Author Topic: Yay minimum wage!  (Read 9095 times)

Ron

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2015, 09:42:34 AM »
I'm opposed to the min wage in principle.

On the other hand there are multiple other areas that need to be addressed and are more important than opposing the min wage.

Government regulation and taxation. The size and scope of all levels of government. The debasing of the currency via our inflationary money policies.  

The minimum wage push is a symptom of a broken system that has too many distortions in the market to properly set price and wages across the board.

Maybe a minimum wage overreach is exactly what the folks in this country need to wake up to the terrible burden government regulation and taxation have put on all of us directly and indirectly. If all small business owners voted for small government, low tax, pro liberty I would have a bit more compassion. The truth is they've helped get us in this situation every bit as much as the welfare queens and national/international corporatists.

Currently I believe we have the government we deserve and my plan is to insulate myself as much as I can from the system and watch as it devours itself.

edited to add: maybe as pro liberty folks we need to flip the narrative and be OK with hoi polloi bleeding the government/corporatist axis dry.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 10:09:08 AM by Ron »
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wmenorr67

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2015, 10:08:41 AM »
Where I work for a family health plan it costs the employee I believe close to $316.12 for a HMO and $402.70 for a POS a month.  From what I have heard that is roughly 25% of the actual cost of the plan which means those that take part of the benefit are getting $5000 plus extra a year from the company.  I on the other hand am using Tri-care and pay just over $200 a month.  Our operations manager has tossed around with no one else behind him to give us the option to get paid a little more if we don't use the company health plan.  I lose over $2 an hour of pay based on a 40 hour week by not using the company plan.  I would love to have that money in my pocket.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2015, 05:29:39 PM »
It just seems to me ridiculous that anyone could demand any level of pay whatsoever - if Wal Mart wants to offer a ball of rice and some newspaper for housing as pay, anyone lame enough not to have other options should be happy to accept (or not, if they'd prefer to starve).

True freedom cannot be achieved until a huge portion of America is desperate for any wage at all, much less some artificial "minimum wage" that buys them food!



I recommend that you re-read Karl Marx's Das Kapital.

I mean this in a serious, entirely unironic sense: he explains why this 'everyone's wages declining to a bowl of rice' thing does not occur in a capitalist economy that does not have a minimum wage. It's literally in the first (or possibly second) chapter of Das Kapital).

Furthermore, you are largely correct:

You cannot achieve the levels of freedom which I, and others on this board, desire, without abolishing the minimum wage and all trappings of the welfare state.

I am less sanguine about this fact than others on this board, but it remains true:

Either you have the War on Drugs, gun regulations, god-knows-what-levels-of-BS, or you need to mercilessly eradicate the welfare state.

Nothing short of total mercilessness on this issue will suffice.

Literally the wailing of poor welfare moms being chucked out of freshly-privatized public housing needs to be heard throughout the land.
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De Selby

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2015, 08:07:47 PM »
My point was about increasing wages putting people out of business - Marx seemed to address that like a regular economist.  I'm pretty sure the same chapters explain quite reasonably why higher wages don't lead to mass unemployment or even losses to business.  For example, a minimum wage that allows people to afford mortgages might drive home prices.  Minimum wages that allow for buying health insurance and food might drive profits for those sectors. 

Poor people being tossed into the street to starve or work to live in 20-member homes is not my idea of freedom. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MicroBalrog

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2015, 08:25:41 PM »
The fact is that capitalist business cannot - and in fact is unable to - pay people less than what is perceived as the minimum necessary for survival. In other words, a de-facto 'minimum wage' always exist, and in a free market is always growing in the long-term. This is not, again, some right-wing propaganda, this is Das Kapital.

Quote
don't lead to mass unemployment or even losses to business.  For example, a minimum wage that allows people to afford mortgages might drive home prices.  Minimum wages that allow for buying health insurance and food might drive profits for those sectors. 

I cannot imagine you are being serious.

The fact that increasing the minimum wage in one sector has increased profits in another sector does not mean that there have not been losses in the sector in which the increases in wages have occurred.
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MechAg94

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2015, 08:57:50 PM »
Poor people being tossed into the street to starve or work to live in 20-member homes is not my idea of freedom. 
I would say you don't really know what freedom is then.  Taking money away from working people to pay deadbeats who are encouraged to not work and encouraged to make poor decisions is not freedom.  It is a form of slavery for both groups. 
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Sergeant Bob

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2015, 09:29:17 PM »
OK ,   you can't blame what hasn't happened yet.

I wonder why people think that making labor more expensive will have a beneficial effect on the operation of private businesses, though.  

And if $15 per hour is good, why not $50.00 per hour?   [popcorn]

Quoted for truth. Why not $50 per hour?
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Boomhauer

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2015, 09:39:21 PM »
Still trying to figure out why somebody who can't put a cheeseburger together correctly deserves $15/hr "minimum wage"

« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 09:43:01 PM by Boomhauer »
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Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

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Boomhauer

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2015, 09:44:10 PM »
I would say you don't really know what freedom is then.  Taking money away from working people to pay deadbeats who are encouraged to not work and encouraged to make poor decisions is not freedom.  It is a form of slavery for both groups. 

Soooo much this. *expletive deleted*ck the multi-generational welfare wastes of oxygen. They can starve in the streets. These "people" who have never held a job in their lives and never will (and are PROUD of it) are the ones voting for politicians who steal from the productive members of society.





« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 09:54:44 PM by Boomhauer »
Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2015, 11:15:52 PM »
Sat with a chef friend tonite talking about this.
If we pay a bad employeee 15 an hour we will be unable to pay the good one 20
And we talked about a friend who wasn't worth even the current minimum wage. Its sad to say that about a guy pushing 30 with a kid hes not paying for


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Perd Hapley

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2015, 11:43:13 PM »
Poor people being tossed into the street to starve or work to live in 20-member homes is not my idea of freedom. 


The educational system has truly failed you.  =(


Those things are certainly an aspect of freedom. Among the other aspects are a general increase in prosperity for all (even the people you think you care about), once people like you get out of their way. Go make money with your fancy lawyer job, and leave the rest of us alone.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 11:49:38 PM by fistful »
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2015, 12:12:26 AM »
There is a merciless fact of reality:

If we let the state 'assist' poor people, then the state will inevitably - powered by the very same conservatives that oppose welfare spending, and by the same liberals who claim to love the poor - impose more and more restrictions on the lives of the poor... and of everyone else as well.

Either you accept this, or you must destroy minimum wages and public housing.
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Firethorn

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2015, 07:21:42 AM »
If we let the state 'assist' poor people, then the state will inevitably - powered by the very same conservatives that oppose welfare spending, and by the same liberals who claim to love the poor - impose more and more restrictions on the lives of the poor... and of everyone else as well.

This is why I occasionally think there's some merit to a reverse income tax/basic income guarantee.  Studies have shown that things are better when we don't try to put too many limits on the aid we give people.

So long as we're not willing to let people starve in the street, or more likely shoot them when they get so desperate as to commit crime, we need to have some sort of 'welfare'.  By which I mean that I believe that prison should be about reform, and part of that is that we need to have life outside of prison be better than life inside of it.  In short, if you're not committing crimes, you should have the same basic benefits we give prisoners - minimal housing, food, medical care, and education.  But if they're not in prison or other institution we can generally reduce that down to a simple monetary payment.

Then, once you have that universality in place, you can get rid of minimum wage.  While you're at it, get rid of things like housing codes that aren't about safe housing, but 'cheap' housing.  Things like minimum size requirements, restrictions on the number of occupants in a home(more is cheaper, of course), etc...  Much of the reason why living expenses are so high in the USA is that we demand a fair bit of 'luxury' even at the bottom.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2015, 10:48:08 AM »
My point was about increasing wages putting people out of business - Marx seemed to address that like a regular economist.  I'm pretty sure the same chapters explain quite reasonably why higher wages don't lead to mass unemployment or even losses to business.  For example, a minimum wage that allows people to afford mortgages might drive home prices.  Minimum wages that allow for buying health insurance and food might drive profits for those sectors.  

Poor people being tossed into the street to starve or work to live in 20-member homes is not my idea of freedom.  
That's a fail.  Higher wages and higher prices aren't actually higher wages.  That's just inflation.  Paychecks may have bigger numbers on them, but nobody is wealthier for it.

And seriously?  Paying a mortgage on minimum wage?  Gimme a break.


« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 11:15:32 AM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2015, 11:14:10 AM »
This is why I occasionally think there's some merit to a reverse income tax/basic income guarantee.  Studies have shown that things are better when we don't try to put too many limits on the aid we give people.

So long as we're not willing to let people starve in the street, or more likely shoot them when they get so desperate as to commit crime, we need to have some sort of 'welfare'.  By which I mean that I believe that prison should be about reform, and part of that is that we need to have life outside of prison be better than life inside of it.  In short, if you're not committing crimes, you should have the same basic benefits we give prisoners - minimal housing, food, medical care, and education.  But if they're not in prison or other institution we can generally reduce that down to a simple monetary payment.

Then, once you have that universality in place, you can get rid of minimum wage.  While you're at it, get rid of things like housing codes that aren't about safe housing, but 'cheap' housing.  Things like minimum size requirements, restrictions on the number of occupants in a home(more is cheaper, of course), etc...  Much of the reason why living expenses are so high in the USA is that we demand a fair bit of 'luxury' even at the bottom.
And just how, exactly, are we supposed to pay for this universal unearned wage you want to give out to everyone?


cordex

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2015, 11:24:40 AM »
And just how, exactly, are we supposed to pay for this universal unearned wage you want to give out to everyone?
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HankB

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2015, 11:32:26 AM »
I am not arguing for an increase in minimum wage.  I am stating that it is premature to blame it for business closures in Seattle, for obvious reasons.
Not necessarily. If a business owner knows his cost will go up sharply as of a certain date - say, 3 months in the future - he may decide not to renew his lease for a longer term today. So maybe his business closes or relocates before the new wage scale hits.

When you see a problem coming, you don't normally wait for it to actually hit before you take action to mitigate its effects.

This is why I occasionally think there's some merit to a reverse income tax/basic income guarantee . . . you should have the same basic benefits we give prisoners - minimal housing, food, medical care, and education.  But if they're not in prison or other institution we can generally reduce that down to a simple monetary payment.
No.

In fact, <EXPLETIVE> no.

People do NOT have any right to the fruits of someone else's labor.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2015, 09:09:18 PM »
Yup

If i chose to give to someone or some group thats great.


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Hawkmoon

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2015, 09:22:47 PM »
The fact is that capitalist business cannot - and in fact is unable to - pay people less than what is perceived as the minimum necessary for survival. In other words, a de-facto 'minimum wage' always exist, and in a free market is always growing in the long-term.

This would be true in the U.S., except for a government policy that creates a situation in which every time a group (or class) or workers reaches the tipping point of getting a pay increase -- along come a few million more illegal aliens who are willing to work for a LOT less, because they rent one room to sleep six or ten people, and even at less than minimum wage (but working under the table, so tax-free) they have enough money to send back to wherever they came from.

Why do you think Western Union has a special money transfer form, called "Dinero en Minuto," printed entirely in Spanish and used only for sending money to Mexico?

Speaking of which, in addition to stealing jobs that Americans need, these illegal aliens are also stripping our economy, because instead of spending their earnings here they send the majority of the money back to some banana republic, to stimulate their economy.
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Andiron

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2015, 10:42:13 PM »
This would be true in the U.S., except for a government policy that creates a situation in which every time a group (or class) or workers reaches the tipping point of getting a pay increase -- along come a few million more illegal aliens who are willing to work for a LOT less, because they rent one room to sleep six or ten people, and even at less than minimum wage (but working under the table, so tax-free) they have enough money to send back to wherever they came from.

Why do you think Western Union has a special money transfer form, called "Dinero en Minuto," printed entirely in Spanish and used only for sending money to Mexico?

Speaking of which, in addition to stealing jobs that Americans need, these illegal aliens are also stripping our economy, because instead of spending their earnings here they send the majority of the money back to some banana republic, to stimulate their economy.

Statement of obvious fact;



Which doesn't negate the fact it's true.
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Ron

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2015, 11:07:20 PM »
Middle class wages are stagnate also.

Looking at the real inflation rate ie including fuel, energy and food and combining it with wage stagnation paints an ugly picture.

There are jobs with good benefits that help balance it out but the general consensus is we are still in a prolonged period of middle class wage stagnation.

The market is so deformed right now that upper class and upper "middle class" folks are are the only ones gaining ground over true inflation.

As much as I hate to say it, allowing the minimum wage to be raised by government fiat will force the market to re-adjust the wages of lower middle class folks up. Wages for the lower middle class are very much influenced by the current floor.

The government has so damaged the market with all its taxes, regulations and other assorted distortions that I'm ambivalent about raising the minimum wage. It's no better or worse than all the other shenanigans they perpetrate. 
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grampster

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2015, 11:36:57 PM »
1.  Where is it written that the government has any authority to require employers to pay a minimum wage?

2.  As for the "middle class", it is actually all of the Democrats and some RINO's who have diminished this group of Americans.  Tax policy and government regulations have destroyed good paying blue collar jobs.

It pisses me off no end when I hear those 2 thousand dollar suit, paint faced criminals bemoan the "destruction of the middle class" when they themselves are the perpetrators.
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cordex

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2015, 12:47:13 AM »
As much as I hate to say it, allowing the minimum wage to be raised by government fiat will force the market to re-adjust the wages of lower middle class folks up. Wages for the lower middle class are very much influenced by the current floor.
So ... as others have asked, if a little is good, why is a lot not better?  $50 an hour?   $150 an hour?  If that doesn't work, why would $15 an hour have the desired effect?

Either inflation chases the wage increase, or people don't work.

The government has so damaged the market with all its taxes, regulations and other assorted distortions that I'm ambivalent about raising the minimum wage. It's no better or worse than all the other shenanigans they perpetrate. 
As bad as existing gun laws are, I don't want more of them. Same deal here.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2015, 01:00:44 AM »
1.  Where is it written that the government has any authority to require employers to pay a minimum wage?



Well, you see, wages in one state affect commerce in other states...  ;/
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lupinus

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Re: Yay minimum wage!
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2015, 06:22:01 AM »
Middle class wages are stagnate also.

Looking at the real inflation rate ie including fuel, energy and food and combining it with wage stagnation paints an ugly picture.

There are jobs with good benefits that help balance it out but the general consensus is we are still in a prolonged period of middle class wage stagnation.

The market is so deformed right now that upper class and upper "middle class" folks are are the only ones gaining ground over true inflation.

As much as I hate to say it, allowing the minimum wage to be raised by government fiat will force the market to re-adjust the wages of lower middle class folks up. Wages for the lower middle class are very much influenced by the current floor.

The government has so damaged the market with all its taxes, regulations and other assorted distortions that I'm ambivalent about raising the minimum wage. It's no better or worse than all the other shenanigans they perpetrate. 
Problem with that is you assume businesses will adjust non-minimum wage workers pay up the same amount minimum wage was bumped. I'd bet good money most workers would be lucky to see half as much.
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