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Author Topic: George Zimmerman Trial  (Read 139001 times)
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« Reply #125 on: June 29, 2013, 10:34:14 PM »

Eh, I'm a man and I've never been in a real fisticuffs fight in my life and the vast majority of men I know haven't either. So I'm not really sure this is something you can just broadly say that male jury members would "know what it's like" where females wouldn't.

I see where you're coming from. I haven't been in any real fights, either. Still, men are more likely to learn about fighting indirectly, by watching MMA or reading about martial arts, or the "It happened to me" articles in gun magazines. (Not that those are perfectly reliable sources.)

On the other hand, I would guess there are more women than men in the medical field, so they could be more likely to be familiar with the effects of blows to the face and noggin.

Also, women might actually be more likely to think of a punch to the face as particularly harmful, where a lot of men would think it was just something to be shrugged off. Be a man, etc. We watch more action flicks, after all.
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« Reply #126 on: June 30, 2013, 03:25:14 AM »


I like how you automatically assume that I somehow support Zimmerman' s choice of following an unknown person in the dark on foot, and go on the attack to change the topic.
You're full of *expletive deleted*, and your law degree gives you an over inflated sense of the value of your opinion. 
Zimmerman is an idiot.  But no reasonable person stops and attacks someone who is following them. 

In retrospect those comments are a bit personal.  My apologies.
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« Reply #127 on: June 30, 2013, 04:07:04 AM »

I like how DS and other keep mentioning the whole "why did they pursue charges/ why wasn't there a syg hearing" angle as "proof"

First of all, they know a SYG hearing would have failed because this is a politically motivated shitshow

Second, the cops and DA weren't going to charge him, as I recall, until the usual suspects started screaming for blood
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« Reply #128 on: June 30, 2013, 07:10:27 AM »

I like how DS and other keep mentioning the whole "why did they pursue charges/ why wasn't there a syg hearing" angle as "proof"

First of all, they know a SYG hearing would have failed because this is a politically motivated shitshow

Second, the cops and DA weren't going to charge him, as I recall, until the usual suspects started screaming for blood

Absolutely, 100% true. He was going to be set free until the racism charges started flying all across the airwaves.
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« Reply #129 on: June 30, 2013, 07:49:52 AM »

On the other hand, I would guess there are more women than men in the medical field, so they could be more likely to be familiar with the effects of blows to the face and noggin.

Also, women might actually be more likely to think of a punch to the face as particularly harmful, where a lot of men would think it was just something to be shrugged off. Be a man, etc. We watch more action flicks, after all.

From my paramedic days, I can assure you that a blow to the head from any impact source is not to be taken lightly.  I have seen people killed or worse, significantly neurologically impaired from a single impact, be it by fist, club, crashing a bike or motorcycle, or falling down and striking the head.  We just recently had a murder case filed against a 24 year old man who robbed an 85 year old, causing him to fall down and strike his head.  The elderly gentleman lingered for a couple of months in the neuro ICU before he expired.  Between our recent wars and the NFL, we are learning a lot about traumatic brain injury and the impacts it can have.
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« Reply #130 on: June 30, 2013, 08:07:29 AM »

From my paramedic days, I can assure you that a blow to the head from any impact source is not to be taken lightly.  I have seen people killed or worse, significantly neurologically impaired from a single impact, be it by fist, club, crashing a bike or motorcycle, or falling down and striking the head.  We just recently had a murder case filed against a 24 year old man who robbed an 85 year old, causing him to fall down and strike his head.  The elderly gentleman lingered for a couple of months in the neuro ICU before he expired.  Between our recent wars and the NFL, we are learning a lot about traumatic brain injury and the impacts it can have.

Absolutely. Where did we come to the notion that a healthy human male isn't capable of incapacitating/killing another with his hands? Or that a handgun is a force field? If the facts are as presented, Zimmerman is lucky to be alive, possibly due to Martin's inexperience.
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« Reply #131 on: June 30, 2013, 08:17:24 AM »

But they could be educated.
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« Reply #132 on: June 30, 2013, 08:22:15 AM »

Where did we come to the notion that a healthy human male isn't capable of incapacitating/killing another with his hands? Or that a handgun is a force field?

I'm not sure where this notion comes from either. There are frequent enough news stories of it happening, you'd think people would think differently. A example that happened here near me a couple months ago:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/05/us/utah-soccer-death

A single punch to the head was all it took.
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« Reply #133 on: June 30, 2013, 08:40:38 AM »

Wow.

Just wow.

OK, first of all, I don't think Zimmerman and Martian were just having some hearty male fistcuffs in a back ally.
I think Martian was beating Zimmerman. It may have started out due to some masculine bravdo of the stupid tyoe, but based on the photo's of Zimmerman I've seen it escalated to the point of one human being giving another human being a beating that would result in serious injury, if not death, if it didn't get stopped.

My concern with an all female jury is simply that the jururs are not the broad example of Zimmermans American peers that it should be. If bias was something to be concerned with, it would be the continued representation of Martian as the innocent little schoolboy, which would possibly affect the female jury in there capacity as mothers or future mothers.

To be honest, the concept that getting overpowered and beaten (which is what happened, not this hearty masculine barfight of which you speak) is likely to be more effective among a female jury to get them to take Zimmermans side.
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« Reply #134 on: June 30, 2013, 08:52:18 AM »

While channel surfing, I heard some talking heads on one of the networks discussing whether Zimmerman's actual injuries justified shooting the guy on top of him who was administering the "ground-and-pound."

I wanted to ask them how much of a beating they would be willing to absorb before shooting their assailant.  Face Palm!
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« Reply #135 on: June 30, 2013, 09:14:40 AM »

I'm not sure where this notion comes from either. There are frequent enough news stories of it happening, you'd think people would think differently. A example that happened here near me a couple months ago:

A single punch to the head was all it took.

One of the nephews of Hizzoner "Baby Dick" Daley was in a bit of hot water (or not but should have been, I  may misrecollect by now) for striking a man outside a bar who died from that.
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« Reply #136 on: June 30, 2013, 10:15:13 AM »

Depends on the woman. 

Typical bowhead or hipster chick?  Relatively clue-free.  Trauma nurse? Understands blows to the cranium are no joke.

I do not know what sort of gals are he jurors.
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« Reply #137 on: June 30, 2013, 10:22:54 AM »

Absolutely. Where did we come to the notion that a healthy human male isn't capable of incapacitating/killing another with his hands? Or that a handgun is a force field? If the facts are as presented, Zimmerman is lucky to be alive, possibly due to Martin's inexperience.

Movies, for one  rolleyes

After taking a potentially fatal blow, the good guy gets up and beats his opponent, and then goes on the save the chick.
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« Reply #138 on: June 30, 2013, 11:55:30 AM »

Movies, for one  rolleyes

After taking a potentially fatal blow, the good guy gets up and beats his opponent, and then goes on the save the chick.

IRL, good guy takes the hit to the melon, falls down with a concussion, and bad guy & his buddies kick him to death in the middle of the street.

Didn't that happen to an actual honors student in a black neighborhood of Chicago?  Gang fight, dude tries to go around.  Sucker punched & falls like a poleaxed ox, and the other feral "urban youths" beat him to death.
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« Reply #139 on: June 30, 2013, 12:00:39 PM »

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http://www.theroot.com/buzz/trayvon-martins-stepmom-zimmerman-didnt-profile-him-because-he-was-black?wpisrc=root_more_news
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« Reply #140 on: June 30, 2013, 12:45:52 PM »

Eh, I'm a man and I've never been in a real fisticuffs fight in my life and the vast majority of men I know haven't either. So I'm not really sure this is something you can just broadly say that male jury members would "know what it's like" where females wouldn't.

I don't think I had an above average rough youth. But I guess that is how solipsistic bias works.

Anyway, I'm not trying to say that every man, or most men, gets into a life and death unarmed fight. But just that we are more in tune to that level of combat due to nature and the effects of our environment (everything from rough housing to sports).
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« Reply #141 on: June 30, 2013, 02:20:02 PM »

I don't think I had an above average rough youth. But I guess that is how solipsistic bias works.

Anyway, I'm not trying to say that every man, or most men, gets into a life and death unarmed fight. But just that we are more in tune to that level of combat due to nature and the effects of our environment (everything from rough housing to sports).

And I'm pointing out that your overall conclusion based on that is wrong.
Woman get a diffrent perspective, but are not ignorant of the effects of violent physical force.
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« Reply #142 on: June 30, 2013, 03:10:34 PM »

One thing I was taught real early when I was a prosecutor, you can never count on what a jury will do.  That is why the best way to avoid being convicted is to avaoid being tried.  I believe that if Zimmerman stays with his car, we don't have a trial to discuss.

As to why the DA is trying this case, he is responding to public opinion.  He is an elected official after all.
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« Reply #143 on: June 30, 2013, 03:43:52 PM »

One thing I was taught real early when I was a prosecutor, you can never count on what a jury will do.  That is why the best way to avoid being convicted is to avaoid being tried.  I believe that if Zimmerman stays with his car, we don't have a trial to discuss.

As to why the DA is trying this case, he is responding to public opinion.  He is an elected official after all.

I think that is something we do all actually agree on.
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« Reply #144 on: June 30, 2013, 04:25:52 PM »

And neighborhoods go to heck ...   sad
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« Reply #145 on: June 30, 2013, 04:56:58 PM »

I think that is something we do all actually agree on.

I certainly do.  If that were me here in Cali....... Well, you wouldn't be seeing me again for a looooooong time, if ever.
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« Reply #146 on: June 30, 2013, 04:58:04 PM »

There's a limit to what you should be doing.  Doing something that might just cause the doper you're concerned about to jump you is obviously not wise.
It's a pity the cops weren't a bit swifter on the uptake around there, given how that area had been repeatedly hit.
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« Reply #147 on: June 30, 2013, 05:36:31 PM »

There's a limit to what you should be doing.  Doing something that might just cause the doper you're concerned about to jump you is obviously not wise.

I don't know that anyone would have expected that before this incident.  undecided

Z didn't cause M to attack him.  The fact that he did pretty much confirms all of Z's suspicions.



Quote
It's a pity the cops weren't a bit swifter on the uptake around there, given how that area had been repeatedly hit.

What's the profit in that?

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« Reply #148 on: June 30, 2013, 05:55:16 PM »

I don't know that anyone would have expected that before this incident.  undecided


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Quote
Z didn't cause M to attack him.  The fact that he did pretty much confirms all of Z's suspicions.


That depends on your point of view, doesn't it? Martin was apparently walking home when Zimmerman started following him.  Had he been attempting to break into a car, house, mailbox, or a garage, I'd say yeah, it would.  But walking and acting weird? I'd call the cops, but that'd be it.  Call me chicken, but the price of possibly escalating a situation that didn't begin in violence is higher than I want to pay.

Quote
What's the profit in that?



In what, having the cops do their damned jobs?
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« Reply #149 on: June 30, 2013, 06:23:51 PM »

That depends on your point of view, doesn't it? Martin was apparently walking home when Zimmerman started following him.  Had he been attempting to break into a car, house, mailbox, or a garage, I'd say yeah, it would.  But walking and acting weird? I'd call the cops, but that'd be it.  Call me chicken, but the price of possibly escalating a situation that didn't begin in violence is higher than I want to pay.
He did call the police.  Then (according to his story and 911 transcript, anyway) he got out of the car to look for a street sign and house numbers to better direct them.  Possibly he wanted to see if he could spot the suspicious dude again.  More than that requires a making assumptions not based in evidence at hand.  Either way, it turned out to be a very bad decision, but not something I would have expected to lead to conflict, nor would I consider either act an escalation in and of itself.  If he actually was yelling "COME ON OUT YOU DIRTY HOODIE-WEARING THUG!" or somehow caught Travon and grabbed him from behind or something - okay, that's escalation.  Getting out of his car after Martin had already disappeared down a path?  Not so much.

In hindsight we can easily spot times and places he could have done something better that would have completely eliminated the conflict, but assuming Zimmerman is telling something even remotely close to the truth, at the time I don't see that he had any reason to assume his actions would lead to any sort of conflict whatsoever, much less a shooting.
In what, having the cops do their damned jobs?
Out of curiosity, what do you think that entails?  If a neighborhood has a number of break-ins, what should the police response look like?
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