Author Topic: Kerry & the Troops  (Read 30829 times)

Ron

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #100 on: November 02, 2006, 02:50:40 PM »
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If you dish it out and can handle getting it back you will fit in around here.

Only the strong survive. The weak melt down.

apparently not.  rolleyes

Let me clarify my meaning. If you were a troll you would eventually melt down and show who you are.

If you are a sincere leftist then I suspect you will hang around and join the discussions around here.

Sorry if you feel anything I have said to you was an attack, that was not my intention. I enjoy debating leftists and don't believe in name calling usually. Zeke gets special treatment from me for dissing the troops. He seems to have taken it in stride, he is more of a man than John F Kerry, Kerry ran from what he said, Zeke didn't. What Kerry meant and what he said are two different things apparently.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #101 on: November 02, 2006, 03:05:12 PM »
I think that if you take an objective look at Kerry and his views towards the military, you'll find it awfully hard to convince yourself that Kerry's remark was the botched joke he now claims it was. 

I think that he slipped up for a moment.  I think the facade slipped away briefly, revealing who and what Kerry really is.  I read the transcript of the remarks when the flapp first started, and I think that Kerry meant what he said and said what he meant - it's just that he momentarily forgot that his true beliefs aren't meant for public consumption.

I further think that Kerry's notion that it was a botched joke was a carefully crafted smokescreen developed after the fact.  I think some of his PR guys took a hard look at what was said and done, and concluded the "botched joke" cover story would be their best bet for extracting Kerry's foot from his esophagus.  His insistence that this was a botched joke is as insincere as his professed love for the troops.


As for lumpy and trolldom...  Much of lumpy's speech and behavior has mimicked that which we've come to regard as troll-speak.  Right or wrong, he looks at first glance to be one of these trolls.  Specifically, his actions resemble those of a troll we had a while back who went by the name Blackburn.

The membership is understandably leery of these trolls, as our loose restrictions and lack of registration makes us an easy target.  So lumpy has no right to gripe about being labeled a troll.  Whether he is in fact a Blackburn-type troll or not doesn't matter - it's enough that he looks and acts like one. 

If you don't want to be called a duck, then you'd better not quack.

If you want to be respected as a member here, lumpy, you have to act like a member here.  That means toning down the rhetoric and name-calling.*  Ease into this community slowly, get involved in some of the other threads.  Quit trying to bash us over the head with your beliefs.  Go browse through the forums at democraticunderground.com and get a feel for what kind of dialog they engage in.  Then studiously avoid using that sort of speech and behavior here.  The ad hominems, personal attacks, one-liners, and shallow sound-bite arguments you find at DU are exactly what we do not tolerate here.

We expect and demand a higher grade of discourse here at APS.

*  I respect the fact that we've engaged in a fair bit of name-calling too.  Such is uncharacteristic for us, and we'll generally apologize if it turns out we're in the wrong.  If you establish yourself as a sincere new member, and not yet another troll, then you'll get your fair share of apologies.  Fair enough?

lumpy

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #102 on: November 02, 2006, 04:00:40 PM »
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Let me clarify my meaning. If you were a troll you would eventually melt down and show who you are.

If you are a sincere leftist then I suspect you will hang around and join the discussions around here.

thank you for the clarification. I'm old... and I'm not melted down yet (the glue factory still has the doors open though).

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The membership is understandably leery of these trolls, as our loose restrictions and lack of registration makes us an easy target.  So lumpy has no right to gripe about being labeled a troll.  Whether he is in fact a Blackburn-type troll or not doesn't matter - it's enough that he looks and acts like one. 

If you don't want to be called a duck, then you'd better not quack.

If you want to be respected as a member here, lumpy, you have to act like a member here.  That means toning down the rhetoric and name-calling.*  Ease into this community slowly, get involved in some of the other threads.  Quit trying to bash us over the head with your beliefs.  Go browse through the forums at democraticunderground.com and get a feel for what kind of dialog they engage in.  Then studiously avoid using that sort of speech and behavior here.  The ad hominems, personal attacks, one-liners, and shallow sound-bite arguments you find at DU are exactly what we do not tolerate here.

We expect and demand a higher grade of discourse here at APS.

I wasn't aware that disagreement constituted an attack. I'm certainly in favor of a higher grade of discourse. At the same time when you say "Quit trying to bash us over the head with your beliefs." you imply that you have this board so that you can come here and all discuss how awful anyone who to the left of your views is. I'm not trying to bash anyone with my beliefs... Simply to point out fact. If you don't want that ask me to leave this thread.

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*  I respect the fact that we've engaged in a fair bit of name-calling too.  Such is uncharacteristic for us, and we'll generally apologize if it turns out we're in the wrong.  If you establish yourself as a sincere new member, and not yet another troll, then you'll get your fair share of apologies.  Fair enough?

fair enough.

Oddly enough... this troll is off to the range to kill some paper.  smiley

Have a nice evening.

"I have tried to talk about the issues in this campaign... and this has sometimes been a lonely road, because I never meet anybody coming the other way."
Adlai E. Stevenson

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #103 on: November 02, 2006, 05:25:58 PM »
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I wasn't aware that disagreement constituted an attack.
Much of what you call disagreement comes off as antagonism.  You'll have to learn the distinction if you want to be welcomed here.

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I'm not trying to bash anyone with my beliefs... Simply to point out fact. If you don't want that ask me to leave this thread.
A goodly portion of what you've posted can't be considered fact.  Rhetoric and conjecture would be a more accurate description in most instances.  You've posted a lot of quick one-liners, which you expect us to accept as gospel truth.  Maybe there are some communities where such remarks can be passed off as legitimate fact or sound reasoning.  This isn't one of them.

We know the difference between fact, conjecture, logic, emotionalism, and sensationalism.  We know all about the various logical fallacies, like ad hominems, straw mans, non sequiturs, ad nauseums, and so forth, and we strive to not tolerate them.  We hold ourselves to a high standard of rational debate.  This is not DU.

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Oddly enough... this troll is off to the range to kill some paper.   smiley

Have a nice evening.
Innit a little late for a range trip?  It's 10:00 on the east cost, 7:00 on the west.  Anyway, enjoy.  Post pics of your best groups when you get back.  Tongue

We're overly prickly about trolls here, and with good reason.  If we've mischaracterized you, then we look forward to being proven wrong. 

Ciao, baby.

Guest

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #104 on: November 02, 2006, 05:45:38 PM »
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Now I'm not saying that I totally believe that he just screwed up a joke, just that it was my first reaction.

Consider for a moment the audience that he was talking to.

He was speaking to students, students who would soon graduate and face decisions about their careers. Would this joke make any sense at all for these regular everyday students if it was about the president?

Think about it, Kerry was telling these kids that if they screw up they will end up as a bad presidents? Does that joke even make any sense at all in that context?

In fact his little joke makes a lot more sense if one takes it to mean exactly what it says. Kerry has little respect for the members of the armed forces, he has demonstrated it time and again. In his mind it is a clear choice; at one end of the spectrum you have proffessional politicians, and at the other you have the sort of mouth breathers that make up the infantry, this is the world as he sees it.

Silver Bullet

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #105 on: November 02, 2006, 06:10:45 PM »
Kerrys attitude and value system are no surprise to those of us who have been watching the other side. Heres a letter published by a Wisconsin college student right after the bluenecks lost in 2004:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/07/blue_state_to_reds/

Here are a few quotes from the letter:

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Here in the Blue States, Democrats and Republicans alike generate the lion's share of America's wealth, although it is you Reds who provide the lion's share of the stoop labor. You are our Mexicans, so to speak.

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We do cocaine and smoke fine Canadian buds, not the homebrew crank and cheap Mexican headache reefer you guys are stuck with.

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President Kerry would have helped us to help you, which is all that we ask. It pains us to see you in wage slavery. It pains us to see you so ignorant and uneducated, and so eager to place yourselves in bondage. Yes, we live better; but we wish you to live better too, even if it means sacrifice on our part.

Dont read this on a full stomach.

Ezekiel

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #106 on: November 02, 2006, 06:17:54 PM »
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Zeke gets special treatment from me for dissing the troops. He seems to have taken it in stride, he is more of a man than John F Kerry, Kerry ran from what he said, Zeke didn't. What Kerry meant and what he said are two different things apparently.

You know, it's not too hard to take that as a compliment.

Truthfully?  I think most of our troops are mindless, uneducated, boot-camp brainwashed automatons who adhere to a ridiculous foreign policy, regardless of their intelligent observation, based upon outmoded concepts of honoring those who issued the order.  (Have you found the order givers to be terribly honorable in recent memory?)

That doesn't make me elitist, it makes me practical.

[sigh]  The infantry (and others) ARE "mouth breathers," if they continue to lie down, adhere to a code that has forgotton them, and acquiesce to a concept of leadership that has sold them out.  In sum, pawns.

The military is codified Socialism, and the final vestige for those who cannot hack Capitalism.

Folks who volunteer for such are even more lost: they actually think they're helping our needs.  Sad
Zeke

doczinn

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #107 on: November 02, 2006, 06:22:04 PM »
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I think most of our troops are mindless, uneducated, boot-camp brainwashed automatons...That doesn't make me elitist, it makes me practical.
No, it makes you igorant.
D. R. ZINN

Ezekiel

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #108 on: November 02, 2006, 06:23:52 PM »
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Did you happen to read any of Ezekiel's posts to this thread before you started casting aspersions on all of us?  I don't know his political affiliation, but I have heard and read many, many similar comments from leftists.  I.e., Pat Tillman was stupid to go into the military, etc.

I would certainly say that his death, from friendly fire was, essentially, meaningless.
Zeke

Ezekiel

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #109 on: November 02, 2006, 06:25:54 PM »
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I think most of our troops are mindless, uneducated, boot-camp brainwashed automatons...That doesn't make me elitist, it makes me practical.
No, it makes you igorant.

Not even close, friend.
Zeke

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #110 on: November 02, 2006, 06:27:08 PM »
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Did you happen to read any of Ezekiel's posts to this thread before you started casting aspersions on all of us?  I don't know his political affiliation, but I have heard and read many, many similar comments from leftists.  I.e., Pat Tillman was stupid to go into the military, etc.

I would certainly say that his death, from friendly fire was, essentially, meaningless.
You might have a point, if only it were possible to wage a war without friendly fire.

Ezekiel

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #111 on: November 02, 2006, 06:32:03 PM »
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Did you happen to read any of Ezekiel's posts to this thread before you started casting aspersions on all of us?  I don't know his political affiliation, but I have heard and read many, many similar comments from leftists.  I.e., Pat Tillman was stupid to go into the military, etc.

I would certainly say that his death, from friendly fire was, essentially, meaningless.
You might have a point, if only it were possible to wage a war without friendly fire.

Respectfully, that would be called "staying out of land wars in Asia."   sad

I'd quote The Princess Bride, except this has been true for eons.

Same theory for Vietnam, although this is not the same "war."
Zeke

doczinn

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #112 on: November 02, 2006, 06:35:23 PM »
Ezekiel, you're showing quite clearly that you know nothing at all about the military, or any of its members.

Military members either agree with the foreign policy or they don't. To you, if they disagree, they should desert, or mutiny. If they don't, they're morons. And if they agree, they're morons, because only morons could disagree with you. Is that about it?
D. R. ZINN

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #113 on: November 02, 2006, 06:37:49 PM »
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I think most of our troops are mindless, uneducated, boot-camp brainwashed automatons...That doesn't make me elitist, it makes me practical.
No, it makes you igorant.

Not even close, friend.
You and they are operating from a different set of premises.

Your premise appears to be that risking your own life for something greater than you is stupid and senseless.  It appears that you hold nothing else as being greater or more important than yourself.

All of the soldiers I know are soldiers because they take as their premise the fact that the United States of America is a great and noble thing, and well worth protecting.  They believe this so thoroughly that they're willing to place themselves into a position of somewhat increased personal risk, in exchange for ensuring that that great and noble thing is well protected. 

Both you and they are acting rationally, but based upon different motives.  You might be able to make a point that their motives are skewed, but not that they are behaving stupidly or impractically.  Simply put, they aren't.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #114 on: November 02, 2006, 06:38:49 PM »
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Did you happen to read any of Ezekiel's posts to this thread before you started casting aspersions on all of us?  I don't know his political affiliation, but I have heard and read many, many similar comments from leftists.  I.e., Pat Tillman was stupid to go into the military, etc.

I would certainly say that his death, from friendly fire was, essentially, meaningless.
You might have a point, if only it were possible to wage a war without friendly fire.

Respectfully, that would be called "staying out of land wars in Asia."   sad
Would that we could...

Ezekiel

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #115 on: November 02, 2006, 06:44:57 PM »
Ezekiel, you're showing quite clearly that you know nothing at all about the military, or any of its members.

I used to reside in Leavenworth, KS.  My focus group, retired or no, is not terribly impressive.  Further, the liquored up Captains I've spoken with who were attending the local "advanced" school were about as intelligent as seaweed.  I've seen the supposed "leading class."  They're morons.

Military members either agree with the foreign policy or they don't. To you, if they disagree, they should desert, or mutiny. If they don't, they're morons. And if they agree, they're morons, because only morons could disagree with you. Is that about it?

Excellently done twist!  Smiley

Yes, they're morons, I said it above.  I won't be gleeful at their Nationalist, uber-patriotic, short-sighted and naive failure: I'll just suffer from it, as will all Americans.

This job is BOTCHED.  It was a poor choice to begin with.
Zeke

Ezekiel

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #116 on: November 02, 2006, 06:46:33 PM »
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Your premise appears to be that risking your own life for something greater than you is stupid and senseless.

If it is done in a poorly strategized and ineffecient manner -- or is stupid to begin with -- "you bet."

Sorry.  Sad
Zeke

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #117 on: November 02, 2006, 06:48:39 PM »
Set aside your impressions of the current war for a moment.

Do you consider it stupid or foolish to place yourself at risk for something that truly is greater than yourself?

Dannyboy

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Kerry, the Manchurian Candidate
« Reply #118 on: November 02, 2006, 06:48:49 PM »
Just ran across this gem.

Why the Democrats should have told John Kerry: 'Don't mention the war'
Gerard Baker
In John Frankenheimer's original, electrifying 1962 thriller, The Manchurian Candidate, an American soldier is captured by communists during the Korean War, brainwashed and programmed to return to the United States and, years later, to assassinate a presidential candidate.

There is compelling evidence now that John Kerry is a kind of Manchurian Candidate of Democratic politics. It seems entirely possible that at some point in his career, he was seized by a youthful Karl Rove, brainwashed and programmed to kill off, at crucial moments in American history, the Democratic partys political prospects.

*
The clues were there all along, if wed only looked closely enough. His curious combination of self-satisfied superiority and baffled indecisiveness was obviously too contradictory a mental characteristic to be natural. His ponderous oratorical style and studied condescension suggested something artificial had interfered with the firing of the synapses.

But the plot worked brilliantly. In 2004, as the partys presidential candidate, Mr Kerry contrived to throw away a golden opportunity for a Democratic victory against an increasingly unpopular incumbent fighting an increasingly unpopular war.

Startlingly, this week, with the Democrats on the brink of their first clear victory in congressional elections for 14 years, the Manchurian Candidate seized a rare second chance to assassinate his party. Speaking to a crowd of students in California, Mr Kerry mused on the importance of education: If you make the most of it, if you study hard and you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you dont, you get stuck in Iraq.

Now it is entirely plausible that Mr Kerry did not mean to insult the intelligence and diligence of all who serve in the US military, and that he was merely bungling a rather predictable joke about President Bushs supposed intellectual shortcomings.

But the ambiguity of the remark, coupled with the Massachusetts senator having a bit of form when it comes to making demeaning remarks about American soldiers, was unfortunate to say the least. Whatever Americans think of the war in Iraq, they harbour a deep respect for their men and women in uniform. The clumsy gaffe clearly required an urgent clarification and an apology.

But the Republicans most effective secret weapon since Michael Dukakis put on an ill-fitting helmet in a TV commercial and lost an 18-point lead in the 1988 presidential election was not about to let the Democrats off the hook that lightly.

He initially wheedled, refusing to apologise, and rounded instead on his critics. In the process he managed to drag out a no-win story for the Democrats for an improbable two days of news cycles until eventually forced to issue a proper retraction.

Its still not clear how effective the latest Kerry intervention will be. The senator himself is not running for office in Tuesdays elections and so this time, Democrats felt free to walk quickly away from the wreckage of their former leaders self-destruction.

But the incident has shone a rare spotlight, in this critical midterm election campaign, on the Democratic Party. The reason it received so much attention, and so alarmed Democrats, is that it threatened to undermine the partys entire strategy for taking control of Congress.

Since the election battle was joined months ago, the Democratic approach has been to keep the attention on the Republican Party. As long as the election is about the unpopular President Bush and his fellow Republicans in congress, voters are inevitably much more likely to vote against them. When a party has dominated, as the Republicans have done for the past six years, the debate focuses on their shortcomings, which are not in short supply.

But elections also require voters to choose between alternatives, and Democrats have been extremely anxious not to talk about what they will do if they win on Tuesday. Other than a few old commitments to raising the minimum wage and re-examining tax cuts, there is no 2006 Democratic equivalent of the Contract with America that Republicans brought to Washington when they won control of Congress in 1994.

This is partly because the notoriously fractious Democrats cant really agree on much. On Iraq, the issue most likely to persuade voters to choose them, Democrat policies cover the entire spectrum of possible choices. Some want US troops out immediately. Others back Mr Bushs stay the course approach. Some of the partys foreign policy leaders back a plan to partition Iraq into three states. Others have described the idea as suicidal.

More generally on national security the party is split deeply. On the one hand a growing and vociferous band of radical progressives wants to reconnect with their inner peaceniks from the 1960s and join hands with European lefties in calling for an end to the abuses of American power. On the other, hawks such as Hillary Clinton have criticised Mr Bush at times for being too soft on Iran and contracting out US diplomacy to Europe.

Democrats are also unwilling to show their hand because it may scare the voters. They have moved sharply to the left since Bill Clintons new Democrats won in the 1990s. Anger and resentment at Mr Bushs brand of conservatism have curdled inside their party to a point where many of its activists no longer care about reaching the middle ground.

The partys leaders, such as Nancy Pelosi, who will become Speaker of the House is among the most left-wing of House Democrats. On economics, the party has abandoned Clintonian pragmatism for naked populism.

The glimpse of Democratic leadership afforded by Mr Kerrys intervention probably came too late to deprive the party of a majority in at least one and possibly both Houses of Congress next week. But as Democrats prepare the celebrations most of them know that their problems are just beginning.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,6-2435145,00.html
Oh, Lord, please let me be as sanctimonious and self-righteous as those around me, so that I may fit in.

Ezekiel

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #119 on: November 02, 2006, 06:51:00 PM »
Set aside your impressions of the current war for a moment.

Do you consider it stupid or foolish to place yourself at risk for something that truly is greater than yourself?

Excellent query, and I shall answer (you have my respect) with absolute honesty.

"Of course not."

But you're trying to set me up for the "if then, how then?' argument and I am not biting.  Smiley
Zeke

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #120 on: November 02, 2006, 06:56:16 PM »
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The partys leaders, such as Nancy Pelosi, who will become Speaker of the House is among the most left-wing of House Democrats. On economics, the party has abandoned Clintonian pragmatism for naked populism.
Speaking of Nancy Pelosi, where's she been for the past few weeks? 

You'd think that the woman poised to become our next House Speaker would be making public appearances at every available opportunity.  By rights, she should have her face plastered on every TV screen cost to cost, and her voice blathering from every radio nationwide.  Yet ol' Nancy has been downright shy, nay, antisocial for the past few weeks.  Hmm...

Whatever the Democratic leadership did to keep her hidden and quiet, it's working.  They should have also done it to Kerry.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #121 on: November 02, 2006, 06:57:04 PM »
Set aside your impressions of the current war for a moment.

Do you consider it stupid or foolish to place yourself at risk for something that truly is greater than yourself?

Excellent query, and I shall answer (you have my respect) with absolute honesty.

"Of course not."

But you're trying to set me up for the "if then, how then?' argument and I am not biting.  Smiley
Do you then assert that there is nothing worth risking yourself for?

I'm not trying to set you up for anything.  I'm genuinely curious, because I find it unusual that there would be nothing at all, ever, that you'd take a risk over.  I've never truly met a person like that.

doczinn

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #122 on: November 02, 2006, 06:59:56 PM »
Ezekiel, your self-description fits you perfectly.
D. R. ZINN

Ezekiel

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #123 on: November 02, 2006, 07:06:10 PM »
Set aside your impressions of the current war for a moment.

Do you consider it stupid or foolish to place yourself at risk for something that truly is greater than yourself?

Excellent query, and I shall answer (you have my respect) with absolute honesty.

"Of course not."

But you're trying to set me up for the "if then, how then?' argument and I am not biting.  Smiley
Do you then assert that there is nothing worth risking yourself for?

I'm not trying to set you up for anything.  I'm genuinely curious, because I find it unusual that there would be nothing at all, ever, that you'd take a risk over.  I've never truly met a person like that.

Certainly there are conditions where you and I would be arm-in-arm against ANYTHING.

Our ongoing cluster in Asia is, decidedly, not it.  That's akin to jumping into the North Atlantic after the Titanic because America believes manpower will save the ship.  It won't.  Failed strategy, clustered mission, asinine adherence.

In addition, mainstream America thinks doing so is idiotic.

Enough reasons yet?  Smiley
Zeke

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Re: Kerry & the Troops
« Reply #124 on: November 02, 2006, 07:07:00 PM »
Ezekiel, your self-description fits you perfectly.

I try not to hide, friend.  Smiley
Zeke