Circuit Breakers

[Nick1911]

I'm getting ready to replace the 1970's pushmatic breaker box in my house.  I'll also be upgrading from 100A to 200A service.  I'm tired of not being able to run the TIG welder while the dryer is running. 

I went ahead and pulled a permit for it.  Now I'm working up my bill of materials.  My city is on the 2008 NEC code.

What brand and style of breakers and main panelboard should I use?  I see GE, Eaton [type BR and CH], Square D [Type Homeline and QO] commonly available around here.

My wire sizing chart shows 200A coming in should be fed by 4/0 Aluminum wire.  I see that the commonly stocked SER wire at the store is 4/0-4/0-2/0.  It's a question I'll ask the utility, but ...is this the norm for 200A service entrance wire?

I'll be putting in a new ground rod as well.  Any tips/tricks for getting an 8 foot copper clad rod in the ground without spending all day with a hammer on a ladder?

I'll be doing the work with power shut off to the house, as I don't have enough romex to put the new panel beside the old one.  Will probably run extension cord from neighbors house to run work lights and power tools.  Aside from the obvious electrical hazards, it seems that using a proper torque tool is one of more overlooked necessities.  Any general advice on the project? 

[Scout26]

For grounding.  Why not run a ground from the panel to the cold water pipe?  That's how most houses are grounded.

Or if you are really intent on having your own ground, you can go horizontally.  A minimum of 8ft long ground rod, at least 2.5 deep.  Fill the hole with salt water, then lay in the rod and refill.   That's how we grounded generators in the Army.  No way we were going to pound a 8ft rod into the ground and then try to remove it later.   

[Gowen]

I can't add anything, but one thing to check out is the cost of replacement breakers.  My old house had some breakers that cost $60 to replace.  Starting out fresh, the cost may seem like nothing, but 10 or 20 years down the line, they might be costly.

just something to think about.

[Nick1911]

I can't add anything, but one thing to check out is the cost of replacement breakers.  My old house had some breakers that cost $60 to replace.  Starting out fresh, the cost may seem like nothing, but 10 or 20 years down the line, they might be costly.

just something to think about.

That's where I'm at with the pushmatic breakers I have now, being obsolete they are quite expensive for new ones.

For grounding.  Why not run a ground from the panel to the cold water pipe?  That's how most houses are grounded.

Or if you are really intent on having your own ground, you can go horizontally.  A minimum of 8ft long ground rod, at least 2.5 deep.  Fill the hole with salt water, then lay in the rod and refill.   That's how we grounded generators in the Army.  No way we were going to pound a 8ft rod into the ground and then try to remove it later.   

I do have a ground running to the copper cold water pipe, but my understanding of code requires an additional ground.  From NEC 2008, 250.53 (D)(2):

(2) Supplemental Electrode Required. A metal under-ground water pipe shall be supplemented by an additional
electrode of a type specified in 250.52(A)(2) through (A)( 8 ). Where the supplemental electrode is a rod, pipe, or
plate type, it shall comply with 250.56. The supplemental electrode shall be permitted to be bonded to the grounding
electrode conductor, the grounded service-entrance conductor, the nonflexible grounded service raceway, or any grounded service enclosure.

250.52(A)(2) - 250.52(A)( 8 )  [as a summery] allows:
Metal Frame of the Building or Structure
   - Not applicable to me, I don't live in a metal framed house.

Concrete-Encased Electrode
   -House it too old to have bonded rebar

Ground Ring
   -I'm not going to spring for the copper to encircle the house with 2 AWG

Buried Rod and Pipe
Buried Plate Electrode.

[Monkeyleg]

The circuit in my last house was grounded to the main water pipe as well as to a grounding rod outside.

[Hawkmoon]

I prefer Seimens panelboards. Available at Lowe's.

I don't think the NEC allows grounding to a water pipe any more, but I live in the country where we don't have public water mains, so I may be incorrect on that. If using rods for grounding, the NEC requirement is TWO rods, unless you run a test on the single rod to demonstrate conductivity to the earth. In the several years I worked as a building inspector, I never once encountered an electrical contractor who had the equipment to run that test -- it was far simpler and easier to just drive two rods and connect them with an extra six feet of wire. No test required with redundant rods.

For driving, I suggest a 6-inch pipe nipple of an inside diameter large enough to slide over the rods, and a screw-on cap to provide a larger (and somewhat softer) surface for hammering. The rods themselves will not be kind to the striking face of a sledge hammer. There's actually a special tool made for this, but I have no idea where to buy it, and for driving one or two rods it wouldn't be worth tracking it down and buying it.

[zxcvbob]

For grounding.  Why not run a ground from the panel to the cold water pipe?  That's how most houses are grounded.

Or if you are really intent on having your own ground, you can go horizontally.  A minimum of 8ft long ground rod, at least 2.5 deep.  Fill the hole with salt water, then lay in the rod and refill.   That's how we grounded generators in the Army.  No way we were going to pound a 8ft rod into the ground and then try to remove it later.   

You have to bond the cold water pipe (and jumper around the meter) AND have at least one supplemental ground electrode (ground rod)

Any tips/tricks for getting an 8 foot copper clad rod in the ground without spending all day with a hammer on a ladder?

Got a metal T-post driver?

[lupinus]

Any tips/tricks for getting an 8 foot copper clad rod in the ground without spending all day with a hammer on a ladder?

I've seen similar to this done, decent write up and has pictures. Tad messy, but meh- http://www.rogerhalstead.com/ham_files/ground.htm

[zxcvbob]

I've drilled a water well with a contraption like that!    It was a little larger...

[vaskidmark]

Do not hammer your ground rods in.  You will make your hammer, your rods, and yourself unhappy.

Use something like this http://www.homedepot.com/p/YARDGARD-Fence-Post-Driver-901147A/202024132#.UdXg85DD-70  Some equipment rental places carry them, but $30 is not bad.  Also, if your rod is thin, use "guides" made up of stacked sections of pipe over the rod to prevent bending on the way in.

Even if you live in the boonies where they still have sunshine delivered by truck twice a week, call 811 and let them know you are going to be poking holes.  They like it when you do, and it's easier/cheaper to relocate your ground rod insertion point than to dig up and repair a pipeline you never knew about.

stay safe.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

have hammer drill?  they make a cup like bit that fits em . drives rod nicely.
supposedly ;/some guys cut ground rod in 1/2.  drive the 2 halves in and looks just like 2 rods

[Nick1911]

I've seen similar to this done, decent write up and has pictures. Tad messy, but meh- http://www.rogerhalstead.com/ham_files/ground.htm

This worked FAR better then it really had any right to.

I used a piece of 3/4 EMT, found that 3/4 black iron pipe fit snugly inside the EMT, so I TIG'd them together, cobbled up some fittings to get me to a garden hose, and TIG'd a little blade on the end.

Future lessons - the tip was susceptible to bending, it would have been better to make two that fit into each other perpendicular.  Also, having "Storehouse" brand [harbor freight] hose clamps is worse then not having any hose clamps at all.  This is because if you have Storehouse hose clamps, you will think that you actually have hose clamps, when in reality all you actually have is a piece of *expletive deleted*it who's sole purpose in life is to strip out when you get even remotely close to snug, let along tight.  After about the third time that happened, I dug through the plumbing box and found some stainless Oetiker clamps.  Yea, I'll need an angle grinder to remove it, but that's a fair compromise for having actual clamping power.

811 would have been a good idea.  They marked the backyard late last year, I didn't recall anything in the area I was digging it, so I went for it.  Stupid.  I didn't hit anything, but I really should have had that marked, especially since 8' is fairly deep.

[Azrael256]

Suckers use shovels.  Water is working smart, not hard.  I've dug trenches with a power washer before.

I'm happy with Square D breakers.  Plentiful, cheap, effective.

[Jim147]

I've got a post driver if you want to barrow it. It's been a long time since I drove my ground rod but IIRC, I dug a small hole down a foot or two and filled it with water. Drove the rod a little and refilled rinse and repeat.

I have a guy that will be by tomorrow or Saturday that does a lot of from meter in installs in town for KCP&L, Any questions you want me to ask?

jim

[geronimotwo]

The circuit in my last house was grounded to the main water pipe as well as to a grounding rod outside.

^^^^this.  current code requires 2 ground rods, or a metallic cold water line and ground rod. 

square d breakers are everywhere.  for driving the rod a 4' length of pipe with a heavy endcap will get it in enough to use your hammer.

[wmenorr67]

This worked FAR better then it really had any right to.

I used a piece of 3/4 EMT, found that 3/4 black iron pipe fit snugly inside the EMT, so I TIG'd them together, cobbled up some fittings to get me to a garden hose, and TIG'd a little blade on the end.

Future lessons - the tip was susceptible to bending, it would have been better to make two that fit into each other perpendicular.  Also, having "Storehouse" brand [harbor freight] hose clamps is worse then not having any hose clamps at all.  This is because if you have Storehouse hose clamps, you will think that you actually have hose clamps, when in reality all you actually have is a piece of *expletive deleted* who's sole purpose in life is to strip out when you get even remotely close to snug, let along tight.  After about the third time that happened, I dug through the plumbing box and found some stainless Oetiker clamps.  Yea, I'll need an angle grinder to remove it, but that's a fair compromise for having actual clamping power.

811 would have been a good idea.  They marked the backyard late last year, I didn't recall anything in the area I was digging it, so I went for it.  Stupid.  I didn't hit anything, but I really should have had that marked, especially since 8' is fairly deep.

If it looks stupid but works it isn't stupid.

[zxcvbob]

If it looks stupid but works it isn't stupid.

If it works, you get extra points for looks stupid.  (the points are awarded after it works)

[bedlamite]

^^^^this.  current code requires 2 ground rods, or a metallic cold water line and ground rod. 

Natural gas line too if you have it.

[Triphammer]

Seimens is the brand to use. Their lineage tracks all the way back to Westinghouse/ Murray of the 60's & they're a match for the most common breakers used today. The panel will accept ay BR style breaker, Bryant, murray, ge, westinghouse, Sq D "Homeline".

 Driving rods we'd take an old sledge, propably broke the handle driving rods & weld a piece on 1" sched 40 galv for a handle.  The handle slides over the rod to act as a slide hammer until you need to turn it around & use it like a regular hammer.

[roo_ster]

Suckers use shovels.  Water is working smart, not hard.  I've dug trenches with a power washer before.

I'm happy with Square D breakers.  Plentiful, cheap, effective.

I like that idea.

[geronimotwo]

Driving rods we'd take an old sledge, propably broke the handle driving rods & weld a piece on 1" sched 40 galv for a handle.  The handle slides over the rod to act as a slide hammer until you need to turn it around & use it like a regular hammer.

good idea.   it would be nice to have a handle large enough to fit over a metal fencepost, but that might make it to large for a hammer handle.


as far as the water drill, I would be afraid that the ground rod wouldn't make good contact with the soil.   

[Azrael256]

I like that idea.

Use the spinny-jet thingy nozzle, not the adjustable one that goes from a fan to a point.  The spinny one clears debris better.

[Levant]

I recommend a Siemens generator ready panel.  I just bought one for my house but haven't put it in yet.  In the basic mode you can have manual cut over to generator with about half the circuits fed.  For a near-two-hundred-dollar add-on  you can have automatic start of a generator and automatic cutover.  It's designed with Generac generators in mind but you could easily adapt it to start any remote-startable generator.