Evangelical churches address a new reality

[dogmush]

So stop renting out the church hall - which in my schema would not be a part of the tax-exempt church entity.

stay safe.

Not disagreeing with you at all, but IME with my Grandparent's and Aunt's smaller churches that loss of income (not renting out the hall) would put them under.

[shrug] It's not our job to keep every little po-dunk church afloat, but it's worth noting that this decision could, without much of a stretch, lead to Christian Churches having to close their doors.  Mostly due to the artificially sweet deal churches get from the .gov.

[cordex]

So we have gone from claiming that churches will absolutely not be legally pushed into performing weddings for homosexuals and that to suggest otherwise is a red herring to the idea that they will probably have to change how they operate and reduce their budgets if they want to be immune from being legally pushed into performing weddings for homosexuals?

[roo_ster]

So we have gone from claiming that churches will absolutely not be legally pushed into performing weddings for homosexuals and that to suggest otherwise is a red herring to the idea that they will probably have to change how they operate and reduce their budgets if they want to be immune from being legally pushed into performing weddings for homosexuals?

The law of merited impossibility.  As in what you are euggesting will never come to oass and when it does tou will deserve it.

[Hawkmoon]

Let the sinners in or die off?

Nope. That's a recipe for failure. Ask the Episcopal Church. They are losing membership and seeing parish churches close all over the country, while evangelical churches are flourishing.

My late wife and I attended an Episcopal church, for a variety of reasons we don't need to delve into. Yesterday, I read an interesting article on the topic of the decision and what it might mean for "orthodox" Christians. I thought the article might be of interest to the pastor, so I went to the church's web site to get her address. And what was I greeted with?

"Celebrate LGBT Pride Month"

I still wrote to the pastor. I asked her what happened to the church my mother grew up in and loved. My mother's mantra was, "Once an Episcopalian, always an Episcopalian." And I know my mother would not have approved of same-sex marriages, or homosexual clergy. It seems to me that the Episcopal Church, and a few other "mainstream" Protestant denominations, are firmly set on a course of self-destruction.

[Hawkmoon]

Roman Catholics consider marriage a sacrament.  Others, no.

The Episcopal Church (and, of course, the Anglican Church), yes.

[zxcvbob]

Nope. That's a recipe for failure. Ask the Episcopal Church. They are losing membership and seeing parish churches close all over the country, while evangelical churches are flourishing.

My late wife and I attended an Episcopal church, for a variety of reasons we don't need to delve into. Yesterday, I read an interesting article on the topic of the decision and what it might mean for "orthodox" Christians. I thought the article might be of interest to the pastor, so I went to the church's web site to get her address. And what was I greeted with?

"Celebrate LGBT Pride Month"

I still wrote to the pastor. I asked her what happened to the church my mother grew up in and loved. My mother's mantra was, "Once an Episcopalian, always an Episcopalian." And I know my mother would not have approved of same-sex marriages, or homosexual clergy. It seems to me that the Episcopal Church, and a few other "mainstream" Protestant denominations, are firmly set on a course of self-destruction.

I tried to figure out which episcopal church you were talking about, so I did a google search.  Looks like it's just about all of them (ECUSA, anyway.)

[Perd Hapley]

So is there a chance this new reality might include an end to the "oh the noez! theacracyz!" Chicken Little talk from the left? Or am I an optimist?

[makattak]

So is there a chance this new reality might include an end to the "oh the noez! patriarchyz!" Chicken Little talk from the left? Or am I an optimist?

 

[Perd Hapley]

Oh, shoot. I meant "theocracy." 

[KD5NRH]

So is there a chance this new reality might include an end to the "oh the noez! theacracyz!" Chicken Little talk from the left? Or am I an optimist?

I'm not even sure that rises to the level of optimism.  Sounds more like drug induced delirium to even consider the possibility.

[Perd Hapley]

I'm not even sure that rises to the level of optimism.  Sounds more like drug induced delirium to even consider the possibility.

I guess so. I must have been roofied. I forgot about the backward logic of the left, that makes the first black president's administration the time to blame every policy disagreement on racism. So I guess we'll have to hear more about teh theacrazy, to justify the persecution of the refuseniks.

[makattak]

I guess so. I must have been roofied. I forgot about the backward logic of the left, that makes the first black president's administration the time to blame every policy disagreement on racism. So I guess we'll have to hear more about teh theacrazy, to justify the persecution of the refuseniks.

I've been amused lately because the news media has been making a big point that evangelical Christians are 25% of the country.

Hey, doesn't that make us a minority? Aren't minorities automatically granted the moral authority over the majority, in liberal land?

[Perd Hapley]

I've been amused lately because the news media has been making a big point that evangelical Christians are 25% of the country.

Hey, doesn't that make us a minority? Aren't minorities automatically granted the moral authority over the majority, in liberal land?

It does if that minority is gaaaaaay. Gaaaaaay; the other 1%.

[zxcvbob]

Get ready for the new math:  10% of the population is gay.  25% of Americans self-identify as evangelical Christians.  Therefore, 40% of evangelicals are gay (.10/.25)  Maybe that's why we protest so much; we're in denial...

[Firethorn]

Get ready for the new math:  10% of the population is gay.  25% of Americans self-identify as evangelical Christians.  Therefore, 40% of evangelicals are gay (.10/.25)  Maybe that's why we protest so much; we're in denial...

Nah, I save that accusation for anti-gay people who get creepy with it and do things like set up camps to 'reform' gays while obsessively looking at gay porn on their computers and whatnot. 

In short - it's one thing if you make a comment about gays when it comes up on the news or whatever.  It's a different matter when you're constantly bringing it up no matter what's going on in the news, or introducing new anti-gay legislation all the time*, etc...

*Such as Oklahoma considering ending marriage licenses completely.

[Perd Hapley]

Are you saying that for states to quit issuing marriage licenses is anti-gay?

[Tallpine]

Oklahoma considering ending marriage licenses completely.

Sounds like a good idea to me 

There might be a silver lining after all, if most of the states decided to "shrug" marriage licensing.

[vaskidmark]

Are you saying that for states to quit issuing marriage licenses is anti-gay?

It brings up the "prove you are ...." discussion.  Which will immediately be countered with the "I identify as ...." discussion.

Marriage licenses seem to be most important in settling questions of distribution of assets when the marriage ends, as opposed to going with the common law/domestic partner folderol the courts have made up over the years.

stay safe.

[Tallpine]

Marriage licenses seem to be most important in settling questions of distribution of assets when the marriage ends, as opposed to going with the common law/domestic partner folderol the courts have made up over the years.

The divorce courts are going to be a riot in a few years 

[Hutch]

So we have gone from claiming that churches will absolutely not be legally pushed into performing weddings for homosexuals and that to suggest otherwise is a red herring to the idea that they will probably have to change how they operate and reduce their budgets if they want to be immune from being legally pushed into performing weddings for homosexuals?

If you like your religion, you can keep your religion, period.

Which means "If I like your religion, you can keep your religion.  Maybe."

[zxcvbob]

IMHO, the problem is the churches have been performing marriages for centuries, and the government came along and said "this civil union thing is a good idea" and created its own similar institution and also called it a marriage, but it's not the same thing.  It further confused the issue by having ministers sign civil marriage licenses.

The govt has its rule for what it calls a marriage and various churches have their rules, and they are all kind of similar.

If you want your union to be the blessed by the church, goto a minister.  If you want your union blessed by the state, goto a justice of the peace -- or just shack-up and call yourself a common-law marriage.  That should be good enough.  I think Tallpine said something similar to this last part in one of these threads.

[grampster]

Why don't we all declare to be homosexual?  Then we won't be a minority anymore and thus not be given "special treatment".  Then we can partner up with everybody and all be married to each other.  Wait, why doesn't Obamacare require that we all be gay and get it over with....unless we don't work over 30 hours a week or belong to a union or whatever other business was exempted from Obamacare.  But then if we're all gay, there won't need to be any exemption.  Wait, wait, we could just print some more money and pay off all the debt and everything will be freeeeeee and we can have just one church for everybody because we're all the same.

 

[De Selby]

IMHO, the problem is the churches have been performing marriages for centuries, and the government came along and said "this civil union thing is a good idea" and created its own similar institution and also called it a marriage, but it's not the same thing.  It further confused the issue by having ministers sign civil marriage licenses.

The govt has its rule for what it calls a marriage and various churches have their rules, and they are all kind of similar.

If you want your union to be the blessed by the church, goto a minister.  If you want your union blessed by the state, goto a justice of the peace -- or just shack-up and call yourself a common-law marriage.  That should be good enough.  I think Tallpine said something similar to this last part in one of these threads.

So what happens if you just go to a church, but then your wife ends up in a coma and you want to make decisions about her treatment that are different from what her parents want? 

Marriage is an inherently legal creature, even though the relationships underneath it aren't.

[Ron]

Apparently churches are tax exempt regardless of 501c3 status.

Filing for 501c3 status is actually just like inviting the government into your marriage relationship. It gives them authority they otherwise wouldn't have.

From what I've read churches weren't commonly incorporated at all until the late 60's early 70's.

I think it is time for some good ol' separation of church and state.

A good place to start is getting churches out from under the yoke of corporate law.  
  

[zxcvbob]

So what happens if you just go to a church, but then your wife ends up in a coma and you want to make decisions about her treatment that are different from what her parents want? 

Then you better have the appropriate power of attorney or advance directive.  Or got your marriage license signed by a judge.  Even if its an either/or thing, clergy can perform marriages and not sign the license.