Noise, suppressors, hearing loss, research data

[mtnbkr]

Air rifles with integral suppressors are commonplace and legal in Europe.

Frankly, I'd happily support a law requiring suppressors for hunting if they were as easy to get as a non-serialized gun parts and inexpensive.  It would save the hearing of those shooting the guns as well as those who happen to be nearby.  It may remove some of the arguments against hunting in semi-rural areas, prohibitions against hunting on Sunday, etc.

Chris

[Viking]

Air rifles with integral suppressors are commonplace and legal in Europe.

Frankly, I'd happily support a law requiring suppressors for hunting if they were as easy to get as a non-serialized gun parts and inexpensive.  It would save the hearing of those shooting the guns as well as those who happen to be nearby.  It may remove some of the arguments against hunting in semi-rural areas, prohibitions against hunting on Sunday, etc.

Chris

I've seen .22 LR CZ and Norinco rifles for sale on a French gunshop's webpage. IIRC, they are almost over-the-counter in both Finland and Norway, all you need to show is your firearms license for a weapon in that caliber, along with an ID card.

[DustinD]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21493334   Comparison of muzzle suppression and ear-level hearing protection in firearm use.

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To compare noise reduction of commercially available ear-level hearing protection (muffs/inserts) to that of firearm muzzle suppressors.

SETTING: Experimental sound measurements under consistent environmental conditions.

STUDY DESIGN AND METHODS:  Muzzle suppressors for 2 pistol and 2 rifle calibers were tested using the Bruel & Kjaer 2209 sound meter and Bruel & Kjaer 4136 microphone calibrated with the Bruel & Kjaer Pistonphone using Military-Standard 1474D placement protocol. Five shots were recorded unsuppressed and 10 shots suppressed under consistent environmental conditions. Sound reduction was then compared with the real-world noise reduction rate of the best available ear-level protectors.

RESULTS:  All suppressors offered significantly greater noise reduction than ear-level protection, usually greater than 50% better. Noise reduction of all ear-level protectors is unable to reduce the impulse pressure below 140 dB for certain common firearms, an international standard for prevention of sensorineural hearing loss.

CONCLUSION:  Modern muzzle-level suppression is vastly superior to ear-level protection and the only available form of suppression capable of making certain sporting arms safe for hearing. The inadequacy of standard hearing protectors with certain common firearms is not recognized by most hearing professionals or their patients and should affect the way hearing professionals counsel patients and the public.

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I have gotten behind on this thread. I have more to add.

After MN wins suppressor access I am going to start evangelising suppressor usage and the hearing loss data I have found.

[KD5NRH]

Air rifles with integral suppressors are commonplace and legal in Europe.

Which is utterly meaningless, since if you watch any movie set in Europe, they fire off unsuppressed SMGs in the middle of busy streets all the time, and nobody even bothers to call the police. 

[DustinD]

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6028a4.htm  "Among military veterans, the most common service-connected disabilities are hearing impairments."

[Perd Hapley]

Which is utterly meaningless, since if you watch any movie set in Europe, they fire off unsuppressed SMGs in the middle of busy streets all the time, and nobody even bothers to call the police. 

I must say I never noticed that in Amelie, or The Seventh Seal.

[K Frame]

Anyone see the anti-gun advertisement that's making it's way around right now that really shoots itself in the foot?

Something to the effect of "Fact: Silencers don't protect hearing..."

Then it goes on to say just how terrifying it would be to turn someone lose with a silenced weapon in NYC -- no one would know that they're being shot at because the gun would be so quiet...

I love it when legislators think that they can have their facts and their utter bullshit, too.

Sad thing about it is, when Gillibrand was a NY state legislator, she was actually pretty pro gun rights.

I was only after she was appointed to fill Hillary's seat that she became rabidly anti-gun.

[MechAg94]

There was a page on Twitchy about it.  It does seem they were trying to play both sides of the fence on that one.  

Thanks for resurrecting this thread.  I need to go back to some of those links.

[Ben]

Sad thing about it is, when Gillibrand was a NY state legislator, she was actually pretty pro gun rights.

I was only after she was appointed to fill Hillary's seat that she became rabidly anti-gun.

That is very surprising to me. I've never paid much attention to her in the past -- only since she has come out as a snowflake leader. From that, I would have thought she was far, far left her entire career.

[Monkeyleg]

Is there anywhere testing data on how different suppressors perform?

The noise reduction data comes from the manufacturers or the retailers. There's a standard that's to be used---decibel meter 90 degrees from muzzle and 1 meter away, muzzle and decibel meter 1.X meters from the ground--but in manufacturers' videos I see the meters placed in different spots. Also, there's only two meters that will accurately record the sound (pressure) levels on gun shots, but not everyone uses one of the two.

The old Mil-spec testing procedure was probably the best, but the numbers weren't as sexy for the manufacturers as the "new" standard procedure.

There was a guy who bought the whole Bruhn & Kjaer 2209 setup, and was doing the testing properly for whoever wanted it, but as I understand it he didn't have many takers.

[Hawkmoon]

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6028a4.htm  "Among military veterans, the most common service-connected disabilities are hearing impairments."

Probably true. I've got a 10% disability rating for tinnitus. Met with an American Legion veterans service officer on Monday about getting it upgraded for hearing loss. The VA thinks my hearing loss is bad enough that they give me hearing aids, but they didn't include that in the disability rating.  The military made us wear ear plugs on the shooting range, but they didn't issue ear plugs for field use in Vietnam, and I don't recall anyone waiting to join a fire fight until he had pulled his own, personally-owned ear plugs out of a pocket and inserted them.

[K Frame]

That is very surprising to me. I've never paid much attention to her in the past -- only since she has come out as a snowflake leader. From that, I would have thought she was far, far left her entire career.

I suspect it's a case of her now showing her TRUE colors. I suspect that when she was representing New York in the US House she represented a more pro-gun constitutency...

Yep. She represented an upstate New York district. Haven't looked at the particulars, but upstate NY is a LOT more conservative.

When she was appointed to fill Clinton's seat, she was able to show her true colors.

[MechAg94]

The noise reduction data comes from the manufacturers or the retailers. There's a standard that's to be used---decibel meter 90 degrees from muzzle and 1 meter away, muzzle and decibel meter 1.X meters from the ground--but in manufacturers' videos I see the meters placed in different spots. Also, there's only two meters that will accurately record the sound (pressure) levels on gun shots, but not everyone uses one of the two.

The old Mil-spec testing procedure was probably the best, but the numbers weren't as sexy for the manufacturers as the "new" standard procedure.

There was a guy who bought the whole Bruhn & Kjaer 2209 setup, and was doing the testing properly for whoever wanted it, but as I understand it he didn't have many takers.

I have seen some videos on youtube doing testing of several different suppressors at a time.  I thought it was the Military Arms Channel guy, but maybe not.

[cordex]

I don't know if MicroBalrog still cares, but they have some pretty good test data here:
http://nfatalk.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=5

[Pb]

I got hyperacusis from shooting a shotgun once while wearing earplugs only (forgot the muffs).  It has been horrifically painful and disabling.

Ear damage from gunfire is no joke and can / will occur even with plugs/muffs.

[Perd Hapley]

I got hyperacusis from shooting a shotgun once while wearing earplugs only (forgot the muffs).  It has been horrifically painful and disabling.

Ear damage from gunfire is no joke and can / will occur even with plugs/muffs.

How much does Big Silencer pay you to shill for them?

[Pb]

How much does Big Silencer pay you to shill for them?

If any of you want to know more about hyperacusis, my disease from Hell, this is the best internet site on the topic:

http://www.hyperacusis.net

[DustinD]

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20170317/are-ear-plugs-better-than-a-suppressor Cites some of the same research listed above, attacks ARS. (Americans for Responsible Solutions)

[DustinD]

I am putting together a proper website to display much of this data. Now that we have a chance of winning at the federal level please post any other resources that have not yet been mentioned.

The website is going up at www.hardhittingfacts.com