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Author Topic: George Zimmerman Trial  (Read 138990 times)
RoadKingLarry
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« Reply #250 on: July 07, 2013, 09:14:07 PM »

I'm still betting he'll be convicted. While GZ is not the brightest crayon in the box it's my opinion that the shooting was justifiable given what facts we know. Any other verdict will result in race riots so they must convict.
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« Reply #251 on: July 07, 2013, 09:18:23 PM »

I'm still betting he'll be convicted. While GZ is not the brightest crayon in the box it's my opinion that the shooting was justifiable given what facts we know. Any other verdict will result in race riots so they must convict.
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But it's a jury trial, and the riots won't be in their neighborhoods.  It's not like they are up for reelection.  rolleyes
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« Reply #252 on: July 07, 2013, 09:28:20 PM »

I'm still betting he'll be convicted. While GZ is not the brightest crayon in the box it's my opinion that the shooting was justifiable given what facts we know. Any other verdict will result in race riots so they must convict.
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I don't know...

Some have raised the point that the all women jury can be more sensitive to lies and misrepresentation, and the stereotypical "claws come out" especially when they see it or feel it coming from other women. Most of whom were women on the stand who had the worst potential issues with truthfulness during the prosecution's case.

Not saying it is, or it isn't... but I can certainly see it as being possible.

And Mark O'Mara had several more challenges available to him in the voir dire portion of the trial. He must have some theory as to the jury makeup he was happy with.

And for every argument someone makes that the women will be overly empathetic to the "child" that was killed, they could just as easily be swayed by the idea of a tall black male in a hoodie cutting through residential yards on a rainy day, and Zimmerman, tactically right or wrong in some of the particulars, was "just trying to look out for the community".

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« Reply #253 on: July 08, 2013, 03:07:06 AM »


And for every argument someone makes that the women will be overly empathetic to the "child" that was killed, they could just as easily be swayed by the idea of a tall black male in a hoodie cutting through residential yards on a rainy day, and Zimmerman, tactically right or wrong in some of the particulars, was "just trying to look out for the community".


Yep.  The blessing and curse of a jury trial.  You can truly never predict what point, what little thing, is going to sway the mind of a juror one way or the other.  I once prosecuted a burglary case.  Woman in her home office in the basement comes upstairs to find a man carrying her television.  He carries it to the car and drives off.  She watches, and as she's calling 911, she wrote the plate number on her wall.  Police trace the plate, find the car at the guy's house.  One juror voted not guilty, because the television wasn't at that home, and there was no DNA at the victim's home. Hung jury.  Second trial, same evidence.  Guilty verdictin 20 minutes.
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Chester32141
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« Reply #254 on: July 08, 2013, 04:49:56 AM »

My apologies if this has been posted elsewhere ...  Wink

Meet the Zimmerman trial jurors ... http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/06/meet-the-zimmerman-trial-jurors/
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« Reply #255 on: July 08, 2013, 10:18:56 AM »

Yep.  The blessing and curse of a jury trial.  You can truly never predict what point, what little thing, is going to sway the mind of a juror one way or the other.  I once prosecuted a burglary case.  Woman in her home office in the basement comes upstairs to find a man carrying her television.  He carries it to the car and drives off.  She watches, and as she's calling 911, she wrote the plate number on her wall.  Police trace the plate, find the car at the guy's house.  One juror voted not guilty, because the television wasn't at that home, and there was no DNA at the victim's home. Hung jury.  Second trial, same evidence.  Guilty verdictin 20 minutes.

Ahhh, the CSI effect.   People watch too many cop shows (especially CSI:wherever) and think that SCIENCE!!! has the answers to every crime.
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« Reply #256 on: July 08, 2013, 04:28:20 PM »

My apologies if this has been posted elsewhere ...  Wink

Meet the Zimmerman trial jurors ... http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/06/meet-the-zimmerman-trial-jurors/

Granted, it probably plays just as well into being "low information voters", as it does "rugged individualist", but I did find the near universal disdain for the MSM in the jury selection refreshing.
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« Reply #257 on: July 08, 2013, 05:21:40 PM »

Ahhh, the CSI effect.   People watch too many cop shows (especially CSI:wherever) and think that SCIENCE!!! has the answers to every crime.

Yep.  Every crime has DNA and a confession. Right.

Found out after the factbthat the woman had moved into county from Columbus, and she'd voted "not guilty" three times in previous jury service, even with video and a confession.  One of those jurors...
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« Reply #258 on: July 08, 2013, 07:33:35 PM »

Interesting how this isn't very big news:

http://billingsgazette.com/news/national/murder-trial-of-federal-agent-begins-in-hawaii/article_07c4cd08-41e5-5aae-a06d-6cb7f19dc02c.html

First time that I've heard of it.
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« Reply #259 on: July 08, 2013, 08:02:48 PM »


Quote
The defense had hoped for a last-minute decision by the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on a request to move the case from state court to federal court.

I'm surprised that didn't work for them.  It worked for Lon Horiuchi.  Transfer to federal court, dismiss is, then all the feds have a big laugh at our expense.
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« Reply #260 on: July 09, 2013, 11:35:56 AM »

I dunno, Zimmerman's mom and the other women, one squarely in the jury's demographic, who testified to his character scream identification look a lot more like the jury than Martin's mom and Dee Dee.  Zimmerman's wintnesses were badgered and sworn at to by the prosecution and replied with calm dignity.  That can't hurt Zimmerman by association.
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« Reply #261 on: July 09, 2013, 12:31:10 PM »

another day, and I do believe the prosecutions case fell that much more apart.

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« Reply #262 on: July 09, 2013, 12:55:21 PM »

after watching the prosecutions witnesses, i'm surprised the defense called anyone.
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« Reply #263 on: July 09, 2013, 01:36:20 PM »

after watching the prosecutions witnesses, i'm surprised the defense called anyone.

CSI effect.  People want to hear the forensics.  Seems they covered that quite well, too, what with the shirt's distance from Martin's chest and all.
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« Reply #264 on: July 09, 2013, 01:40:46 PM »

@ Geronimo...You have to put on a casemfor a self-defense claim.  The burden is on then defense to prove the homicide was justified.

That said, it doesn't seem like they had to work too hard.

Here's my take on things.  I still have concerns that a juror could hang up on Zimmerman following Martin.  That said, I think that as an outsider looking at the evidence presented,  I think there's a good chance thatt the jury will acquit.
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« Reply #265 on: July 09, 2013, 02:36:55 PM »

@ Geronimo...You have to put on a casemfor a self-defense claim.  The burden is on then defense to prove the homicide was justified.
[\quote]

As an aside, the bolded part is not true and in FL. Once he claimed SD the burden is on the state to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it wasn't SD.

I worry a little that this jury will remember the death threats against Casey Anthony's jury and convict from fear. I still think it likely that he will be aquitted
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« Reply #266 on: July 09, 2013, 05:31:22 PM »

@Dogmush, the presumption you speak of applies only to a homeowner who kills an intruder in his/her own home.  See section 776.013, Florida's version of the Castle Doctrine.  I'd love to claim I was that good with laws in all states, but I called a buddy who was a prosecutor in Florida.
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« Reply #267 on: July 10, 2013, 03:10:30 AM »

kinda seems weird that the burden of proof is on the prosecutions side to convict someone of murder, and on the defendents side when it's self-defense.  i guess part of that must stem from gz's statement that he did kill martin.  fortunatly there seem to be enough witnesses, who saw/heard what was going on, to back up zimmermans version of events.
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« Reply #268 on: July 10, 2013, 03:46:34 AM »

@Dogmush, the presumption you speak of applies only to a homeowner who kills an intruder in his/her own home.  See section 776.013, Florida's version of the Castle Doctrine.  I'd love to claim I was that good with laws in all states, but I called a buddy who was a prosecutor in Florida.

I'll defer to your friend. I got my info from a quote from the FLSC and I confess I didn't read the whole case.
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« Reply #269 on: July 10, 2013, 06:39:41 AM »

Just so everyone understands...self-defense is an affirmative defense, in Zimmerman's case it's to the murder charge.  Basically, how it works is that the state must still prove the homicide beyond a reasonable doubt.  The burden of proof then shifts to the defense to prove by a preponderance of the evidence that the homicide was done in self-defense.  If the jury finds the homicide was committed in self-defense, basically the rule it was justified, and acquit the defendant.

In reading over some of my last posts, there is one thing I didn't make clear.  Zimmerman's defense, and any self-defense argument, basically concedes the homicide occurred, though they believe it was justified (done in self-defense).  The defense does not concede the murder.  Big difference in those terms.  By conceding the homicide, they are saying "Yes, our guy killed that guy, but it was justified."  They do not concede the "murder," as that term by its very definition means an unwarranted taking of life, usually with some type of malice.

What dogmush pointed out above is that Florida has passed a law which says that, in your own home, and against an intruder (someone who is unlawfully in your home), any homicide is presumed to be done in self-defense.  The state must prove that it was not justified, which would be something very unusual.  The "stand your ground" law that everyone wants to bring up in the Zimmerman case doesn't change the burdens of proof, or that Zimmerman must prove he acted in self-defense.  It removes from the law of self-defense the burden of proving that you had no way of retreating from the danger.  Some jurisdictions require that a person "retreat to the wall" before using deadly force against an attacker.  In other words, you couldn't shoot back if there was any way to run from your attacker.  (Seems kind of dumb, huh?)  This is why I've believed from the beginning that the Zimmerman case has nothing to do with the "stand your ground" law.  What it has to do with is whether or not Zimmerman can convince the jury that his shot was fired in self-defense.  Did he reasonably believe that he needed to fire to protect himself from grievous bodily injury or death?  (Some states have also included reasonable belief that a person was going to be raped in this definition of self-defense.)

That all said, I think that this case has now become a circus of the law.  The state and defense are spending so much time now arguing about crap that is completely irrelevant to the facts of the shooting, and putting on a good show for the cameras, that any outcome is going to be problematic for us as armed citizens.  An acquittal may mean that a jury may expect us to put on evidence that our attacker was attempting to buy a gun, and bragging about other fights, and had THC in his system.  A conviction may mean that shooting may not be deemed a reasonable response to an "unarmed" beating, as I heard some idiot talking head say on CNN last night.  "You don't bring a gun to a fist fight" is just a stupid ting to say.  IMHO, a smart man brings a gun to any fight.

Rant off.
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« Reply #270 on: July 10, 2013, 06:47:25 AM »

Proving that Martin had THC in his system seems like something that would hurt Zimmerman's case.  Wink
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« Reply #271 on: July 10, 2013, 07:12:21 AM »

@ Geronimo...You have to put on a casemfor a self-defense claim.  The burden is on then defense to prove the homicide was justified.

Not blaming or doubting you. But it irks me whenever the burden of proof is not on the prosecution. Asset seizure is the same way. With asset seizure, you first have to prove standing and then prove you obtained the property legally. How this is Constitutional or legal, I have no bloody idea. It's outright theft, unless it is obtained under a warrant.
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« Reply #272 on: July 10, 2013, 07:17:09 AM »

Not blaming or doubting you. But it irks me whenever the burden of proof is not on the prosecution. Asset seizure is the same way. With asset seizure, you first have to prove standing and then prove you obtained the property legally. How this is Constitutional or legal, I have no bloody idea. It's outright theft, unless it is obtained under a warrant.

Ayup.  Also, that is hardly how it looks like LEOs are treated after a shooting.

And as to doings in the GZ trial, the defense is putting on witnesses that help the defense, unlike the novel approach taken by the prosecution (where they brouht out witnesses that helped the defense, too).
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« Reply #273 on: July 10, 2013, 10:47:23 AM »

Not blaming or doubting you. But it irks me whenever the burden of proof is not on the prosecution. Asset seizure is the same way. With asset seizure, you first have to prove standing and then prove you obtained the property legally. How this is Constitutional or legal, I have no bloody idea. It's outright theft, unless it is obtained under a warrant.

No offense taken at all.  I've always thought that asset forfeiture should be a part of the process done only after a guilty verdict.  Kind of like "Okay, Mr. Jones was convicted of Crimes X, Y, and Z.  The State has proven that the (list of items) were either tools used for committing those crimes, or the products of that criminal activity.  As such, those items are forfeit to the State."  i agree that this crap of seizing assets without criminal charges in many cases, much less convictions, just doesn't seem right.
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« Reply #274 on: July 10, 2013, 02:15:32 PM »

Agreed.  IIRC, part of the reasoning for taking the assets before trial was to prevent the suspect from using those assets to fund their defense.
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Put our backs to the north wind.
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