Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?

[richyoung]

rich, what does that have to do with Islam's monotheism or lack thereof?

Its origins are in the pantheistic tribal arabian religions, NOT a montotheistic heritage.

[The Rabbi]

rich, what does that have to do with Islam's monotheism or lack thereof?

Its origins are in the pantheistic tribal arabian religions, NOT a montotheistic heritage.

Arguably the same could be said for both Judaism and Christianity.  It is irrelevant to what the religion became.

[Perd Hapley]

Good post.  Liberal commentators have often said this about Judaism and Christianity.  No matter what Allah may have been, orthodox Muslims regard him as the only god.

[Ezekiel's_Buddy]

Presumably he was banned for not being able to disagree without calling other people names, not for being anti-anything.

I could ask him.  He does not seem to care but he did talk about nobody telling him anything.  He was like this when we were in graduate school together but he was right a lot.

[Ezekiel's_Buddy]

...don't feed the trolls.

It's hard not to sometimes. *sigh*

I've actually enjoyed this thread. I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread in a calm, mature manner. I have learned a lot, even if tempers have been raised occasionally.

I read the thread and found nothing upsetting from anyone because anyone can have an opinion and nobody should be above question.  I think everyone in this thread needs a whiskey and Zeke made some good points and like he said rabbi and cosine seem okay.

[Ezekiel]

Hey, what happened to Barbara?

[Perd Hapley]

Zeke:

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=6077.msg94452#msg94452

[SkunkApe]

This thread needs more Pastafarians.

[slzy]

i admit i did not read all 7 pages. i have just counted my holocaust volumes and they number 29. so,i can't go right to which book i read it in,but iirc,there were records on around 5.8 million one way tickets,believe it or not,they were re-imbursing the rail road. so,the toll must go way over 6 million.

[CAnnoneer]

Yes, those damn Jews ought to stop whining and get on with it.

We are in literal agreement.

There was nothing new or unique about the final solution. Ezekiel is right in that other victims need a far better publicist. Note that even the accepted term today is a jewish word, thereby tacitly laying claim of ownership.

To answer Art's points, an outside observer may indeed perceive that jews were productive loyal citizens, but that was not the stance of the nazi state. To Hitler's reich, they were a pernicious internal enemy on racial, political, and economic grounds. The state viewed them as a huge security problem which has to be addressed. In that sense, it is no different than Stalin's state killing off Ukrainians and Cossacks by artificially caused famines, again as political and economic enemies of the state. It is also known that Stalin as a Georgian had a deep-seated contempt and hatred for Russians, and some attribute his cavalier attitude to their lives to his desire to see them killed.

Generally, slaughter on ethnic grounds is nothing new in human history. RichYoung gave plenty of relevant examples. Whether it is done by an industrial nation or a barbarian nation makes no difference - in both cases one group of humans wants to eliminate another. I at least do not see why technological advancement would ameliorate the genocidal tendencies of Homo Sapiens. If anything, it would facilitate them.

Rabbi mentioned someplace in this thread that the elimination of the European jews was part of a plan for total elimination. I would agree if we are talking about 1942 and Himmler's & co. plans. But, at least I have read of no evidence that that was Hitler's intention since the get-go. I don't remember anything to that effect in Mein Kampf, although his contempt for jews is clear. It is my belief that extermination was tabled due to the logistic impossibility of policing millions of perceived internal enemies, as well as in an attempt to mete retribution for the war dragging on and killing German soldiers due to perceived international jewish conspiracies.

Overall, IMO the significance of the Final Solution is furiously spun and wielded like a political club, especially by pro-jewish groups.

[Ezekiel]

Overall, IMO the significance of the Final Solution is furiously spun and wielded like a political club, especially by pro-jewish groups.

I couldn't agree more.

[roo_ster]

Heat & light in one thread!

Wow, I have not clicked on this thread, lo these many months and I miss out on one of the more interesting discussions.

Perhaps I can help with some of the more awkard questions.

Unrequited Philosemetism
What many Christians* do not understand is that a whole lot of orthodox Jews really do not like Christians and Christianity.  TR has alluded to this, without coming out & writing it.  All one has to do is take a gander at some of the big boys' writings TR mentioned earlier.  Not many kind things and many unkind things were written about Christianity by the rabbis of note after exile.  One might think, "Hey, look how they were treated by some Christians...THAT's why they have a chip on thier shoulder."  Oh, I have no doubt that is some part of some individuals' sentiments, but the anti-Christian point of view is entirely supported by a reading of the materials outside of any ill treatment by Christians.

This dislike manifests itself more openly nowadays, since the secuirty of the Jewish ethnic group and orthodox Judaism is at a high point in history, given the populations in Israel & the USA.  Most, however, are sharp enough to not alienate potential allies (in their support of Israel) and others maintain a lower profile due to survival behaviors learned over time.  Thus, verbal circumlocutions and demurrals are often resorted to in interfaith dialog (on both sides).

Others are not so worried about giving offense.  FWIW, roughly 2/3 of the Israelis who I also knew were orthodox Jews have openly expressed such sentiments in no uncertain and quite colorful language in my presence.  This is not a statistically valid sample, obviously, but serves as an example.

One last note.  Just because a particular religion is held in low regard by another in its scriptures & commentaries, is not determinative of any individual's predilictions.  Also, there are several interfaith groups that work to forward causes dear to both orthodox Christianity and orthodox Judaism.  Folks & organizations can and do look past such obstacles. 

To generalize, folks who take their faith seriously often have similar habits, POVs, etc. in other areas and can get along quite swimmingly, if each can manage to be civil on faith matters. 

When the Other Option Is Persection...
Why have Jews "tolerated" living around Christians?  They had no other choice, since the Romans went after them, hammer & tongs & sent them packing.  A religious/cultural minority is not in a position to dictate terms to the majority.




* Especially evangelicals with the fairly recent (developed in late 1800s)  pre-millenarian eschatology (ie., folks to whom the Left Behind books are correct in their general eschatology). 

[The Rabbi]

Wow.
People used to tell me, "scratch a goy" and I never believed them.  What an eye-opener.
Wow is all I can say.

[roo_ster]

gunsmith posted:

Well thats because Stalin did it, it's ok to kill millions if you have a liberal agenda.

Stalin was a communist, not a liberal.

He surely was not a classical liberal and not even a 20th-century liberal.

Thing is, many 20th -century liberals ascribed to the view, "No enemies to the left*," and refused to criticize to oppose him.

Thus, they get to own him to some extent.  See Walter Duranty & the NYT for a  case in point.  Also, the liberal attitudes toward involvement in WWII are very instructive.  Anti-war...until the USSR is faced with annihilation...then they beat the drums for he USA to get involved to save their mustacioed lefty.


* Still operative late in the 20th century, as the liberal "Sandalistas" found in Ortega their darling lefty.

[Ezekiel]

There is a school of thought within Judaism that believes that if you "scratch a goy" you find an anti-Semite.  I sincerely hope that The Rabbi is not a student of that school.  It would be most "disappointing," if nothing else.

[roo_ster]

Wow.
People used to tell me, "scratch a goy" and I never believed them.  What an eye-opener.
Wow is all I can say.

Yep, it is true some of the time.  I think I addressed the other side of the coin above.

Humanity will never entirely eradicate dis-favor toward out-groups and favor toward in-groups.  Every act & attitude that strives toward equality & decent treatment of the "other*" is a triumph over our corrupt human nature.


*  However one defines "other"

[CAnnoneer]

Who is supposed to be the anti-semite here? I am getting confused.

[Matthew Carberry]

I've got the list down to Hitler, Stalin and Goya (though I only know him from his art).

[roo_ster]

Six Millions
As to the 6 millions figure, I am convinced the number supported by the data is near enough to that number that "6 million" serves just fine.

I also beleive that facts and accuracy matters, so foks who deny the approximate number in the face of supporting facts best have some other facts to support their contention. 

Other Nazi Victims
Yep, they often have had short shrift.  Ezekiel has written of marketing, as if it is a bad thing.  I don't see it as such.  Ignorance of widespread atrocity is not a good thing.  In marketing, as in all pursuits, some will be more effective than others.

The only tme I get sore is when some of the ADL types scream "anti-semetism" as a response to legitimate criticism or debate.  That gets old and undermines Abe Foxman's credibility.

Uniqueness of Holocaust
I think Art write what is close to my POV. 

The power of film and the sheer magnitude of the atrocity was unique.

There are many other mass-killings in history that can be compared to the capital "H" Holocaust in ways: proportion, utility, race, religion, economics, potential threat, etc.  There are reasons the Holocaust stands out.

• Magnitude.  At 6 million, it was less in absolute numbers than Stalin's & Mao's killings and a smaller proportion of the countries' populations than Pol Pot's killings, but Stalin, Mao, & Pol Pot had folks in our country/culture playing interference for them.  To The American public, the Holocaust was the biggest & baddest to date.
• Visibility.  We did not have film footage of Stalin's purges & terror-famines.  The power of film seared the Holocaust images on to folks' minds.  Ezekiel's marketing played a part, too.
• Guilt.  All the countries that could have taken in refugees, but didn't, had call for shame. 
• Sytematic.  In Rawanda, the Hutus butchered ~800K Tutsis over a matter of weeks with machetes.  Their rate of killing exceeded the Nazi's.  What the Nazis had, though, was a bureaucracy dedicated to the systematic butchering of non-combatant humans.  Despite Ezekiel's claims that the USA did something similar, this is unique.
• European/"Civilized" Perpetrator.   Germany was a participant in the Enlightenment and was second only to the USA in industrial capacity.  Yeah, anti-semitism was ubiquitous in Europe, but denying a Jew entrance into the toniest clubs is not on the same plane as genocide.  I think folks were shocked that such a thing was perpetrated by a euopean power on the european continent. Recall back to the European cries about Serbian enthic cleansing "on the continent of Europe" back in the 1990s.

---

Anyway, thats my $0.02 on the OP.

[De Selby]

My .02 c's:

If you think that other atrocities were just as bad, the proper response is to increase awareness of and revulsion to those atrocities....not to compare them to the Nazi genocide for the purpose of declaring it "nothing special."

The fact that genocide has happened more than once isn't a legitimate reason for accusing victims and those sympathetic to victims of the roughly 2000 year long attempted-annihilation of Jews  of "marketing" the holocaust.

It was without qualification equal to the worst of crimes ever perpetrated against humanity.  I think there can be legitimate criticism of holocaust memorial narratives in politics (I don't think Norman Finkelstein is an evil man, for example...he has some legitimate gripes), but most of it isn't.  Most of the criticism is very thinly masked "Jews are controlling our media for their benefit!" language.

[richyoung]

Heat & light in one thread!

Wow, I have not clicked on this thread, lo these many months and I miss out on one of the more interesting discussions.

Perhaps I can help with some of the more awkard questions.

Unrequited Philosemetism
What many Christians* do not understand is that a whole lot of orthodox Jews really do not like Christians and Christianity. 

Interesting.  In your opinion, doies this attitude contribute to incidents such as the Lavan affair, the attack on the Liberty, expionage, etc?  

[richyoung]

It was without qualification equal to the worst of crimes ever perpetrated against humanity. 

I don't think you can defend that position, in either absolute or relative terms.  Neither in nature, duration, motivation, nor magnitude does it compare to similar events already listed in this thread.

[De Selby]

richyoung,

Let's see:

An industrialized campaign to wipe out an entire religion and ethnic group.  Killed 6 million people.  That 6 million represented a huge portion of the total population of that group.

How exactly can you do worse? 

[French G.]

I don't think the numbers matter. Every time I expose myself to more information about the holocaust I am shocked. Shocked that the world let it happen by believing it could not happen. Shocked that it's victims did the same. Shocked that anyone could deny it. The gun range was closed the other week so I wandered into the bookstore and read all of Elie Wiesel's "Night" while standing there in the store.  His family could have known what was coming a year before they were even put into ghettos but they refused to believe the only man who bore witness. They could have fled to Palestine, but they told themselves war would not come to them. They lost everything by complying with authority.

 

[The Rabbi]

Shootin,
If you care to look back a few pages, you will find I listed many reasons why the Holocaust was worse, the ones you gave among them.  I mentioned both the level of civilization of Germany in the 1930s, the lack of any gain to the Nazis by their actions (indeed, the extermination tied up valuable rolling stock they could have used in the war effort), the thoroughness of the exploit, the lack of concern among the rest of the world, etc etc etc.
Richyoung attempted to refute all of these cogent points with arguments of the most trivial nature, none of them persuasive.
You are wasting your time.