I have stumbled on an answer - of sorts

[Scout26]

Wasn't so much BS as it was just gaping holes in what was taught.  The emphasis had been on playing up the roles of women and minorities to the point that the major actors (Lincoln, Lee, Grant, Sherman) were diminished to sideshow roles.

I didn't expect him to give me a dissertation on why MG O.O. Howard's defense of Cemetery Hill was more important then Chamberlain's defense of Little Round Top.  But he should have at least known that battle was considered the turning point of the Civil War (Though I contend the turning point was when Jackson was mortally wounded at Chancellorsville.)

Anyway that's why we travel.

[230RN]

Well, it doesn't really matter, since we beat the Germans and Japanese in the Civil War, and now they're our allies anyhow.

[Scout26]

Well, it doesn't really matter, since we beat the Germans and Japanese in the Civil War, and now they're our allies anyhow.

John Belushi went to the same schools that Robert is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vtWB4owdE

[Strings]

I have had this argument with one of my BACA brothers many times (he just got his Spec Ed cert)

My stance is to liken the current education system to an engine with a cracked block. We keep changing parts (pistons, rings, spark plugs, carbs, you name it). We swap one part out for another, then swap again before the new part has even had a chance to break in a bit. And at the end of the day, the thing still has a cracked block

The system needs to be scrapped, and rebuilt from the ground up. But we aren't willing to put in the work

[makattak]

I have had this argument with one of my BACA brothers many times (he just got his Spec Ed cert)

My stance is to liken the current education system to an engine with a cracked block. We keep changing parts (pistons, rings, spark plugs, carbs, you name it). We swap one part out for another, then swap again before the new part has even had a chance to break in a bit. And at the end of the day, the thing still has a cracked block

The system needs to be scrapped, and rebuilt from the ground up. But we aren't willing to put in the work

It's not* that we aren't willing to put in the work, it's that entrenched interests are strongly opposed to making such a change.

(*Maybe I should say "not just", but in any case, I think the entrenched interests are stronger than the amount of work required.)

[BlueStarLizzard]

I have had this argument with one of my BACA brothers many times (he just got his Spec Ed cert)

My stance is to liken the current education system to an engine with a cracked block. We keep changing parts (pistons, rings, spark plugs, carbs, you name it). We swap one part out for another, then swap again before the new part has even had a chance to break in a bit. And at the end of the day, the thing still has a cracked block

The system needs to be scrapped, and rebuilt from the ground up. But we aren't willing to put in the work

This. So much this.

Grade school should be straight up three R's and basic life skills (no reason a 5th grader shouldn't be able to do basic cooking, cleaning and whatnot. Split school in two sections. Put 6th back in elementary and add 7th in as well. 8th up should be split off, collage track and vocational track with collage track being the minority. Both sides should have mandatory life skills classes, home ec, basic shop, financial basics, real health classes that cover first aid, actual simple medical issues everyone gets and OTC drugs (seriously, I know more about illigal drugs that I'll never use than half of what's on the shelf at CVS, some of which I'm now finding out would have made my life much nicer HAD I KNOWN)
By the time a kid hits 18 there is no reason they shouldn't be fully functional in adult society.

No passing a year without passing the year. No more forced attendance. No more bullshit time wasted busy work classes. If we, as a society, are going to wearhouse everyone's kid, we can at least put the time to good use.

[Boomhauer]

I have had this argument with one of my BACA brothers many times (he just got his Spec Ed cert)

My stance is to liken the current education system to an engine with a cracked block. We keep changing parts (pistons, rings, spark plugs, carbs, you name it). We swap one part out for another, then swap again before the new part has even had a chance to break in a bit. And at the end of the day, the thing still has a cracked block

The system needs to be scrapped, and rebuilt from the ground up. But we aren't willing to put in the work

My sister, who is an educator in training, thinks the solution is to throw more money at a broken system.  :facepalm

More money? REALLY, MORE MONEY? She also thinks that throwing more money at this *expletive deleted*ed up non-educational system will lessen crime because "we wouldn't have so many murderers if they had a decent education. 

Life in the educational system is all she has known, though, from K-12 to high school. She has little real world experience.

[Firethorn]

Grade school should be straight up three R's and basic life skills (no reason a 5th grader shouldn't be able to do basic cooking, cleaning and whatnot. Split school in two sections.

I'm with you for the most part, though do you consider things like History as part of the three R's?  Civics should be in there as well, if you're voting you should know what you're really voting for.  Though what you cover in history is a big hot-button topic.  You can't possibly cover everything, even if you just concentrate on US history.

I'd add a 'safety' course - gun safety, safe sex, safe driving, chemical safety, first aid, etc...

And yes, you don't pass the grade without scoring high enough.

Well, short of those so retarded that they would never realistically pass the materials and it's best to just give them a 'modified' diploma.

[Boomhauer]

Though what you cover in history is a big hot-button topic.  You can't possibly cover everything, even if you just concentrate on US history.

Hitting the high points would be good, not just "civil rights and women's rights" like it is now.

Remember the thing about education is it's supposed to hit the basics and you are ideally supposed to be encouraged to learn more on your own. I always enjoyed history and science so I had no trouble diving deep into that on my own, plus I liked general reading so I got a lot of literature exposure and grammar practice in too.

The problem with schools nowadays is they don't want to really expose you to what is out there and let you learn on your own. It's all about teaching to a standardized test that is the measure of success, and the same mentality trickles down to the classroom level with tests. The system doesn't give a *expletive deleted*it if you actually learn or not so long as you score well enough to make the schools look good. On the other hand, a true teacher, given a free hand to do so, has the gift to create a totally immersive course where you actually learn, have fun do it, and want to learn. If you want people to learn, you need more of that and less of the crap that we get now.

I'm going through much the same thing as I did in HS for this second time I am back in college. The head of the program I am in favors extremely hard tests that are all about memorization. We aren't learning the material like we need to learn it, only learning enough to pass the test and the class.

[vaskidmark]

.

Well, short of those so retarded that they would never realistically pass the materials and it's best to just give them a 'modified' diploma.

No.  A thousand times no.  Somewhere between 7th and 10th grade they need to be culled and put into training programs.  Not just tailgunner on the garbage truck or mop/broom pusher - although there will be some for whom that is the highest they will achieve.  And it's not just the mentally/cognitively challenged (calling someone "retarded" is such an aggression) but those that just do not care to follow the academic or the trades tracks.  If "Do you want fries with that?" is the highest they want to go/can go, let's get them out there around 14 or 15 years old rather than artificially damping down the unemployment rate by keeping them warehoused.

And while we are at it, teacher pay gets cut by 1/3rd and "bonuses" are available based on the percentage of students who pass the class.  Not some standardized Common Core test.  Something like the final exams given back in the mid to late 1800s or similar.  http://macombhistory.us/adl/SixthGradeFinalExam.pdf

stay safe.

[Boomhauer]

teacher pay gets cut by 1/3rd and "bonuses" are available based on the percentage of students who pass the class.

Actually I have no problems paying teachers more if they are actual skilled teachers vs. morons who shouldn't be anywhere near a classroom.

A good teacher who can actually teach is worth a good bit. Some of the finest teachers I have ever had are those who never set out to be career teachers, but instead wound up in the classroom after retirement from their specialty. More of those kinds need to be recruited, paid well for their experience, and let loose to spread their knowledge and skills.

[Tallpine]

By the time a kid hits 18 there is no reason they shouldn't be fully functional in adult society.

Assuming the goal of the school system was to produce functional adults 

[BlueStarLizzard]

I'm with you for the most part, though do you consider things like History as part of the three R's?  Civics should be in there as well, if you're voting you should know what you're really voting for.  Though what you cover in history is a big hot-button topic.  You can't possibly cover everything, even if you just concentrate on US history.

I'd add a 'safety' course - gun safety, safe sex, safe driving, chemical safety, first aid, etc...

And yes, you don't pass the grade without scoring high enough.

Well, short of those so retarded that they would never realistically pass the materials and it's best to just give them a 'modified' diploma.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Yes, that includes history, literature and other subjects in the humanities.
I don't think reading and writing can really be taught without those subjects. In order to read, you need something to read and to write, you must have something to write about. Basically, I see it as two birds with one stone. There is nothing more effective to train a person to think and rationally approach a subject like some intense eassy writing. Being able to outline points and organize thoughts requires a person to think about the subject they are writing about.

IMHO, a big factor in lack of thinking is the move away from testing with short and long essay/long answers and to testing with multiple choice and standardized testing.

I also didn't mention science, but that's one that should also be stressed. Basic biology, earth science, physics and chemistry are not that difficult. I think one thing in HS that loses a lot of kids in these subjects is they go into stuff that the average person will never need to know. The stress should be on the scientific method and stuff that actually comes up everyday. One that kicks me is that physics (which is more applicable in daily life) is the "hard" class that's optional, where as chemistry (which, based on my HS class) has much less daily applications. The focus is on application in a lab setting rather than general knowledge and daily application which loses a lot of students who would otherwise not only do well in the subjects but actually can use the subjects. Plus, I think Earth Science should get more stress.

[BlueStarLizzard]

No.  A thousand times no.  Somewhere between 7th and 10th grade they need to be culled and put into training programs.  Not just tailgunner on the garbage truck or mop/broom pusher - although there will be some for whom that is the highest they will achieve.  And it's not just the mentally/cognitively challenged (calling someone "retarded" is such an aggression) but those that just do not care to follow the academic or the trades tracks.  If "Do you want fries with that?" is the highest they want to go/can go, let's get them out there around 14 or 15 years old rather than artificially damping down the unemployment rate by keeping them warehoused.

And while we are at it, teacher pay gets cut by 1/3rd and "bonuses" are available based on the percentage of students who pass the class.  Not some standardized Common Core test.  Something like the final exams given back in the mid to late 1800s or similar.  http://macombhistory.us/adl/SixthGradeFinalExam.pdf

stay safe

I have no issue going there. None what so ever.

My only add on would be more accessible adult education programs and a GED program that is actually considered equal to the HS diploma (which it is not)

It irks me to no end that screwing up in HS brands a person for life, even after they've proved willing and able to educate themselves and move up in the world. These kinds of people should be considered more valuable to the workforce, not as eternal *expletive deleted*ck ups for decisions they made when they were in their teens.

[RoadKingLarry]

The number of "well educated" people I meet who, while probably OK in their narrow specialty, but are otherwise blithering fuking idiots, is daunting.

A fellow sailor at my marina is a practicing psychiatrist of some sorts. Pleasant enough to talk to, fairly articulate on mundane matters but otherwise a walking and floating disaster area. My first encounter with him was when he detonated the outboard on his boat. The yells of FIRE! FIRE! brought me running with an extinguisher. His slip neighbor had already put it put out.  Seems he had ask the marina to fix his engine. The mechanic was in the process of rebuilding his carb, they don't like sitting all winter with ethanol in them. He knew the carb was off the engine, he figured it would be OK for just a short run.
The guy has managed to be dimasted 3 times, been involved in 4 minor collisions been aground 4-5 times requiring a tow and has had 2 fires.
His nickname is Anvil Bob, because you just can't beat anything into him.

[Perd Hapley]

Lizzard, when I ascend to the Oval Office, you'll be my SecEd.

A guy I know is going through some program to help him get his GED (which is no longer called that, at least in my state). In order to make sure they got all the information and training they really needed, they brought in a rainbowtolerancediversity guest speaker.


Edit: Well, I've had a Rick Perry moment. I forgot I was planning to disband the D of Ed. Sorry, Liz.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Lizzard, when I ascend to the Oval Office, you'll be my SecEd.

A guy I know is going through some program to help him get his GED (which is no longer called that, at least in my state). In order to make sure they got all the information and training they really needed, they brought in someone to give them a rainbowtolerancediversity guest speaker.


Edit: Well, I've had a Rick Perry moment. I forgot I was planning to disband the D of Ed. Sorry, Liz.

Are you sure? Because I could probably make this work a lot cheaper than the current system and still pay good salary to the teachers.
There is no good reason the vocational school couldn't be at least nearly self sustaining. No need for janitorial staff since I'd use the Japanese method and have the kids do the cleaning. Vocational school would also cover the maintenance, and possible the school lunches in all educational facilities. Plow anything left over into the arts and  athletics.
Plus, a major emphasis on community funding. Hell, each year the kids would have one mini class for organizing fundraising efforts for their school. Nothing more educational than putting in the work to pay for what you are getting.

Just modify the child labor laws a bit and I could really get this to work.

[vaskidmark]

No need to modify the child labor laws.  It's covered under "training" and the other fees are recovery of costs for providing the training and expanding opportunities for training.

It really does not matter which Cabinet you stick me in, but you need a pet career bureaucrat who understands how to use the system against itself.  I could be talked out of retirement as a Dollar A Year man if you agree to cover my expenses.

stay safe.