Author Topic: There Is No Middle Ground  (Read 7560 times)


makattak

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2015, 11:28:48 AM »
I noted that the press makes a BIG DEAL that the lion was "beheaded"!!1!

And my only thought was if I'm getting a lion trophy, it better include the head.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

brimic

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2015, 11:34:22 AM »
The only thing the dentist did wrong was go to mugabestan and trust people there.
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makattak

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2015, 12:01:55 PM »
I often explain to my Sunday School classes that one of the early complaints about Christians was "They are turning the world upside down!"*

They were exactly right. Christianity is almost completely opposite the fallen nature of man. So, when a people (and a nation) prefers their fallen nature, it is, of course, turning the world back "upside down."

It's also how we often seem to be speaking a different language.


*(I would note that Christianity was actually turning an upside down world back rightside up, but of course one who grew up in the upside down world thinks it's now upside down.)
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

230RN

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2015, 01:03:58 PM »

Hence the expression, "It's a turvey-topsey world."

Oh, wait.  Did I get that right?
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SADShooter

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2015, 01:24:04 PM »
Hence the expression, "It's a turvey-topsey world."

Oh, wait.  Did I get that right?

What difference, at this point, does it make?
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2015, 02:35:20 PM »
The only thing the dentist did wrong was go to mugabestan and trust people there.


Meh. You have to be pretty oblivious to think that baiting a lion to come out of a wildlife preserve is a good idea.
Reading between the lines of the liberal mass hysteria versions of the story, it sounds like this dentist may have been a little on the shady side himself when it came to bagging his prize. Something about getting in trouble while bear hunting in the states was mentioned.

There always is that idiot that has to ruin a good thing for everyone else. The chick from, what? last year, now she was a good poster child for trophy hunting in Africa being a good thing.
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makattak

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2015, 02:38:36 PM »
Meh. You have to be pretty oblivious to think that baiting a lion to come out of a wildlife preserve is a good idea.
Reading between the lines of the liberal mass hysteria versions of the story, it sounds like this dentist may have been a little on the shady side himself when it came to bagging his prize. Something about getting in trouble while bear hunting in the states was mentioned.

There always is that idiot that has to ruin a good thing for everyone else. The chick from, what? last year, now she was a good poster child for trophy hunting in Africa being a good thing.

On the baiting point, all I've seen is reports that "he baited him to come out of the preserve" and no evidence one way or another as to how that happened. 

I'm somewhat guessing the hunter who came into the country only for this hunt hadn't spent time tracking this lion's movements to know when and how to bait him out. IF any baiting was done, I'm guessing it was the locals.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2015, 02:44:12 PM »
On the baiting point, all I've seen is reports that "he baited him to come out of the preserve" and no evidence one way or another as to how that happened.  

I'm somewhat guessing the hunter who came into the country only for this hunt hadn't spent time tracking this lion's movements to know when and how to bait him out. IF any baiting was done, I'm guessing it was the locals.

They tied a dead something or other to the hood of their jeep and unless they went the long way around so he wouldn't see they were on the edge of the park, he probably knew approximately where they were.
The reports I heard said they tracked the lion on the park and than lured him out.
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roo_ster

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2015, 03:25:44 PM »
Meh. You have to be pretty oblivious to think that baiting a lion to come out of a wildlife preserve is a good idea.
Reading between the lines of the liberal mass hysteria versions of the story, it sounds like this dentist may have been a little on the shady side himself when it came to bagging his prize. Something about getting in trouble while bear hunting in the states was mentioned.

There always is that idiot that has to ruin a good thing for everyone else. The chick from, what? last year, now she was a good poster child for trophy hunting in Africa being a good thing.

Moving to Texas has pretty much disabused me of any huffiness I used to have over hunting methods.  "They hunt deer...with dogs!?"  "They hunt whatever_critter...at night?!"  [Runs for fainting couch.]  I was brought up in a different state with different standards of hunting behavior.

They just plain do things differently here, no apologies to the hyperventilating non-Texas Fudds.

My own personal hunting ethics have been pared down to roughly the following:
1. Learn & follow local laws and practices.
2. Leave my huff on my doorstep as I leave home.
3. Get after it.

Getting back to The Great Lion Slaughter of 2015, hunting over bait was a common occurrence in all the safari books I read.  Capstick & Rourke come to mind.  Most common was hunting over bait for leopard.  If hunting lion over bait is not a big whoop in Bungastan or wherever The Lion Saint cashed in his chips, not sure that hunting a lion that does not respect boundaries(1) over bait is any worse.



(1)Texas Property Boundary Quiz:
You start on land you know is private property on which you have permission to hunt.

1. You eventually come a place where bright yellow paint has been applied to the fence posts supporting a 4-wire barbed wire fence.  Are you at a property line or not?

2. You eventually come a place where faded purple paint has been applied to the tree trunks here & there.  Are you at a property line or not?

The point of the quiz is not about Texas standards for marking property boundaries, but that property boundaries may not be obvious and even if obvious, they may not be understood by a non-local.  I suspect African standards for property demarcation might be even less rigorous than those in Texas.
Regards,

roo_ster

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wmenorr67

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2015, 03:40:03 PM »
The issue with the lion hunter is he has a felony record for doing dishonest hunting practices in the past.

I think he moved a bear from one place to another to claim a "legal" kill.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2015, 03:51:05 PM »
The issue with the lion hunter is he has a felony record for doing dishonest hunting practices in the past.

I think he moved a bear from one place to another to claim a "legal" kill.

Exactly. Which makes me think that he knew rules where getting broken and he just didn't care.

Rooster, it's not the fact that he was hunting over bait that makes me question his hunting ethics. It's that he's breaking the hunting laws where he is hunting. Or at least knew that he was on they very dark side of a shade of grey.

Personally, I think hunting over bait seems a little shady, but I don't hunt, so I have no real opinion on the subject one way or another. *shrug*

For what it's worth, I support hunting as a food source and a sport and I think responcible hunters do more for conservation than Mother Earth worshiping idiots.
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T.O.M.

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2015, 04:02:11 PM »
A co-worker, an admitted liberal and pretty darned anti-gun for a retired Marine, said this, which I thought was pretty accurate...

The guy paid $35,000 to go hunting for lion in a country where that much money is probably several years worth of income for most people.  Doesn't that make anyone else think that paying that much meant that he wanted a lion head on his wall, no questions asked?

I agree, he may not have knowingly engaged in an illegal hunt, but he damned sure didn't make certain it was legal.
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brimic

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2015, 04:08:18 PM »
A co-worker, an admitted liberal and pretty darned anti-gun for a retired Marine, said this, which I thought was pretty accurate...

The guy paid $35,000 to go hunting for lion in a country where that much money is probably several years worth of income for most people.  Doesn't that make anyone else think that paying that much meant that he wanted a lion head on his wall, no questions asked?

I agree, he may not have knowingly engaged in an illegal hunt, but he damned sure didn't make certain it was legal.

$35,000 is probably about what a lion tag costs. edit: it's close http://www.africanskyhunting.co.za/pricelist.html
He probably relied on the local guides or PHs who are supposed to know what is legal and what is not.
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Ben

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2015, 04:12:49 PM »

He probably relied on the local guides or PHs who are supposed to know what is legal and what is not.

Yes. Regardless of if he'd done anything illegal in the past, it appears the country with jurisdiction is going after the PH and land owner, and is stating the hunter is not responsible. Interestingly, a US congressional rep has launched an investigation and is looking to (figuratively) hang the hunter.
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brimic

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2015, 04:14:13 PM »
At any rate, the OP post stands correct- people are more willing to nitpick and condemn a person for killing an animal than a group of people selling baby parts.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

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HankB

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2015, 07:00:26 PM »
On the baiting point, all I've seen is reports that "he baited him to come out of the preserve" and no evidence one way or another as to how that happened.  

I'm somewhat guessing the hunter who came into the country only for this hunt hadn't spent time tracking this lion's movements to know when and how to bait him out. IF any baiting was done, I'm guessing it was the locals.
Most lions ARE taken over bait. Typically a bait animal is shot, and dragged behind the vehicle to leave a scent trail. The remainder of the bait carcass is then suspended in a tree at a reasonable height so a lion can rear up and feed, without getting TOO high to make feeding too strenuous. The carcass will usually be covered by brush to keep vultures off.

Now, hunting is FREQUENTLY done along park borders. Lions do a LOT of roaming, and eventually, locals will "pattern" them and be able to guess approximately where they'll be. (Give or take a few miles and a few days.) Laying a scent trail and bait - or, usually, several baits - in the general area outside the park's border is SOP. Once the lion finds a bait and keeps feeding, the bait may be "topped off" and a blind will be built nearby so as to give the hunter a good shot at the lion when he's on the bait. Hopefully, he'll come to the bait before shooting light disappears (spotlighting isn't allowed most places) or, failing that, he won't leave before daybreak.

Usually, a game scout accompanies the hunting party . . . to keep violations from occurring. And there are strict quotas on the number of lions that may be taken each year from each area.

Now, unless the scent trail was laid  inside the park, or the actual shooting took place with a spotlight after dark, it's really not clear to me from the story how any game hunting violation occurred unless the professional hunters were themselves operating illegally in that hunting block . . . or, it being Mugabestan, maybe they're just trying to retroactively write & apply some arcane new rule.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 08:22:58 AM by HankB »
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LadySmith

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2015, 08:37:30 AM »
At any rate, the OP post stands correct- people are more willing to nitpick and condemn a person for killing an animal than a group of people selling baby parts.

That's because #Black (maned) Lives Matter.

But seriously, I think it's a matter of simplicity. He's a white, wealthy, unethical "hunter" with a shady past who destroyed a popular family-oriented lion who wasn't bothering anybody. Bad guy vs. innocent animal = instant outrage.
Planned Parenthood is a faceless organization that does something that may/may not be illegal in order to help themselves/help others via research using murdered babies/unwanted tissue and...and...(if the confusion, moral muddle & horror start to be too much)...OMG!!!Some scumbag killed that poor lion!!!!
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brimic

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2015, 09:00:58 AM »
That's because #Black (maned) Lives Matter.

But seriously, I think it's a matter of simplicity. He's a white, wealthy, unethical "hunter" with a shady past who destroyed a popular family-oriented lion who wasn't bothering anybody. Bad guy vs. innocent animal = instant outrage.
Planned Parenthood is a faceless organization that does something that may/may not be illegal in order to help themselves/help others via research using murdered babies/unwanted tissue and...and...(if the confusion, moral muddle & horror start to be too much)...OMG!!!Some scumbag killed that poor lion!!!!

The speed and frequency of horrible news stories and scandals these days makes it hard to latch on to any story and maintain an outrage over it.  I'm not sure that this isn't by design.
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MechAg94

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2015, 11:17:16 AM »
The funny part is all these people getting bent over this lion getting killed then going out for chicken or hamburgers.  They are certainly selective about what animals deserve protection.

I did read a book about one Game Guide in Zimbabwe (before hunting was outlawed).  He talked about baiting leopard like that.  However, he said he personally did not care for hunting predators because they were generally not expecting to be hunted.  I think that was his personal view though and didn't stop him from taking customers out to hunt predators.
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brimic

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2015, 11:34:02 AM »
The funny part is all these people getting bent over this lion getting killed then going out for chicken or hamburgers.  They are certainly selective about what animals deserve protection.

I did read a book about one Game Guide in Zimbabwe (before hunting was outlawed).  He talked about baiting leopard like that.  However, he said he personally did not care for hunting predators because they were generally not expecting to be hunted.  I think that was his personal view though and didn't stop him from taking customers out to hunt predators.

When I took a wildlife biology class a few decades ago, they had a term to describe animals that got the most attention: 'Charismatic Megafauna.'
Public support or outrage over a whale, a Lion, an eagle, or an elephant will be massive in comparison to their actual importance to an ecosystem.

Predators don't expect to be hunted? Poor argument- many predators, especially lions, are hunted and killed by their own species.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB81Q3_Xs64
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wmenorr67

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2015, 01:08:48 PM »
Didn't God say we were to rule over all animals?

There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2015, 03:03:25 PM »
When I took a wildlife biology class a few decades ago, they had a term to describe animals that got the most attention: 'Charismatic Megafauna.'
Public support or outrage over a whale, a Lion, an eagle, or an elephant will be massive in comparison to their actual importance to an ecosystem.

Predators don't expect to be hunted? Poor argument- many predators, especially lions, are hunted and killed by their own species.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB81Q3_Xs64

Meanwhile the honey bees keep dying and if they all kick it, we're screwed. BUT SAVE THE WHALES!!!
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brimic

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2015, 03:07:51 PM »
Meanwhile the honey bees keep dying and if they all kick it, we're screwed. BUT SAVE THE WHALES!!!

Bees are a lot more important than whales in the grand scheme of things!
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Ben

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Re: There Is No Middle Ground
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2015, 03:59:26 PM »
When I took a wildlife biology class a few decades ago, they had a term to describe animals that got the most attention: 'Charismatic Megafauna.'


Very popular term in the fed.gov. Wanna get funding? Stick a whale picture on the front cover of your proposal. I on the other hand, always called them bioclutter.
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