Author Topic: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?  (Read 60185 times)

The Rabbi

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Re: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #225 on: March 08, 2007, 03:49:56 PM »
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The Wannsee Conference was a meeting of senior officials of the Nazi German regime, held in the Berlin suburb of Wannsee on January 20, 1942. The purpose of the conference was to inform senior Nazis and senior Governmental administrators of plans for the "Final solution to the Jewish question" - the killing of all the 11 million Jews of Europe, a process now known as the Holocaust.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference
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slzy

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Re: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #226 on: March 08, 2007, 05:38:03 PM »
the einsatzgruppen immediately started the slaughter of jews as the nazis moved east. slave masters such as sauckel and speer wanted to stop the slaughter for the slave labor. past the parades,the third reich was'nt very well thought out.i admit i have not read all posts. has wagner been brought up yet? wiki also has a good article on the einsatzgruppen,documenting murder in poland in '39.

Laurent du Var

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Re: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #227 on: March 11, 2007, 07:29:05 AM »
I imagine that the first years of sequestration of Jews and "other undesirables" into concentration camps and work camps was reasonably profitable for the Nazi regime.  They got the property and the slave labor.  The people of the camps began to be a burden, I'd bet, as the Nazis looked at issues like supplies of food and fuel.  And, as you starve people down, their ability to do useful work declines.

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Art

"
I am not implying any such thing.  I am stating historical fact that extermination of European Jewry was not an aim of the Nazis prior to 1942 and the Wannsee Conference.  "



Sorry do dig this old monster of an ugly  thread up but I just wanted to
tell about the two theories about the holocaust known to me:


The first which Art has described would be:  Functionalist - meaning a situation which went from bad to worse, imprisonment, forced labor and then the final solution.
 
The second would be: Intentionalist - meaning Hitler has planned it all along.

The Wannsee conference seemed to be not  a question of the if but the how and it has to be mentionned that it took place only after Hitler and the leading Nazis recognized that they would lose the war which in my opinion leans more to the functionalist theory.

There was antisemitism in Germany like anywhere else, but it did not lead to the Holocaust, that was Hitlers doing and the real crime of the Germans and later the Austrians, the French, the Polish, the Hungarian, the Swiss, the Italians etc. was to let it happen.


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slzy

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Re: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #228 on: March 11, 2007, 08:15:57 AM »
babi yar was sept.29-30 1941 with over 33,000 shot,way before wansee. so i am going with the "planned all along side". national socialists started realizing how large the task was. those most catholic monarchs,ferdinand and isabella,most of their auto de fe victims were jewish conversos ,fwiw.

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #229 on: March 11, 2007, 10:09:27 AM »
babi yar was sept.29-30 1941 with over 33,000 shot,way before wansee. so i am going with the "planned all along side". national socialists started realizing how large the task was. those most catholic monarchs,ferdinand and isabella,most of their auto de fe victims were jewish conversos ,fwiw.

side point - The Reconquista of Spain from the Saracens is hardly a parallel historical or situational context to Nazi expansionism.  It had much different political and religious goals at every point in time.
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slzy

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Re: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #230 on: March 12, 2007, 11:38:33 AM »
did'nt the reconquista start centuries before the inquisition?

De Selby

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Re: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #231 on: March 12, 2007, 11:42:11 AM »
Interesting turn to the reconquista.

Different can of worms, but it was in many ways the foundation of the race-based anti-semitism that drove Nazi culture. 

1492....the year the Spanish "liberated" America and also expelled all Jews from Spain with threats of death.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

The Rabbi

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Re: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #232 on: March 12, 2007, 11:43:30 AM »
They also expelled the Moors.

No one expected the Spanish Inquisition....
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #233 on: March 12, 2007, 11:48:28 AM »
Interesting turn to the reconquista.

Different can of worms, but it was in many ways the foundation of the race-based anti-semitism that drove Nazi culture. 

1492....the year the Spanish "liberated" America and also expelled all Jews from Spain with threats of death.

The foundation in the sense that they were trying to drive the Moors and, ancilliarily, all other non-native religions (Jews) out of Spain.  It wasn't primarily "aimed" at the Jews, it was aimed at removing foreign invaders.

And in 1492 the Spanish had just gotten to the New World, they wouldn't destroy the brutal theocracies of the Mexicas and Maya, with the help of those tyrants subject tribes for another 30-40 years.
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De Selby

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Re: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #234 on: March 12, 2007, 12:07:19 PM »
carebear,

Well, there certainly was a drive to push out all non-natives, there wasn't by any means only a general push that happened to include Jews.  http://www.sephardicstudies.org/decree.html
Quote
And since we are informed that neither that step nor the passing of sentence [of condemnation] against the said Jews who have been most guilty of the said crimes and delicts against our holy Catholic faith have been sufficient as a complete remedy to obviate and correct so great an opprobrium and offense to the faith and the Christian religion, because every day it is found and appears that the said Jews increase in continuing their evil and wicked purpose wherever they live and congregate, and so that there will not be any place where they further offend our holy faith, and corrupt those whom God has until now most desired to preserve, as well as those who had fallen but amended and returned to Holy Mother Church, the which according to the weakness of our humanity and by diabolical astuteness and suggestion that continually wages war against us may easily occur unless the principal cause of it be removed, which is to banish the said Jews from our kingdoms. Because whenever any grave and detestable crime is committed by members of any organization or corporation, it is reasonable that such an organization or corporation should be dissolved and annihilated and that the lesser members as well as tile greater and everyone for the others be punished, and that those who perturb the good and honest life of cities and towns and by contagion can injure others should be expelled from those places and even if for lighter causes, that may be injurious to the Republic, how Much more for those greater and most dangerous and most contagious crimes such as this.

I think they definitely had a special hatred for Jews.

And that attitude certainly wasn't lost when they did get on to conquering Mexico and South America...those who survived certainly were freed from ritual human sacrifice, but not from virtual slavery.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #235 on: March 12, 2007, 01:10:24 PM »
I think we're splitting hairs and not disagreeing too much.  Which is nice.

The Reconquista arguably began in, what, 800-something and as a goal originally almost solely aimed at driving out the Moors.  The Jews were more-or-less lumped in.  That decree hit right after the last Muslim ruler surrendered and was putting the capstone on the worst of the reactionary impulses, which, as the Rabbi points out, removed a key economic link from the Kingdom.

And yes, the Central and South Americans would have been better off trading their domestic tyrants for almost any other European ones. (given that such a trade was pretty much inevitable)
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MechAg94

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Re: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #236 on: March 12, 2007, 04:50:50 PM »
Considering the Inquisition seized all the assets of the people imprisoned, I can see where they thought Jews were a good target.  Not sure about before all that.  I thought I read that Ferdinand had Jewish advisers up until that time.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #237 on: March 12, 2007, 06:13:55 PM »
I thought I read that Ferdinand had Jewish advisers up until that time.

You mean Jewish masters.  Obviously, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, 9/11 and other "anti-Jewish" atrocities were in fact planned by Zionist elements including Mossad, which warned most of the Jews to escape Spain, the Reich and the Twin Towers before-hand.  Then there was Mossad secret agent Cristobal Colon, who, as everybody shoud know by now, discovered the New World in order to bring the vast American gold supply under Spanish (therefore Zionist) control.  While they were at it, the Jews used the addictive properties of chocolate to further solidify their already considerable sway over the world.  This is the subtle, yet plain, message behind the film, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.  But nevermind these uncomfortable facts.  Put on a pot of hot chocolate and return to your slavery, blind Gentiles.   rolleyes

I would like to think LAK for contributing to my research for this thread.   cheesy
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #238 on: March 12, 2007, 06:19:04 PM »
Anyone up for a forum pool on when fistful has an unfortunate, yet strangely kosher, "accident"?

Wait, now we all know too much...  damn you fistful!
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The Rabbi

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Re: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #239 on: March 13, 2007, 04:19:12 AM »
Considering the Inquisition seized all the assets of the people imprisoned, I can see where they thought Jews were a good target.  Not sure about before all that.  I thought I read that Ferdinand had Jewish advisers up until that time.

Famously the Biblical commentator Don Isaac Abarbanel, who was chief finance minister, was given the choice to stay but courageously chose to remain with his people in exile.
Fistful, did anyone mention the connection between Putin and Israel??
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De Selby

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Re: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #240 on: March 13, 2007, 07:29:25 AM »
carebear,

I think we're on the same page with the origins of the situation in Spain.  I think what it represents in terms of its relationship to the Nazis is the beginning of viewing Judaism as a racial quality that cannot be changed, hence..they demanded conversion, and then when some converted, the converts were tortured and killed on suspicion of not being "real" Christians.  Maybe there's some parallel here to the Nazi practice of meticulous classification of "Jewish blood".
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Just how many Jews were really murdered by Hitler and associates?
« Reply #241 on: March 13, 2007, 07:45:23 AM »
carebear,

I think we're on the same page with the origins of the situation in Spain.  I think what it represents in terms of its relationship to the Nazis is the beginning of viewing Judaism as a racial quality that cannot be changed, hence..they demanded conversion, and then when some converted, the converts were tortured and killed on suspicion of not being "real" Christians.  Maybe there's some parallel here to the Nazi practice of meticulous classification of "Jewish blood".

OK, I get it now.  That's a good point.
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