Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?

[richyoung]

Can we agree on something? It was a horrendous atrocity as was Stalin, Pol Pot, Rwanda, Darfur, etc, etc, ad nauseum. All perpetuated by the holders of state power. We as a nation are periously close to disarming ourselves. Perhaps we should remember all of these as we forever reserve the right to shoot the bastards. Hopefully in our time we will not deny what is happening until we have no choice other than to get on the train. When in doubt, shoot a tyrant.

+1.  Amen.

[The Rabbi]

It matters because you have to ask what the motivation was to do something that not only did not help their war effort, but actually impeded it.

What effect did Stalin;s purge of his officer corps in 1937 have on the performance of his military when Germany invaded?

  Most genocides take place when one party sees an advantage to committing genocide to another.  In the case of the Turks against the Armenians, or Stalin against the Ukrainians the purpose is to quell a troublesome minority.  Here there was no purpose beyond Nazi ideology.  That is one factor making it unique.

When they stand you up against the wall, does "why?" really matter?  Is there any "good" or "less evil" reason for such madness?

Huh?
Stalin's purge happened years before the Nazi invasion.  What does that have to do with anything?
No one is standing anyone else against the wall here.  Yes, there is a more evil and less evil reason for the same reason that killing someone to get something valuable is at least perceived as a whole lot less evil than killing someone because he looked at you wrong.

[richyoung]

Huh?
Stalin's purge happened years before the Nazi invasion.  What does that have to do with anything?

Stalin's purge happened at the same time that German oppression of Jews as government policy began.  Kristallnacht was November, 1938 - is it not considered part of the Holocaust?  YOUR argument is that the Jewish Holocaust ALONE was undertaken:
A. against its own citizens,
B. "for no reason", and
C. to the detriment of the war-making ability of the country that did it, whereas * I* contend that the Stalin officer purge was undertaken
A. against its own citizens,
B.  "for no rason", (certainly, no more "rational" reason was advanced than for the "final solution"), and
C. to the PROFOUND detriment of the war-making capability of the country did it, as evidenced by their performance for the first half of WWII.

No one is standing anyone else against the wall here.  Yes, there is a more evil and less evil reason for the same reason that killing someone to get something valuable is at least perceived as a whole lot less evil than killing someone because he looked at you wrong.

Not in my book.  Who so percieves it?

[The Rabbi]

Based on your logic the Iraq War has been undertaken against its own citizens (American soldiers are dying), for no reason (is there ever a reason to go to war?), and to the detriment of its war making capability.
Would it do any good, any good at all, to point out that Hitler's genocidal campaign took place during war while Stalin's took place before the war?
Would it also do any good to point out that Stalin was acting to avert the perceived threat to his own rule by the army, a threat that may have been real while Hitler's actions were against people who were not necessarily opposing him and posed no threat?

[Ezekiel]

Would it do any good, any good at all, to point out that Hitler's genocidal campaign took place during war while Stalin's took place before the war?

Only if you're endeavoring to erroneously report that any one such atrocity is more evil, heinous or inherently "wrong" than another.  (sigh)

Pointless...

[Matthew Carberry]

And as I thought about it more, that theory only deals with Nazi actions towards German Jews.  They only made up about 2% of the population.  They were hardly wealthy, although some members were.
It does not explain the actions towards the rest of European Jewry, most of whom were poor with little possessions.

Actually, if I'm understanding the book I haven't actually read correctly, the Nazi's theft program applied to Jews and other sub-races and anyone they didn't like everywhere they went.  Trains of loot rolled in to buttress the economy, keep the factories pumping out consumer goods and keep the German Volk nice and satiated.

The theory is not saying theft is why the Jews were slaughtered, it simply covers the motivation for Nazi theft from anyone from day one, which is different from why they chose to actually kill all those people instead of just robbing them and sending them on their way. 

Though the thefts, besides maintaining the welfare state, also helped defray the cost of shipping the victims to their doom.  win-win situation

[richyoung]

Based on your logic the Iraq War has been undertaken against its own citizens (American soldiers are dying), for no reason (is there ever a reason to go to war?), and to the detriment of its war making capability.

I leave to the gentle reader to determine for his or her self the absurdity of that claimed equivalence.

Would it do any good, any good at all, to point out that Hitler's genocidal campaign took place during war while Stalin's took place before the war?

1937 verses 1938?  You REALLY don't think the 'Final Solution" was being cooked up before Poland got the one-two from Hitler and Stalin?  You REALLY want to say one year makes that much difference, such that one should be considered, and the other not?

Would it also do any good to point out that Stalin was acting to avert the perceived threat to his own rule by the army, a threat that may have been real ....

Right.  97% of his officers were "conspiring against him".  Or, maybe... the officers were a convenient scape goat, just like the Jews in Germany?

[Perd Hapley]

Just when I thought this thread was a total mess, Iraq comes up.  At least that's something on which all parties can agree. 

[CAnnoneer]

Most genocides take place when one party sees an advantage to committing genocide to another.  In the case of the Turks against the Armenians, or Stalin against the Ukrainians the purpose is to quell a troublesome minority.  Here there was no purpose beyond Nazi ideology.  That is one factor making it unique.

Communism is an ideology, so your Ukrainian example makes no sense. Nationalism is an ideology as well, so your Armenian example makes no sense either.

[Monkeyleg]

Forgive me. I didn't read "The GLag Archipelago" by Solzhenitzin. I just read about it in the newspapers.

Given such ignorance, I have to ask: did the Soviets have camps with trains that regularly delivered prisoners? Did these camps have special equipment to move these prisoners quickly from the train cars to the showers to the gas chambers and then to the crematoriums?

I'm not trying to be a wise-ass by asking. I'm just trying to find out if there has ever been such a mechanized and industrial effort to wipe out an entire race and religion in prior history.

As others have pointed out, if not for the efforts and expenditures of men and materials devoted to "The Final Solution," Nazi Germany might well have prevailed.

Also, why did certain members of Hitler's inner circle get a pass, despite their having some Jewish heritage in their backgrounds? (Easy enough to answer).

[Cosmoline]

I've talked with many Europeans on line, and I have never had any doubt after those conversations that the Holocaust took place and that at least six million Jews were killed.  Of course, most never even saw a gas chamber.  The killing included everything from forced labor without food to plain old murder by neighboring Poles, Germans or Frenchmen.  The old hatred is absolutely still there, right under the surface.  Though it usually manifests itself as hatred of "Zionists" and Israel these days.  This started long before Hitler and will continue far into the future.  The Europeans have always hated Jews, and probably always will. 

They hate each other as well, but there's a difference.  The Russians may hate the Ukranians, and visa versa, but they can unite over beer and vodka to discuss their mutual hatred of the Juden.  The hatred of the Jews is the first hatred, which is why their slaughter during WWII stands out even among so much bloodshed.  Poles helped German invaders round up the Jews.  The Polish resistance stood by and let the Jews get overwhelmed in Warsaw in 1943.  The French were the same.  The Hungarians, at the very end of the Nazi empire, but still took the time to round up all their Jews and ship them off to death.  No Germans forced them, they put everything else aside to see to it.  Everywhere, enemies united in their hatred of Jews.  And only the surface has changed.

[ilbob]

I think the six million figure often cited is probably on the high side, but it is hard for me to quibble over what the exact number is. The fact is we don't know, and never will know with any certanty. We do know for a fact that it numbered in the millions.

I don't consider murdering 3 million people less offensive than murdering six million.

[Laurent du Var]

The Europeans have always hated Cosmoline, and probably always will, especially for writing unfunded and overgeneralizing posts. 

There, I fixed it for you.

[Ezekiel]

I don't consider murdering 3 million people less offensive than murdering six million.

"Concur."

Further, murdering Jews is no more significant than murdering anyone else: a reality that really seems to set some people off...

Just when I thought this thread was a total mess, Iraq comes up.  At least that's something on which all parties can agree.

I love subtle, not terribly snarky, sarcasm.  "Nice." 

[The Rabbi]

Would it do any good, any good at all, to point out that Hitler's genocidal campaign took place during war while Stalin's took place before the war?

1937 verses 1938?  You REALLY don't think the 'Final Solution" was being cooked up before Poland got the one-two from Hitler and Stalin?  You REALLY want to say one year makes that much difference, such that one should be considered, and the other not?

Are you on something?  Or are you totally ignorant of the history here?  There was no Final Solution in 1937 or 1938.  Or 1940 for that matter, which is when my father in law escaped Hamburg.  The Final Solution didnt start until 1942 when Germany was already at war.  Stalin's purges happened long before he contemplated getting into war.  He had even signed a peace accord with Germany.
If you cannot understand that simple distinction then Gd bless you.

[Ezekiel]

There was no Final Solution in 1937 or 1938.  Or 1940 for that matter, which is when my father in law escaped Hamburg.  The Final Solution didnt start until 1942 when Germany was already at war.

You imply such was generated in a vacuum?  (sigh)

Or, is it key in victimology to produce a "starting date?"

For example, as an American Indian, we often fight over 1492 vs. other dates of historical significance in this hemisphere.  It's, actually, rather grotesque...as nothing beyond a symbol of ongoing, personal repression for those that choose to do so...

[The Rabbi]

It is a matter of historical record, to those of us who value little things like facts over ideology, that the Final Solution (Endlossung) was proposed at Wannsee in 1942 or so.  Prior to that there were other aims and policies.

[Ezekiel]

Prior to that there were other aims and policies.

Seriously: you're implying the ideology did not exist until such time as it was made public in 1942 "or so," which is not a specific moment to begin with?  And you're still -- in previous postings -- attempting to promote this particular attempt at genocide as the standard bearer for all evils in magnitude, scope, success and design?

I cannot concur with such.  Others have indicated multiple examples negating such claim, of which I agree.

Horrific?  "Sure."  Worthy of unique or special acclaim based upon to whom it occurred or in what manner it was carried out?  "Not close."

[roo_ster]

Forgive me. I didn't read "The GLag Archipelago" by Solzhenitzin. I just read about it in the newspapers.

Given such ignorance, I have to ask: did the Soviets have camps with trains that regularly delivered prisoners? Did these camps have special equipment to move these prisoners quickly from the train cars to the showers to the gas chambers and then to the crematoriums?

I'm not trying to be a wise-ass by asking. I'm just trying to find out if there has ever been such a mechanized and industrial effort to wipe out an entire race and religion in prior history.

As others have pointed out, if not for the efforts and expenditures of men and materials devoted to "The Final Solution," Nazi Germany might well have prevailed.

Also, why did certain members of Hitler's inner circle get a pass, despite their having some Jewish heritage in their backgrounds? (Easy enough to answer).

One thing folks miss is that communism, naziism, & Italian facism had a perverted feedback loop working the whole time.

Things like, Mussolini was a marxist before he started on his facist path.  He did not think he could attain power under the banner of an international ideology, but nationalistic authoritarianism...

Hitler looked to Mussolini as an example to emulate before Hitler had assumed power.

Hitler & Stalin played atrocity tennis.  One would do somehting vile & the other would then see the possibility of doing it and follow suit.  One instance that stands out was Hitler's purging the Nazi Party, "Night of the Long Knives" I think it is called.  Up to that point, there were two groups in the NP that competed against each other for ultimate power.  Hitler had his folks & the SS, while the other guy had his SA troopers.  Hitler used violence to end all vestiges of democratic participation within the party & set up as absolute dictator of party & state.  Stalin saw this example & did the same the next year in the commie party.  The liquidation of troublesome minorities occured in a similar fashion. 

----------

Both Hitler & Stalin held power by means of terror.  The Nazi terror could be attenuated by the Germans to some extent by their own actions: keeping mum, following the NP line, etc.  There were some rules, however twiste d& evil.  The Soviet terror was much more a shotgun deal.  Apparachiks had quotas to fill & they would knock on doors to haul off random folk if they could not find enough folks who mouthed dissent or committed some infraction.

---------

No matter how much/little the Nazis dedicated to the killing of Jews, their fate was sealed the moment America got into the war.  Not to be arrogant, but America had the strongest industry in the world and was unassailable by her enemies.  We could (and did) equip nearly the entirety of the allied effort.  The Russians transported theor troops and collected their harvests with American trucks.  The Free French rode in to Paris in Sherman tanks (as did many Brits).  The list goes on....  America was also mighty pissed at Pearl Harbor.  Hitler declaring war on the USA was met with, "Take a number, kraut-boy, we'll get to you soon enough."

[richyoung]

Are you on something?  Or are you totally ignorant of the history here?  There was no Final Solution in 1937 or 1938.  Or 1940 for that matter, which is when my father in law escaped Hamburg.  The Final Solution didnt start until 1942 when Germany was already at war. 

Oh, really?  Lets see what a few sources other than me and thee have to say about the (Big "H") Holocaust, which is, after all, what we are talking about, right?
  Wiki sez:

Many scholars date the beginning of the Holocaust itself to the anti-Jewish riots of the Night of Broken Glass ("Kristallnacht") of November 9, 1938, in which Jews were attacked and Jewish property was vandalized across Germany. Approximately 100 Jews were killed, and another 30,000 sent to concentration camps, while over 7,000 Jewish shops and 1,574 synagogues (almost every synagogue in Germany) were damaged or destroyed. Similar events took place in Vienna at the same time.

The Jewish Virtual Library sez:

The Holocaust (also called Shoah in Hebrew) refers to the period from January 30, 1933, when Adolf Hitler became chancellor of Germany, to May 8, 1945 (V­E Day), when the war in Europe ended.

Just who, other than you, limits it to WWII?

Stalin's purges happened long before he contemplated getting into war.

Wrong again.  Germany and Russai had been on a collision course since the Nazi ascendency in 1933 - and both parties knew it.  They agreed to a temporary truce to divy up Poland and attempt to settle the Finnish question.  The decimation of the Soviet military leadership may have prompted Hitler to violate the nonagression pact earlier than he originally planned.

He had even signed a peace accord with Germany.

An accord neither party intended tohonor.
]

[richyoung]

Forgive me. I didn't read "The GLag Archipelago" by Solzhenitzin. I just read about it in the newspapers.

Given such ignorance, I have to ask: did the Soviets have camps with trains that regularly delivered prisoners?

In many cases, yes.

Did these camps have special equipment to move these prisoners quickly from the train cars to the showers to the gas chambers and then to the crematoriums?

Oh heck NO.  The "prisoner" was not to be allowed to die until he had "paid for his treason" by laying railroad track, harvesting lumber, quarrying uranium, or whatever.  No need for gas chambers when over-work, malnutrition, exposure, and lack of medical care will do the job for free.  No need for cremetoriums when you can add burying the dead to the work quota of the yet-living prisoners.
]

[CAnnoneer]

Monkeyleg, I strongly encourage you to read the book. Richyoung and I can give you glimpses of the gigantic repressive machine, a prisoner slave state within the socialist state, but a reading will give you the full perspective. Next to the stalinist machine, Himmler's and Mueller's minions were a bunch of foppish sophomoric choirboys.

The book certainly should be a required reading for every American highschooler as a form of anti-communist immunization.

[CAnnoneer]

The Europeans have always hated Cosmoline, and probably always will, especially for writing unfunded and overgeneralizing posts. 
There, I fixed it for you.

Sorry, dude, Cosmoline is right about the endemic presence of anti-semitism in Europe, although I can see how France can be an exception in some ways. Still, I don't think anti-semitism always trumps nationalistic resentment or old scores.

[The Rabbi]

Prior to that there were other aims and policies.

Seriously: you're implying the ideology did not exist until such time as it was made public in 1942 "or so," which is not a specific moment to begin with?  And you're still -- in previous postings -- attempting to promote this particular attempt at genocide as the standard bearer for all evils in magnitude, scope, success and design?

I cannot concur with such.  Others have indicated multiple examples negating such claim, of which I agree.

Horrific?  "Sure."  Worthy of unique or special acclaim based upon to whom it occurred or in what manner it was carried out?  "Not close."

I am not implying any such thing.  I am stating historical fact that extermination of European Jewry was not an aim of the Nazis prior to 1942 and the Wannsee Conference.
The rest of your post reads like gibberish to me.  I can't make heads or tails out of it.

[Art Eatman]

I imagine that the first years of sequestration of Jews and "other undesirables" into concentration camps and work camps was reasonably profitable for the Nazi regime.  They got the property and the slave labor.  The people of the camps began to be a burden, I'd bet, as the Nazis looked at issues like supplies of food and fuel.  And, as you starve people down, their ability to do useful work declines.

"What to do?  What to do?" 

"Here is my final solution..."

Art