Author Topic: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data  (Read 18087 times)

DustinD

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Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« on: March 14, 2015, 04:36:48 AM »
During the MN House committee gun debate, a major point in contention was whether Guam could tip over at the least widest part loud noises can cause hearing loss. :facepalm: There were also some more intelligent questions related to the fact that suppressed weapons can still put out damaging levels of noise, (the rep was referring to the graph below) and to what degree and effectiveness various mitigation strategies exist. Several legislators wanted to hear from audiologists on the issue before voting. We had to scramble to prove that the earth isn't flat our case before we resumed that evening. We used MN law as a source, but didn't have much time to research or even present a follow up. The bill passed regardless, but I do want to get my hands on several pieces of hard data to *prove* we are right.


Full size image

Key points to tackle, and in most cases provide solid proof:

1)  That suppressors are helpful at protecting hearing even if the noise level is still damaging. Sort of like a 10 mph car crash is preferable to a 40 mph car crash. Stated another way, that 40db over the limit causes greater harm, and or chance of harm per incident than 10db over the limit. This is important for situations were ear plugs aren't possible, emergencies, and arguably deer hunting, or bird hunting in groups.

2a)  Benefits for people who medically can't wear in ear plugs.
2b)  Benefits for hunting dogs. Reduced chance of being gun shy, and better hearing throughout their life. I need to find a good article that talks about this.
2c)  Home defense, including the children & spouses of the defendant. Obviously you can't put hearing protection on your kids when someone breaks in, and being indoors increases hearing loss from gun shots.

3)  Studies of hearing loss over long periods of time for people who did use hearing protection. Edit: I found a study. Obviously working in a 110db environment with dual protection beats the same environment at 140db. Graphs, probabilities of actual harm, degree of harm, solid proof, and sources would be awesome though.

4)  Various facts concerning LEO use. Our opponent claimed suppressors are only for committing murder and getting away with it. :mad:
         LEO use, ~800K privatly owned suppressors, and 0 crime. (or at least ~800K tax stamps, I will have to did look it up)
              Edit to add: March 2014, there were 571,750 registered suppressors. following the trend line, and per another source, it is over 800K now.

5)  Proving the way hearing protection applies. Example, a 30db suppressor and 30db ear plugs = 60db reduction. 30db plugs + 30db muffs ~= 33db-35db total reduction. Need proof and sources.
         OSHA says to add 5db to the higher of the two numbers, but to nerf the highest number. The reason being is because people don't always wear protection properly, and because there can be problems with the protection.

6)  (per MicroBalrog's post below) Data, preferably .gov data, on suppressor noise reduction. (so far only third party reviews and industry marketing)

If anyone knows some good specific sources to use, it would be helpful. I have already found some good great ones.

Quote from: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7761796
Physical characteristics of gunfire impulse noise and its attenuation by hearing protectors.
150-2,500 Hz (peak 900-1,500 Hz) for small-caliber weapons (rifles).
In rifle shooting, the attenuation efficiency of earplugs (16dB) or small-volume (thin) earmuffs (17 dB) was not sufficient and their use as sole protectors cannot be recommended. Instead, large-volume earmuffs should be used. Impulses from pistol and shotgun were fairly effectively attenuated both by small-volume and large-volume earmuffs.

http://triggered.clockss.org/ServeContent?url=http://archfami.ama-assn.org%2Fcgi%2Fcontent%2Ffull%2F9%2F4%2F352    Study finds hunting and target shooting causes hearing loss in men.
http://www.asha.org/public/hearing/Recreational-Firearm-Noise-Exposure/       A gold mine of awesome data.
      Rifles can go over 175db, indoors increases hearing loss, severe hearing loss with as little as one shot, muzzle brakes increase noise (Dustin's note: suppressors do the same job of reducing recoil, but without the added noise).
http://www.audiologyonline.com/releases/effects-doubling-up-on-hearing-4302
http://www.msha.gov/regs/complian/guides/noise/guide303.htm    mining regs, refers to when dual protection is required by regulation.
http://home.earthlink.net/~dnitzer/4HaasEaton/Decibel.html    chart, noise level of various things, I will look for a better one.
https://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/noise/hcp/attenuation_estimation.html   useful for estimating noise reduction, and for using dual protection.
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA468459   .pdf  Covers sound pressure, and bone conduction.
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA454471   .pdf  NIHL (Noise Induced Hearing Loss), read section 15-2.
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA501586   .pdf  The limits of plugs, and doubled hearing protection. Limit caused by bone conduction of sound. Noise helmets. Bone sound conduction study.

I know MN law and CDC have some nice sites.

MN law: 116.07 sub 2(c) authorizes noise laws, standards, and limits. PCA (pollution control agency) sets the limits.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/silencer/
http://www.silencertalk.com/results.htm   Suppressor noise measurements
http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/statistics/CommerceReport/firearms_commerce_annual_statistical_report_2014.pdf      ATF, NFA, sales statistics
http://www.nssf.org/factsheets/              Many fact sheets, some are bit light IMHO.
http://www.gunfacts.info/infographics/     lots of beautiful charts and graphs
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=517074     TFL thread dedicated to links, citations, and sources of info

Quote from: NSSF
Apparently, today’s shooters like the sounds of silence. Americans are buying and licensing more suppressors and other NFA (National Firearms Act) items than ever before. The number of NFA applications filed with the NFA Branch at ATF continues to rise. With a greatly increased staff of 25 Legal Instrument Examiners, the backlog of NFA forms has been whittled down from more than 80,000 to about 36,000. Much of the intense increase in interest in NFA items is focused on silencers. According to ATF’s 2011 Commerce in Firearms Report, as of December 2010 there were 284,087 lawfully registered silencers in the United States. As of March 2014, there were 571,750. That’s means the number of registered suppressor more than doubled in three and a quarter years. And 2015 will probably be a record year for suppressor sales.
Total number of Suppressors owned by citizens by year:
2011   285,087   January
2012   360,534
2013   494,452
2014   571,750   March
2015  ~800,000  Now

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/2011-0069-3140.pdf    National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health  .pdf concerning shooting ranges.
Quote from: CDC  National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health Report on shooting range safety
The only potentially effective noise control method to reduce students’ or instructors’ noise exposure from gunfire is through the use of noise suppressors that can be attached to the end of the gun barrel.

Edited way too many times to add a lot more info.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 04:02:25 AM by DustinD »
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2015, 05:43:36 AM »
Is there anywhere testing data on how different suppressors perform?
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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2015, 09:29:07 PM »
2b)  Hunting dogs.  Since most are hunting under shotguns, there's not going to be much to benefit dogs here.

Probably the best thing to use is OHSA guidelines and regulations, use the .gov against itself.  Also muffler/motorcycle loudness laws already on the books.
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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2015, 09:33:01 PM »
2b)  Hunting dogs.  Since most are hunting under shotguns, there's not going to be much to benefit dogs here.


There are supressors for shotguns.
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DustinD

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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2015, 10:03:02 PM »

Full Size Image

One interesting fact I learned today is that it is impossible to protect your hearing from all of the damage when shooting a typical rifle because of bone conduction. Noise attenuation beyond about 33db is impossible without a full face noise helmet. Even though using plugs and muffs while shooting an unmuffled rifle doesn't physically hurt, it does cause instant, irreparable, accumulative damage. Sources: The three www.dtic.mil links in the original post.
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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2015, 12:12:20 AM »
There are supressors for shotguns.
Do they make the 12gauge go "PFFFT" when firing, like Colt .38 snubbies do on those oldtime TV shows do when equiped with silencers?  [tinfoil] [tinfoil] :facepalm:


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DustinD

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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2015, 02:06:28 AM »
Full size image

Full size image

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/silencer/     Lots of good info at this site.

Awesome find, Fly320s.

« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 04:24:24 PM by DustinD »
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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2015, 02:15:53 PM »
This guy has a nice primer on sound attenuation:

http://precisionrifleblog.com/
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DustinD

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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2015, 05:07:24 AM »
My two day window of editing the first post is over  :'(  All future updates will be in this post until I have reason to start another post, or my two days are up.

http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.hearingconservation.org/resource/resmgr/imported/Meinke_AuditoryRiskYouthTargetShootingv1.4.pdf    Youth risk of hearing loss. It doesn't mention suppressors, but the data and conclusions show that you can't keep kids inside their recommended 120 dB limit with plugs + muffs.
     120-dB peak limit suggested by the World Health Organization (1999) for children.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/wp-solutions/2013-104/pdfs/2013-104.pdf      "If state law permits, consider providing noise suppressors for gun barrels [NIOSH 2011]."
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/2011-0069-3140.pdf    "The only potentially effective noise control method to reduce students’ or instructors’ noise exposure from gunfire is through the use of noise suppressors that can be attached to the end of the gun barrel. However, some states do not permit civilians to use suppressors on firearms."
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/2013-0124-3208.pdf    "What the Employer Can Do... Use noise suppressors on firearms, if feasible." "We recommended using dual hearing protection during all live fire training exercises and installing additional noise controls."


I have plenty of proof that protection using plugs and muffs above about 36 dB(C), 36 NRR, 29 dB(A) is impossible due to bone conduction. Every source without any exception agrees with that. Many rifles (especially the ones with muzzle brakes, shorter barrels, higher speed ammo) are loud enough (175 db+ depending on source) that safely shooting them is impossible. You can only reduce but not eliminate hearing loss. The first link in this post says that children can't use many firearms without risking permanent hearing loss. Their limit is 120 dB according to the WHO.

http://www.msstate.edu/web/media/detail.php?id=1812  Hearing loss in hunting dogs.   
Quote
"We are very excited about our preliminary data," he said. "Practically all of the hunting dogs have some hearing loss and practically all of the non-hunting dogs have great hearing."

The difference in hearing ability between the two test groups "is extreme," he added."

I have many other sources to add, and ideas and such to follow up on.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 03:05:21 PM by DustinD »
"I don't always shoot defenceless women in the face, but when I do, I prefer H-S Precision.

Stay bloodthirsty, my friends."

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MechAg94

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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2015, 03:15:13 PM »
I will have to read all these links later.  I figure the amount of hearing damage from momentary gun shots at high decibels is not the same as sustained high decibel noise from operating heavy equipment.  I think the loudest point in our plant is 130 DB between a couple compressors. 

A good point I heard on Gun Talk Radio was that now that we have this NICS instant background check system, why can't be just buy suppressors with a NICS check?  The dealer could collect the tax stamp money also if they wanted to keep that system. 
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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2015, 05:37:45 PM »
I got hyperacusis and tinnitus from shooting a shotgun once wearing earplugs.  I forgot to put on my muffs too, for once in my life and now I am screwed.

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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2015, 11:05:54 PM »
Still looking for the best way to prove that dual protection isn't good enough. Most sources confirm it one way or the other, but except for the CDC/NIOSH none seem to come out and say it directly, except the link concerning children. Children have a max recommended noise exposure of 120 dB, as apposed to 140 dB for adults, which also causes permanent hearing loss in an instant for adults. I need to look into that more.

Another angle to explore. MN constitution recognizes and protects hunting. You arguably can't, and certainly can't under many conditions, hunt safely (referring to hearing health) unless you use a suppressor. Those who can't handle recoil or firearm weight need a suppressor or muzzle brake, and brakes break your ears.

Below is a somewhat organised list of links that I have found, I have lots more to do. Sorry for the lack of over sized pictures in this post. :)

#########  Hearing Loss Studies & Statistics  ###########

http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/statistics/CommerceReport/firearms_commerce_annual_statistical_report_2014.pdf
http://www.asha.org/public/hearing/Recreational-Firearm-Noise-Exposure/
http://hearinghealthfoundation.org/statistics     statistics of hearingloss
http://www.betterhearing.org/hearingpedia/hearing-loss-prevention/noise-induced-hearing-loss
http://www.betterhearing.org/

---  Hunters / Men  ---
http://triggered.clockss.org/ServeContent?url=http://archfami.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/9/4/352    ...recreational firearms is associated with marked high-frequency hearing loss in men.
http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/inside/spr06/pages/pg2.aspx   Hunters often don't wear protection, but should.

---  Children  ---
http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.hearingconservation.org/resource/resmgr/imported/Meinke_AuditoryRiskYouthTargetShootingv1.4.pdf  among other things, single exposure exceeds recommended limits.
       http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/14992027.2013.865845   exact same as above, but it's the primary source.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2532893/    Noise-induced hearing loss in children
http://www.entnet.org/content/noise-induced-hearing-loss-children
http://www.livestrong.com/article/528530-dangerous-noise-levels-for-infants/

---  Dogs  ---
http://www.msstate.edu/web/media/detail.php?id=1812  Hearing loss in hunting dogs.   "Practically all of the hunting dogs have some hearing loss and practically all of the non-hunting dogs have great hearing." The difference in hearing ability between the two test groups "is extreme," he added.

#########  physics of Noise  ##########

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA468459    .mil  covers sound pressure, and bone conduction.
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA454471    .mil  NIHL, read section 15-2. NIHL, section 15-2. "...limit ... muffs and/or plugs, because they do not attenuate sounds that are conducted to the inner ear by the hard and soft tissues of the head and body."
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA501586    .mil  nice graphs, plugs can't help you by themselves

http://home.earthlink.net/~dnitzer/4HaasEaton/Decibel.html   a chart with decibel levels, not great.
http://www.coopersafety.com/noisereduction.aspx
http://www.silencerresearch.com/hearing_protection.htm     value of plugs, degree of suppressor reduction

http://www.earplugstore.com/morabshootea.html
     36 dB (C-weighted) is the maximum possible using ear muffs and ear plugs simultaneously, equating to only a 36 - 7 = 29 dB(A) protection.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7761796    characteristics of gunfire

http://www.audiologyonline.com/releases/effects-doubling-up-on-hearing-4302

http://acoustics.org/pressroom/httpdocs/162nd/Dietz_3pNS3.html     acoustic helmet
https://www.sbir.gov/sbirsearch/detail/264669    Advanced Helmet for Maintainer Head and Hearing Protection

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zTXiPcpLV0&t=195    HowStuffWorks - can sound kill you?

#########  Regulations  #############

http://www.msha.gov/regs/complian/guides/noise/guide303.htm       mining regs, refers to when dual protection is required.
https://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/noise/hcp/attenuation_estimation.html

https://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/new_noise/   Very long, 140db max for firearms before hearingloss.

http://wp.roedale.de/en/hauptmenue/schiesslaermminderung/faqs/thema-hoerschaden/    Some Facts and Government regulations from across the pond

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/wp-solutions/2013-104/pdfs/2013-104.pdf      If state law permits, consider providing noise suppressors for gun barrels
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/2011-0069-3140.pdf    The only potentially effective noise control method to reduce students’ or instructors’ noise exposure from gunfire is through the use of noise suppressors that can be attached to the end of the gun barrel. However, some states do not permit civilians to use suppressors on firearms.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/2013-0124-3208.pdf    What the Employer Can Do... Use noise suppressors on firearms, if feasible.
     We recommended using dual hearing protection during all live fire training exercises and installing additional noise controls.

https://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/new_noise/

#########  Opinion - Editorial  ###########

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/11/05/405370/-A-Democrat-s-guide-to-why-firearm-sound-suppressors-silencers-should-be-made-easier-to-obtain

#########  Industry  ##########

http://www.silencertalk.com/results.htm      suppressor noise measurements
http://www.nssf.org/factsheets/PDF/Suppressors.pdf
http://www.nssf.org/factsheets/
http://www.gunfacts.info/infographics/

#########  Suppressors 2015  #########
#########  MN Legislative Links and Video  #########

http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/htv/archivesCOMM.asp?comm=89019&ls_year=89    House Public Safety and Crime Prevention Policy and Finance Committee
https://events.qwikcast.tv/QwikCast/QwikCastEventById?eventKey=56ec96c7-941e-4bbb-a2c4-fd790b514e1f&eventPageId=1366   Minnesota House Live Webcast and Mobile Stream
http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/htv/programa.asp?ls_year=89&event_id=881927    TV feed
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2015, 07:21:07 AM »

Full Size Image


Quoting this image, because those sure look like some happy doggies.  =)
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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2015, 10:10:37 AM »
At an event recently, and the discussion came around to suppressors for hunting.  One opponent cited safety concerns, in that he wants to hear shots so he knows where other hunters are.  He then went on about how suppressor requirements for hunting are just another way for the liberals to tax hunting and shooting out of existence.  He pointed out that by the time you pay $1,500 for the silencer to put on your 12 gauge, plus the federal license, you just put the cost of that shotgun out of the financial reach of a lot of hunters.  I was going to write him off as another tinfoil cap guy, but thinking about the people I see who hunt to put meat on the table, because they can afford an 870 and slugs to get a deer in the freezer, a silencer requirement might take that option away.
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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2015, 10:16:14 AM »
At an event recently, and the discussion came around to suppressors for hunting.  One opponent cited safety concerns, in that he wants to hear shots so he knows where other hunters are.  He then went on about how suppressor requirements for hunting are just another way for the liberals to tax hunting and shooting out of existence.  He pointed out that by the time you pay $1,500 for the silencer to put on your 12 gauge, plus the federal license, you just put the cost of that shotgun out of the financial reach of a lot of hunters.  I was going to write him off as another tinfoil cap guy, but thinking about the people I see who hunt to put meat on the table, because they can afford an 870 and slugs to get a deer in the freezer, a silencer requirement might take that option away.
That argument is like saying buying mufflers puts cars out of reach for most people.
The counter to that would be that suppressors would be a lot cheaper if they weren't NFA items.
There are cheap bushings (~$50 or so) out there now that adapt a barrel threads to oil filters that provide adequate sound suppression- its just highly illegal to actually do it without going through the stupid ATF.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2015, 10:17:36 AM »
 ???

I thought the goal was to allow suppressors, not to require them.

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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2015, 10:32:58 AM »
???

I thought the goal was to allow suppressors, not to require them.

Sorry.  There is some push I've heard of (here in Ohio) to require a suppressor for hunting.
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41magsnub

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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2015, 10:34:54 AM »
???

I thought the goal was to allow suppressors, not to require them.

Yeah, I'm confused now too.

Personally, I would love it if suppressors were allowed for hunting (currently aren't in MT either).  I would right now, today, plop down the cash and start the ATF paperwork for a shotgun suppressor if I could use it for bird hunting.

Just looked at the silencerco one.  I guess I'd be putting in my SBS paperwork too :)

Sadly we are no where near legal suppressors for hunting, we have a bill right now clarifying that we can use suppressors for non-game species.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 10:48:12 AM by 41magsnub »

MikeB

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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2015, 10:48:32 AM »
At an event recently, and the discussion came around to suppressors for hunting.  One opponent cited safety concerns, in that he wants to hear shots so he knows where other hunters are.  He then went on about how suppressor requirements for hunting are just another way for the liberals to tax hunting and shooting out of existence.  He pointed out that by the time you pay $1,500 for the silencer to put on your 12 gauge, plus the federal license, you just put the cost of that shotgun out of the financial reach of a lot of hunters.  I was going to write him off as another tinfoil cap guy, but thinking about the people I see who hunt to put meat on the table, because they can afford an 870 and slugs to get a deer in the freezer, a silencer requirement might take that option away.

I would have laughed at him. Any center fire rifle used for hunting you are going to hear at a pretty good distance and will definitely hear the sonic crack even with a suppressor. .223 ,.243,.270,etc and .30 type calibers are plenty loud even with a suppressor, just more pleasant to shoot and you might get away without ears, not that I would recommend shooting either without ears even with a suppressor.

brimic

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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2015, 11:44:49 AM »
I would have laughed at him. Any center fire rifle used for hunting you are going to hear at a pretty good distance and will definitely hear the sonic crack even with a suppressor. .223 ,.243,.270,etc and .30 type calibers are plenty loud even with a suppressor, just more pleasant to shoot and you might get away without ears, not that I would recommend shooting either without ears even with a suppressor.

Yep. I've fired a friend's suppressed .223, .30, and a .45auto and none of them would I consider safe without hearing protection, but definately 'safer.'  The .300 blackout OTOH, is about as loud as a nail gun.
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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2015, 01:00:31 PM »
At an event recently, and the discussion came around to suppressors for hunting.  One opponent cited safety concerns, in that he wants to hear shots so he knows where other hunters are.  He then went on about how suppressor requirements for hunting are just another way for the liberals to tax hunting and shooting out of existence.  He pointed out that by the time you pay $1,500 for the silencer to put on your 12 gauge, plus the federal license, you just put the cost of that shotgun out of the financial reach of a lot of hunters.  I was going to write him off as another tinfoil cap guy, but thinking about the people I see who hunt to put meat on the table, because they can afford an 870 and slugs to get a deer in the freezer, a silencer requirement might take that option away.
Solution: make suppressors available from any gunstore, with, at the most, a background check.
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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2015, 01:55:54 PM »
Solution: make suppressors available from any gunstore, with, at the most, a background check.

Works for me...

FYI, Ohio did pass legislation which will allow (not require) hunting with suppressed firearms.
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brimic

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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2015, 01:57:44 PM »
Solution: make suppressors available from any gunstore, with, at the most, a background check.

Not going to happen. The BATFE needs them for revenue and for justifying its own existence. ;/

Some gun shops do carry them, but you aren't going to buy one and walk out with it the same day- 6 months later, if you are lucky.
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Re: Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2015, 04:48:29 PM »
I just imagine that if suppressors were handled the same way a rifle was, imagine all the hunting rifles essentially being delivered with built in suppressors.  It would be interesting to see the design changes and innovation that might come in.  

I figure it would also lead to the military adopting some sort of sound suppression for military arms.
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