifice his life for.  And the consensus generally is that it is prohibited to a Jew to convert to Islam but it is not in the category that he must sacrifice his life for.

[Ezekiel]

And here the consensus is that a Jew violates the prohibition of avoda zora by converting to Christianity and that this violation is in the stringent category of things one must sacrifice his life for.  And the consensus generally is that it is prohibited to a Jew to convert to Islam but it is not in the category that he must sacrifice his life for.

And how, exactly, does this get back to the Jewish self-exultation of the Nazi Holocaust as being anything other than a historically typical example of genocide?

I'm sorry, were you guys forced to walk across a continent back to the Nation created for you after WWII?  (No?)  Or, does this go back >2,000 years when nobody could determine that Egypt was a wilderness?

Damn, you actually got a Nation on specified/owned land, supported by the US government, after being treated poorly?

What's that like?

The Holocaust was not special.

You're self-righteousness -- as, likely, mine -- is terribly annoying.

[grampster]

Man, I swore I wasn't gonna get involved in this conversation anymore, mostly because it has veered off the point and actually now has no point.

Religion is an intensely personal thing.   A conversation like this ought to be more geared to gaining insight and knowledge, not point-counterpoint.  It is interesting to delve into other beliefs.  None of you are going to change your minds about what you believe, other than to perhaps re-solidify those beliefs.  (That might be the only redeeming feature I can see regarding the 4 pages so far.)  That is patently obvious.

We've all gained a bit over the months, and I think most of us have established a bit of friendship; albiet an odd one because of the medium.  Why don't ya'll start acting a bit more like (at least) aquaintances and let the offhanded snideness take a rest for awhile.  

I have observed that all of you seem to be quite bright.  I don't hold a candle to many of you in that regard.  But, I'd rather be taught than lectured.  Make me curious, don't insult my good temper and lose my interest by engaging in a slugfest rather than a pleasant discussion that reveals things that perhaps are not well understood.

Back on topic:  The world is rife with the slaughter of one group by another for many reasons.  For some reason, (I have an idea why) what happened at the hand of Hitler and his minions serves as a benchmark for brutality and murder.  They elevated it to an industry!!  They built factories and transportation systems, had bookkeeping, organized the collection of wealth down to gold teeth, slave labor, obscene medicine; all of it in their horror filled time.  It was organized tightly and it was a business!!  That is not to diminish the brutality and horror of other regimes.  Pehaps the Communists came close with their Gulags.  The Jews were part of that as well.  The rest was indiscriminate, if not organized, slaughter; but not quite as intense, and organized.
The Jews have been the focus of history since the time of Abraham.  Perhaps there is a reason.  I'll leave it to you to ponder that.

[Stand_watie]

Rabbi,

Your tendency to post in Hebrew is getting old.  You know most of us don't understand it, so what's the point?

If you wish to compare Hebrew Biblical texts to English translation (won't help in this specific instance), here is a resource I've found that will give you side by side Hebrew and English translations.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

[Perd Hapley]

So, rather than say, "Christianity is considered idol worship," you pull out this a-z-watchamacalit.  Neither charge makes much sense, but at least with the first you're still speaking the same language as your interlocuter, namely me.  Answering in Hebrew is like not answering at all.

But I was not asking you about Christianity, I was asking how converting to Islam could possibly be acceptable to a Jew.  I would die first, I would have assumed you would, too.

[The Rabbi]

So, rather than say, "Christianity is considered idol worship," you pull out this a-z-watchamacalit.  Neither charge makes much sense, but at least with the first you're still speaking the same language as your interlocuter, namely me.  Answering in Hebrew is like not answering at all.

But I was not asking you about Christianity, I was asking how converting to Islam could possibly be acceptable to a Jew.  I would die first, I would have assumed you would, too.

1) I think I explained all that.
2) I explained that too.  Your assumption is unwarranted.

[Perd Hapley]

1) I think I explained all that.
2) I explained that too.  Your assumption is unwarranted.

Wrong on both counts.  
The first you can't explain, because the position is simply wrong and no argument will suffice.  
The second you have not even begun to explain.  
What assumption?

Would you be so kind as to give me just a few major differences between the Hebrew bible and a good English translation?  Something other than the order of the books; something with theological import.  
Have you read the New Testament in the Greek?

[The Rabbi]

1) I think I explained all that.
2) I explained that too.  Your assumption is unwarranted.

Wrong on both counts.  

Would you be so kind as to give me just a few major differences between the Hebrew bible and a good English translation?  Something other than the order of the books; something with theological import.  
Have you read the New Testament in the Greek?

Here is the famous King James:

LEV 15:24 And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean.

I wont even ask you to explain this because I know you have no idea what this means. No one could without access to the original.  But as English it is not only incomprehensible, it is also misleading.
I was a grad student in Classics for about 5 years so ended up with about 8 years of Latin and 5 of Greek.  And yes, Koine Greek (Christian Bible) was one of the courses.

[Ezekiel]

I wont even ask you to explain this because I know you have no idea what this means.

Definitely, Elitism.

[The Rabbi]

I wont even ask you to explain this because I know you have no idea what this means.

Definitely, Elitism.

Yeah.  Education's a bitch.

Try reading one sentence further in my post.

[Iain]

Is there a trick to this?

I'm think I know what that verse essentially means.