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Author Topic: George Zimmerman Trial  (Read 138989 times)
fistful
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« Reply #500 on: July 19, 2013, 04:00:36 AM »

Let's see, being expelled from school for infractions that should have got him a free squad car ride, facebook endorsement of drug use and irresponsible weapons ownership, and oh yeah, assault and battery on a creepy cracker. It was February, he was 200 miles from where he should have been attending school. Sounds like a young manreally on his way up in the world.

That's "cracka."  rolleyes
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« Reply #501 on: July 19, 2013, 04:11:32 AM »

Honor fights

What a joke

Now, I agree with your overall sentiment, but not this particular phrasing.

As Carberry has pointed out, we do have opportunities for honor fights. On the street in the middle of the night is not the place for it.

Further, I think AZRedHawk has a mistaken idea of the old west from the movies just as the anti-gunners do. However, even given his example, the reason such a fight like that can work is because there are witnesses there who both men can trust to prevent the fight from turning into a murder: should either pull a gun or a knife, the crowd would be expected to enforce the rules.

I think the idea of fights over honor is a bad idea because it necessarily favors the young over the old and the large over the small. Were we to have such a system in place, I'm fairly certain Fitz here would be free to insult me with impunity and were I to insult him back, he could challenge me to an "honor fight." At which point I could either demur and be called a coward or give him an opportunity to beat me. (Only to a point, of course, but any physical injury is no joke and permanent damage is sustained even in refereed fights. Sometimes even death.)

The sentiment is understandable though: there is something... mythical, I suppose...  to having to back up your word with your fists ("honor fights") or your life (duels). I'd prefer to live in a more civilized age.

Having said all that, I now must say: I completely support this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wptn5RE2I-k

Cut to about 1:30 or so for the point.

So what's my point? Not sure, except it is satisfying to see someone immediately get their just desserts. Note that this wasn't done in a back alley in the dark.
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« Reply #502 on: July 19, 2013, 04:44:01 AM »

I'd prefer to live in a more civilized age.

An elegant weapon, for a more civilized age
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« Reply #503 on: July 19, 2013, 04:46:04 AM »

She ain't part o no skool. She kant evinn reed.

Yet someone offered her a full scholarship after the Morgan interview.
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« Reply #504 on: July 19, 2013, 04:59:14 AM »

Now, I agree with your overall sentiment, but not this particular phrasing.

As Carberry has pointed out, we do have opportunities for honor fights. On the street in the middle of the night is not the place for it.

Further, I think AZRedHawk has a mistaken idea of the old west from the movies just as the anti-gunners do. However, even given his example, the reason such a fight like that can work is because there are witnesses there who both men can trust to prevent the fight from turning into a murder: should either pull a gun or a knife, the crowd would be expected to enforce the rules.

I think the idea of fights over honor is a bad idea because it necessarily favors the young over the old and the large over the small. Were we to have such a system in place, I'm fairly certain Fitz here would be free to insult me with impunity and were I to insult him back, he could challenge me to an "honor fight." At which point I could either demur and be called a coward or give him an opportunity to beat me. (Only to a point, of course, but any physical injury is no joke and permanent damage is sustained even in refereed fights. Sometimes even death.)

The sentiment is understandable though: there is something... mythical, I suppose...  to having to back up your word with your fists ("honor fights") or your life (duels). I'd prefer to live in a more civilized age.

Having said all that, I now must say: I completely support this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wptn5RE2I-k

Cut to about 1:30 or so for the point.

So what's my point? Not sure, except it is satisfying to see someone immediately get their just desserts. Note that this wasn't done in a back alley in the dark.

My point is, there's no reason to fight over *expletive deleted* like this, and if someone DOES physically assault me over something like this, or in Zimm's case, being concerned about his neighborhood, then they take their life into their own hands at that point. I'm not gonna get into a fist fight and risk serious injury. Beat me about the head and whatnot, I'm drawing and firing. Honor be damned
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« Reply #505 on: July 19, 2013, 05:51:13 AM »

My point is, there's no reason to fight over *expletive deleted* like this, and if someone DOES physically assault me over something like this, or in Zimm's case, being concerned about his neighborhood, then they take their life into their own hands at that point. I'm not gonna get into a fist fight and risk serious injury. Beat me about the head and whatnot, I'm drawing and firing. Honor be damned

I agree with Fitz on this.  Has anybody read The Ayoob Files in the latest American Handgunner?  If not it is an interesting read (starts on page 32).  The article deals with a case that Mas testified in for the defense and it happened in the same county as the NRA t-shirt kid.

From the banner of the article:

Situation: The big man has threatened to beat you to death, and you have reason to believe he's capable of doing it.  Now he shows up at your house, and begins to beat you...

Lesson:  Not everyone who violently attacks you will be a stereotypical criminal, and the justice system still has trouble recognizing your attacker doesn't need a weapon to kill you.

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« Reply #506 on: July 19, 2013, 06:09:11 AM »

...In this instance, and others, she apparently has a rather fluid interpretation of facts, truth, and what words actually mean.

This describes our post modernist USA.

Objective truth is a dead man walking.
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« Reply #507 on: July 19, 2013, 06:09:52 AM »

Honor fights

What a joke

I'll say this for you, Thornton, you fought a good fight.  My sister - your widow - could have done a lot worse.

cheesy


I'm not totally sure of Florida terminology, but white ranchers/homesteaders in Florida are sometimes self described as "crackers"  undecided
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« Reply #508 on: July 19, 2013, 06:14:28 AM »

I'll say this for you, Thornton, you fought a good fight.  My sister - your widow - could have done a lot worse.

cheesy


I'm not totally sure of Florida terminology, but white ranchers/homesteaders in Florida are sometimes self described as "crackers"  undecided

My favorite John Wayne movie.  Homeric!
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« Reply #509 on: July 19, 2013, 06:17:01 AM »

Now, I agree with your overall sentiment, but not this particular phrasing.

As Carberry has pointed out, we do have opportunities for honor fights. On the street in the middle of the night is not the place for it.

Further, I think AZRedHawk has a mistaken idea of the old west from the movies just as the anti-gunners do. However, even given his example, the reason such a fight like that can work is because there are witnesses there who both men can trust to prevent the fight from turning into a murder: should either pull a gun or a knife, the crowd would be expected to enforce the rules.

I think the idea of fights over honor is a bad idea because it necessarily favors the young over the old and the large over the small. Were we to have such a system in place, I'm fairly certain Fitz here would be free to insult me with impunity and were I to insult him back, he could challenge me to an "honor fight." At which point I could either demur and be called a coward or give him an opportunity to beat me. (Only to a point, of course, but any physical injury is no joke and permanent damage is sustained even in refereed fights. Sometimes even death.)

The sentiment is understandable though: there is something... mythical, I suppose...  to having to back up your word with your fists ("honor fights") or your life (duels). I'd prefer to live in a more civilized age.

Having said all that, I now must say: I completely support this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wptn5RE2I-k

Cut to about 1:30 or so for the point.

So what's my point? Not sure, except it is satisfying to see someone immediately get their just desserts. Note that this wasn't done in a back alley in the dark.

You're right, fights like that usually either have witnesses to keep it reasonably civil and the reason for the dispute is well known.  Also, the parties usually know each other already.

No, what I posted earlier ain't perfect.

And Fitz is right that Martin had absolutely no grounds to just jump Z out of the blue.  

Reflecting more on it, when you don't know if you're in the process of being pummeled to death or just in the process of losing a fight, because you don't know your aggressor, I can see the self defense argument and progression to pistol.
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« Reply #510 on: July 19, 2013, 06:20:27 AM »

You're right, fights like that usually either have witnesses to keep it reasonably civil and the reason for the dispute is well known.  Also, the parties usually know each other already.

No, what I posted earlier ain't perfect.

And Fitz is right that Martin had absolutely no grounds to just jump Z out of the blue.  

Reflecting more on it, when you don't know if you're in the process of being pummeled to death or just in the process of losing a fight, because you don't know your aggressor, I can see the self defense argument and progression to pistol.

Yeah. Which, in my mind, is anytime I'm fighting with anyone other than a good friend and fellow soldier. Been in some brawls with marines. Never felt the need to use deadly force.

Some random ahole who gets mad cuz I 'disrespect' him?

Yeah. Soon as I start losing, I'm firing. Because I know NOTHING about him and whether or not he will stop.
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« Reply #511 on: July 19, 2013, 07:04:08 AM »

Quote
Yeah. Which, in my mind, is anytime I'm fighting with anyone other than a good friend and fellow soldier. Been in some brawls with marines. Never felt the need to use deadly force.

Some random *expletive deleted* who gets mad cuz I 'disrespect' him?

Yeah. Soon as I start losing, I'm firing. Because I know NOTHING about him and whether or not he will stop.

I won't even go as far as 'losing' before ratcheting up the force continuum. I'm going to 'win' one way or another or die trying.
I have kids back home that i need to take care of and provided for. Losing my ability to do my job because of broken bones,  brain damage, or death because some randon jackass attacks me is an unacceptable outcome.
You being a 'big dude' like me, its probably crossed your mind that the only people who are going to attack you are going to be:
A: psychos
B: under the influence of an alternative pharmaceutical
C: Armed
and/or
D: in a large group

None of these catagories point to anything less than taking the appropriate response to 'stop' the attack by any means necessary.
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« Reply #512 on: July 19, 2013, 07:05:45 AM »

I won't even go as far as 'losing' before ratcheting up the force continuum. I'm going to 'win' one way or another or die trying.
I have kids back home that i need to take care of and provided for. Losing my ability to do my job because of broken bones,  brain damage, or death because some randon jackass attacks me is an unacceptable outcome.
You being a 'big dude' like me, its probably crossed your mind that the only people who are going to attack you are going to be:
A: psychos
B: under the influence of an alternative pharmaceutical
C: Armed
and/or
D: in a large group

None of these catagories point to anything less than taking the appropriate response to 'stop' the attack by any means necessary.

Yup. The psychological state of anyone who attacks me is immediately called into question
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« Reply #513 on: July 19, 2013, 07:14:31 AM »

I won't even go as far as 'losing' before ratcheting up the force continuum. I'm going to 'win' one way or another or die trying.
I have kids back home that i need to take care of and provided for. Losing my ability to do my job because of broken bones,  brain damage, or death because some randon jackass attacks me is an unacceptable outcome.

You being a 'big dude' like me, its probably crossed your mind that the only people who are going to attack you are going to be:
A: psychos
B: under the influence of an alternative pharmaceutical
C: Armed
and/or
D: in a large group

None of these catagories point to anything less than taking the appropriate response to 'stop' the attack by any means necessary.

Yep, got family & kids to support.  I work pretty damned hard to stay out of such stupid confrontations.  If someone works hard enough to get me where I can not avoid a violent confrontation, I am not going to play around.



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« Reply #514 on: July 19, 2013, 07:51:44 AM »

Yet someone offered her a full scholarship after the Morgan interview.

True.

And more proof that racism is alive and well in the U.S., and not being perpetuated by white people. The radio host, Tom Joyner, offered to pay her tuition at an HBCU, which is an acronym for "historically black colleges and universities." Can you imagine the outcry if someone were to offer Zimmerman a scholarship to a "historically white college or university"? We have an NAACP and a UNCF (United Negro College Fund). Why don't we have a NAAWP and a UWCF? We have the New Black Panthers ... why don't we have the New White Panthers?

Because that would be racist, of course. But it's NOT racist when black people voluntarily separate themselves based on race?
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« Reply #515 on: July 19, 2013, 08:31:29 AM »

Honor fight? Screw that. The last time I was in a fist fight was in high school. I'm now 55.

Got two bum knees. I don't fight. If I'm ever in a fight it will have brought to me. I'm ending it ASAP. Whether a pen, chair, computer monitor, knife or gun is used. And if possible before receiving the first punch.

Fist fight? I'm out on that crap.
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« Reply #516 on: July 19, 2013, 08:42:42 AM »

True.

And more proof that racism is alive and well in the U.S., and not being perpetuated by white people. The radio host, Tom Joyner, offered to pay her tuition at an HBCU, which is an acronym for "historically black colleges and universities." Can you imagine the outcry if someone were to offer Zimmerman a scholarship to a "historically white college or university"? We have an NAACP and a UNCF (United Negro College Fund). Why don't we have a NAAWP and a UWCF? We have the New Black Panthers ... why don't we have the New White Panthers?

Because that would be racist, of course. But it's NOT racist when black people voluntarily separate themselves based on race?

Yeah, it's not as if black people faced particular challenges due to racial discrimination, or anything.
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« Reply #517 on: July 19, 2013, 08:51:43 AM »

I'll say this for you, Thornton, you fought a good fight.  My sister - your widow - could have done a lot worse.

cheesy


I'm not totally sure of Florida terminology, but white ranchers/homesteaders in Florida are sometimes self described as "crackers"  undecided

Yes, the only state I've ever been to where a historical explanation of "Cracker" is offered up. Last time I saw such in southwest FL it was perhaps revisionist historied to have derived from the cracking of the whips that hte mule droving original settlers used.


On the notion of honorable fisticuffs, that derives from the same place in popular misremembrance as does "a jury of our peers." Hey, that phrase isn't in our legal system because we supposedly eliminated class.  rolleyes Back in the old days there may have been an "honorable" fight between two gentleman, but you can predict the result if one of these bluebloods was jumped by some serflike riff-raff. Or, honorable fights are impossible with a party devoid of honor.

Now I'm a larger than average individual, until of course you use the Fitz average, then I am puny mortal. I have the same problem, anyone who just attacks me has already overcome the psychological barrier of hey, that's a large guy! So, their judgement is suspect. And then when I get to court the sentiment is going to be that I was big, I should have defended myself without the mag dump. Well gee your honor, I have zero experience with hand to hand combat because most people leave me alone. I was much tougher as a 40lb undersized first grader, because then everyone wanted a shot at me.
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« Reply #518 on: July 19, 2013, 08:56:48 AM »

http://www.adn.com/2013/07/18/2979363/injured-man-found-unconscious.html

There is a pay thing pop-up but you can read around it.

Basically one punch knocked the 40 year old guy down and his head hit the concrete. He's still unconscious in critical condition, the 23 year old man who hit him is in jail on an assault charge with no bail.  Undoubtedly pending the guy's status improving or worsening.

Not a lot of reexamination of beliefs by the anti-Zimmerman crew in the comments even though it has been pointed out this result is fairly common.

As a good-sized 42 year old, even as a former Marine, I'm not trading punches with some overly aggro knucklehead, teen or geezer.  I won't start anything but I feel no moral impetus to "fight fair" if they use poor victim selection skills.
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« Reply #519 on: July 19, 2013, 08:58:34 AM »

Yeah, it's not as if black people faced particular challenges due to racial discrimination, or anything.

Many of the challenges they face are self-imposed, as a result of their inherent racism. The Civil War was more than 200 years ago, yet the blacks persist in thinking and referring to themselves as "blacks" or "black Americans" rather than as "Americans." They brag about not getting an education. A few years ago I parked at the fringe of a public housing complex to attend a meeting at a local university. On the way back to my car I was trailing three black teenage females. One of the three was laying out her life plan:

"Soon'z ah gets ta be 16 Ah'm gonna quit skool and start havin' babies."

Yes, young lady, that's quite a plan.

Take the lovely Ms. Jeantel. It doesn't take a college degree to be a receptionist, but it does usually require being moderately personable and being able to speak clearly and write notes about phone calls (although that last part is disappearing thanks to voicemail). Would you hire Ms. Jeantel to be the receptionist at your company? If not ... why not?

I rest my case.

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« Reply #520 on: July 19, 2013, 09:03:23 AM »

Quote
Basically one punch knocked the 40 year old guy down and his head hit the concrete. Unconscious in critical condition, the 23 year old man who hit him is in jail on an assault charge with no bail.  Undoubtedly pending the guy's status improving or worsening.

I see one of those just about every month in the newspaper, 1/2 the time the guy dies.
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« Reply #521 on: July 19, 2013, 09:07:53 AM »

You just rested MY case, by outlining why black people still have a need to help themselves, by means of private organizations focused on bettering the race (or improving the culture, to put it another way). Sadly, groups like the NAACP have gone way off the rails in that department. Still, there's a reason why minority groups band together to help one another in difficult circumstances. It isn't necessarily for the sinister ends you describe.
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« Reply #522 on: July 19, 2013, 09:08:34 AM »

The key letter in that acronym is "historically".  They aren't segregated anymore, anyone can apply to Morehouse and Howard. In the time frame of their founding pretty much any university that wasn't "historically" black was "historically" white in practice if not intent, the label is implicit.

Anyway, there are better things to criticize in the host's actions than him putting his money where his sentiments are.  Like why she deserves a free ride for being a -bad- witness for the prosecution.  

Most defendants are aware enough to moderate their speech and courtroom demeanor in front of a jury. Dee Dee held most of the crappy cards the prosecution had and she didn't even bother to do as much for her "friend" when she had months to prepare.
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« Reply #523 on: July 19, 2013, 09:29:16 AM »

Quote
In this instance, and others, she apparently has a rather fluid interpretation of facts, truth, and what words actually mean.

Or, more accurately:

Quote
In this instance, and others, she, and others, apparently has a rather fluid interpretation of facts, truth, and what words actually mean.
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« Reply #524 on: July 19, 2013, 09:45:20 AM »

For those who think Zimmerman shouldn't have profiled Martin for wearing a hoodie,

Everyone profiles.  It's called making judgments based on limited data.  Only one is omniscient, and I ain't him.  I don't know Hoodie Boy's name, his family, the sunday school his grandma took him to when he was 4, or anything else about him.  I que on things I do see, and make judgments based on personal experience and other information available.  Everyone does it, and it's not evil. 

Not doing it is dangerous.


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