Michigan legislature butthurt over Tesla, votes to essentially ban them

[sumpnz]

There have been some promising improvements to lithium-ion technology in the news recently. One example (double the energy density, 1/5 the cost):

http://fortune.com/2014/09/18/sakti3-lithium-ion-battery/

Of course that one is "2-3 years from commercialization", the question is whether in 2-3 years it will be available to buy or still "2-3 years from commercialization".

Not able to read that right now, but my guess is the "advancement" is still vaporware.  Call me back  when there's hardware proving what they claim.

[Marnoot]

Call me back  when there's hardware proving what they claim.

They've already made batteries with the higher energy density, using some new methods. The question is whether the production method can be scaled up to be as economical as they hope. It's the failure of the latter that has killed previous attempts, and yes, might just do the same with this particular method.

[sumpnz]

They've already made batteries with the higher energy density, using some new methods. The question is whether the production method can be scaled up to be as economical as they hope. It's the failure of the latter that has killed previous attempts, and yes, might just do the same with this particular method.

Lab is one thing.  Practical and useful to the marketplace is something else entirely.  Maybe past vaporware, strictly speaking, but not by much.

[fifth_column]

How about the Quant?  It's a prototype, but it uses a saltwater battery and has a  250+ mile range (theoretically.)

http://www.gizmag.com/900-hp-supercar-flow-battery/31091/

[KD5NRH]

I'm just tired of everybody wanting to build an electric car on par with a Ferrari or Rolls Royce.  I want an electric Tercel or Yugo.  If the perpetually-next-year Elio ever actually hits the market under $7k, it will utterly destroy the "I want to save money" market for $40k+ electrics.  Really, even if you had 100% free electricity; the $33k difference comes out to nearly 800k miles worth of gas for the Elio.  Even the Volt at $26,500 comes out to an Elio and over 400k miles of gas.

[mtnbkr]

So, you want an electric golf cart?  They're (barely) in your price range.

Chris

[KD5NRH]

So, you want an electric golf cart?  They're (barely) in your price range.

Fully enclose it and beef up the handling to do 75mph for at least half its range, and that wouldn't be half bad.  My commute is 6 miles each way, about 1 mile of 75, 1 mile of 55, and the rest 40 or under.  3 stop signs and 4 lights.  I seem to burn about as much gas commuting each week as a 180 mile round trip to Arlington, (2 stop signs and 2 lights, mostly 75mph until Parker County where it drops to 65) so cutting that cost would make a pretty good dent in the monthly expenses.

[Ben]

Interestingly, I ran across a link about the "West Coast Electric Highway". Sort of a prototype for charging stations as an analog to gas stations. The pricing structure caught my attention, as they aren't doing a "per use" charge right now, but rather a $20/mo subscription fee.

http://www.intelligentutility.com/article/14/10/west-coast-electric-highway

[Brad Johnson]

Interestingly, I ran across a link about the "West Coast Electric Highway". Sort of a prototype for charging stations as an analog to gas stations. The pricing structure caught my attention, as they aren't doing a "per use" charge right now, but rather a $20/mo subscription fee.

http://www.intelligentutility.com/article/14/10/west-coast-electric-highway

I'm genuinely surprised that fuel station chains haven't introduced this in some way. In an effort to increase volume through their convenience store locations.

Brad

[Tallpine]

When I was living/working within a small town, an enclosed electric golf cart with cabin heat sounded appealing 

Would still need a road car, of course.

[drewtam]

I'm just tired of everybody wanting to build an electric car on par with a Ferrari or Rolls Royce.  I want an electric Tercel or Yugo.  If the perpetually-next-year Elio ever actually hits the market under $7k, it will utterly destroy the "I want to save money" market for $40k+ electrics.  Really, even if you had 100% free electricity; the $33k difference comes out to nearly 800k miles worth of gas for the Elio.  Even the Volt at $26,500 comes out to an Elio and over 400k miles of gas.

Nissan Leaf
http://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/?dcp=ppn.63023882.&dcc=0.240189300&searchtype=brandret&model=leaf_G

[KD5NRH]

Nissan Leaf
http://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/?dcp=ppn.63023882.&dcc=0.240189300&searchtype=brandret&model=leaf_G

An Elio and 350,000 miles worth of gas for it.  Think a Leaf will go that far?

They're pretty much going to have to make an electric Elio at a similar price point to get it palatable.

IMO, one of the problems is stuffing too much luxury and customization into even the base models.  Heat and cooling, noisemaker of some sort, and cushioned seats.  I might even give up the cooling for enough savings.  Don't give me a $500 stereo with proprietary mounts and connections; my JVC was $90.  Heck, just give me a standard DIN slot in the dash and I'll deal with the rest myself.  I don't need $300 worth of built in Bluetooth; I can add it to my stereo for another $20.  $50 light under the hood?  Nothing under there to fix these days anyway.  Vinyl seats are fine for a commuter, as are uncarpeted floorboards.  It's a 30-minutes-each-way car, incapable of a four hour drive anyway; it doesn't need to be as cushy as an overstuffed recliner with Bose audio and 57 little "standard equipment" perks.

[Nick1911]

An Elio and 350,000 miles worth of gas for it.  Think a Leaf will go that far?

They're pretty much going to have to make an electric Elio at a similar price point to get it palatable.

IMO, one of the problems is stuffing too much luxury and customization into even the base models.  Heat and cooling, noisemaker of some sort, and cushioned seats.  I might even give up the cooling for enough savings.  Don't give me a $500 stereo with proprietary mounts and connections; my JVC was $90.  Heck, just give me a standard DIN slot in the dash and I'll deal with the rest myself.  I don't need $300 worth of built in Bluetooth; I can add it to my stereo for another $20.  $50 light under the hood?  Nothing under there to fix these days anyway.  Vinyl seats are fine for a commuter, as are uncarpeted floorboards.  It's a 30-minutes-each-way car, incapable of a four hour drive anyway; it doesn't need to be as cushy as an overstuffed recliner with Bose audio and 57 little "standard equipment" perks.

All that crap is what sells.  That's what your average customer values.

[Firethorn]

All that crap is what sells.  That's what your average customer values.

And since that 'crap' has margins far higher than the base car, when it comes to electrics it can be used to help 'disguise' the cost of the rest of the car.  It's also cheaper to build all of the vehicles with the features than to offer multiple line models.

Think a Leaf will go that far?

How much maintenance are you allowing?  A battery change or two along with other 'routine' maintenance for a 200k+ mile car and it should be fine.  Electric motors are extremely high durability, much of the rest of the system is solid state.

Personally, I want cloth seats.  I dislike vinyl(and, to be fair, I'm not a fan of leather).  Bluetooth might be handy.  I want a radio, though it doesn't need to be fancy.  Ability to take music from my phone via bluetooth would be awfully nice though.

And I'd argue that 'a bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush' - saying a volt is the same price as an elio and 400k miles worth of gasoline isn't really true when you can go to the dealership today and buy a volt, but can't buy an Elio.  I have looked into electric motorcycles though.

Looking up the company on wikipedia and such, I'm going to have to say that I rate their chances of success as lower than Musk's battery factory.  Speaking of which, if the Sakti batteries work out, isn't there a very good chance that Tesla's factory could be retrofitted to build the new battery type?

edit:  rereading, it'd be a nearly totally different manufacturing process, so while the lithium refining equipment and such would still be good, the rebuild would be quite extensive.  But I'd think that Tesla could keep building the old batteries as it tooled up for the new ones in that case using the spare space in the factory.

[mtnbkr]

I might even give up the cooling for enough savings. 

Not me.  It's hot AND humid here.  I run AC from May till Sept and sometimes in April and Oct.

Don't give me a $500 stereo with proprietary mounts and connections; my JVC was $90.  Heck, just give me a standard DIN slot in the dash and I'll deal with the rest myself.  I don't need $300 worth of built in Bluetooth; I can add it to my stereo for another $20.

Time is not a luxury for me.  I'll spend the extra money to have the stereo I want from the factory, as well as the factory warranty coverage.

$50 light under the hood?  Nothing under there to fix these days anyway. 

Says you.

[/quote]Vinyl seats are fine for a commuter, as are uncarpeted floorboards.  It's a 30-minutes-each-way car, incapable of a four hour drive anyway; it doesn't need to be as cushy as an overstuffed recliner with Bose audio and 57 little "standard equipment" perks.[/quote]
I spend 2hrs per commuting day in my "econobox" (I telecommute 1-3x week).  I don't want a stripped down "tallpine edition" car.  If so, I would have kept driving my 1997 4Runner (not stripped, but primitive compared to current models).

My 2013 isn't loaded, but is probably mid-high-level spec.  It's a joy for commuting between the XM/Sirius radio, USB media connection for my entire music collection, leather heated seats, etc.

Chris

[KD5NRH]

How much maintenance are you allowing?  A battery change or two along with other 'routine' maintenance for a 200k+ mile car and it should be fine.  Electric motors are extremely high durability, much of the rest of the system is solid state.

Battery change cost would need to be added to the fuel equivalent cost.  Non-engine maintenance costs should be comparable, and therefore can be essentially disregarded.  There might be a slight advantage to the electric due to the lack of engine vibration, but I doubt that's very significant compared to all the road vibration over the life of the car.

Personally, I want cloth seats.  I dislike vinyl(and, to be fair, I'm not a fan of leather).

I'd rather have removable (aftermarket $30) cloth covers over impermeable vinyl.  Dropping them in the washing machine beats trying to shampoo yesterday's coffee out of the upholstery.

Bluetooth might be handy.  I want a radio, though it doesn't need to be fancy.  Ability to take music from my phone via bluetooth would be awfully nice though.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Power-Acoustik-PD-710-Single-Din-Multimedia-Unit-w-Detachable-7-LCD-Touch-Screen/20604524 $110, and if a carmaker would just use a normal DIN slot and standardized connector, it would take longer to set the clock than to install it.

[RoadKingLarry]

An electric car would almost be practical for my 4 mile round trip commute. Highest speed limit I see is 40 mph. But since I average a good bit under 1000 miles a month even with 3-4 trips a week down to the marina I can manage with my big ass mega-cab 4x4 16 mpg pick up.

[mtnbkr]

An electric car would almost be practical for my 4 mile round trip commute.

So would a bicycle or even walking.  Sheesh.

Chris

[Tallpine]

An electric car would almost be practical for my 4 mile round trip commute. Highest speed limit I see is 40 mph. But since I average a good bit under 1000 miles a month even with 3-4 trips a week down to the marina I can manage with my big ass mega-cab 4x4 16 mpg pick up.

Just think of all the gas you could save commuting with a $40K electric car     

It would pay for itself in about 160 years 

[RoadKingLarry]

So would a bicycle or even walking.  Sheesh.

Chris

When I was on days I would walk it several times a week weather permitting. The stupid steep hill I live on top of keeps me from being interested in riding a bicycle down it, there is no riding a bicycle up it. Every year or so some kid rides their bike down it and doesn't quite make it, been more than a few broken bones over the years.

Now that I work nights I'm not about to risk getting run over walking it in the dark.

Just think of all the gas you could save commuting with a $40K electric car     

It would pay for itself in about 160 years 

A golf cart level electric maybe. No interest in the high dollar rigs. Of course not really interested in anything I can't haul a load of firewood in anyway.

[HankB]

An electric car would almost be practical for my 4 mile round trip commute . . .

When I lived in MN, I lived 4.4 miles from the office. But being Minnesota, certain things - headlights, heater, wipers, defroster, etc., - were necessities for a good part of the year. Snow, ice, and subfreezing - frequently subzero - temperatures are a challenge for electric vehicles.

And I for one don't care to drive in commuter traffic in a glorified electric golf cart, which will have all the structural integrity in a collision of an empty pop can.

[Boomhauer]

An Elio and 350,000 miles worth of gas for it.  Think a Leaf will go that far?

They're pretty much going to have to make an electric Elio at a similar price point to get it palatable.

IMO, one of the problems is stuffing too much luxury and customization into even the base models.  Heat and cooling, noisemaker of some sort, and cushioned seats.  I might even give up the cooling for enough savings.  Don't give me a $500 stereo with proprietary mounts and connections; my JVC was $90.  Heck, just give me a standard DIN slot in the dash and I'll deal with the rest myself.  I don't need $300 worth of built in Bluetooth; I can add it to my stereo for another $20.  $50 light under the hood?  Nothing under there to fix these days anyway.  Vinyl seats are fine for a commuter, as are uncarpeted floorboards.  It's a 30-minutes-each-way car, incapable of a four hour drive anyway; it doesn't need to be as cushy as an overstuffed recliner with Bose audio and 57 little "standard equipment" perks.

Nope.

I will not give up AC. Pry it from my frosty cold dead hands. The only time I go without A/C is when the compressor shits the bed, and that's only until I can get a new one and install it.

And no vinyl. Ugh. Cloth seats are what I like. Quality leather, too, but I really like some good comfortable cloth seats.

I commute an hour and 15 minutes each way every day. I like my comfort when I'm spending that time in a car. I don't want a modern Yugo or Tercel like shitbox.

And for some reason I have no problem fixing modern systems (even have rigged stuff good enough to get home on more than one occassion), other than getting to them in compact cars (which is why I have a fullsize truck, I can still get to most everything no problem)

My parents spent the early years of their marriage owning cheap shitbox cars like Chevy Vegas and the like. Nope, nope, and nope for me. I'll drive a 15-20 year old vehicle but I like mine to have the modern conveniences. Power windows and locks. A/C, key fob, comfortable and quiet ride, modern engines, a decent interior (doesn't have to be top shelf, just decent), etc.