Santorum Goes Down: Is That Bad?

[The Rabbi]

So Ric Santorum got defeated by Casey, who is described as "anti abortion, anti gun control."  Was it really a bad thing?

[Perd Hapley]

What are you on?

[Waitone]

As I understand PA politics, Santorum is paying the price for supporting Specter.  Santorum's base is PO'd and they took it out on him.  I don't think his support of hot button positions had a lot to so with it.  It is not necessarily bad that he is out of the senate.  It is often quite helpful to be riding a horse when a train wreck occurs.  I will predict the Great Unwashed's disgust with congress will be of olympian proportions come 08.  Santorum can make use of it since he will be out on his ear.  Outside congress he will be free to speak his mind without fear of upsetting a marginalized president or irritating fellow senators".

[Perd Hapley]

And potential Dem control of the Senate doesn't bother you two?

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

You don't honestly believe this new guy's campaign promises, do you?

If the Dem party gains either house, you can count on them forcing ALL of their new members to vote the party line.  That means gun control, higher taxes, defeat in Iraq, and all the rest.

 

Looks like DeWine and Chafee got the boot, too.  I won't miss any of these cowards, but I'm sure I'll loath their replacements.

[Guest]

And potential Dem control of the Senate doesn't bother you two?

No more than any other party running the show. We got the shaft from the republicans for a long time, maybe it would feel different (not better) from a different direction for awhile.

That means gun control, higher taxes, defeat in Iraq, and all the rest.

The repuiblicans havent exactly cut a swath through existing gun control laws, or faught too hard to lower taxes, and we cant talk about defeat in Iraq untill we can define what "victory" is.

[grampster]

Sadly, we get the government we deserve.  The best we can hope for is that in the next 2 years the electorate will see just what it is that they have elected. 
   

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

That means gun control, higher taxes, defeat in Iraq, and all the rest.

The repuiblicans havent exactly cut a swath through existing gun control laws, or faught too hard to lower taxes, and we cant talk about defeat in Iraq untill we can define what "victory" is.

Okee dokee...

Republicans are responsible for the death of the AWB.  Republican leadership of the committees in each house are responsible for the utter lack of new gun control measures.  Maybe they haven't repealed NFA or GCA, but c'mon, let's be realistic.  Those aren't going anywhere for a very, very long time.

Republicans, and in particular G W Bush, have fought hard to lower taxes.  They've succeeded.  Income tax, capitol gains tax, inheritance tax - all lowered.  Tax breaks for families with children were increased.  We can now expect that progress to be lost.

Victory in Iraq is a self-supporting democracy that isn't hostile to the US.  We've made significant progress.  The Democrats will work hard to undermine the efforts to ensure that that goal is never met.

[The Rabbi]

I was happy to see Lincoln Chafee get the boot.  Hopefully that RINO's political career is over.
I'll also be interested to see whether Lieberman still sides with the Dems after they screwed him and left him to die.

[280plus]

|Sigh...

Still stuck with Lieberman here...

 

[AJ Dual]

The upshot is that if it's going to happen, I'd rather have it happen now, than one fell swoop in '08.

The "shot across the bow" factor for both the Republicans and the electorate at large could be benificial in the long run.

There is a small minority of liberal pundits out there who were being honest with themselves and taking note of the "If this is what it takes to win, in the long run we're screwed." factor. And wondering even if the Democrats take the House, it may be a "win the battle, lose the war" scenario.

The Left still has some serious demographic, financing, and districting challenges to overcome in the long haul.

Also, many Democrats have or will win by running pretty hard to the center-right. It'll obviously not wash out that well should the Democrat leadership squeeze them, however, that will dilute their victory a bit.

[Guest]

Republicans are responsible for the death of the AWB.

Actually you can thank the NRA for getting the sunset clause placed into that bill, that is the only reason we dont still have the AWB, its one thing to refrain from voting in favor of gun control, a whole different ball of wax to actually vote gainst it.

Republican leadership of the committees in each house are responsible for the utter lack of new gun control measures.

Prove it.

Maybe they haven't repealed NFA or GCA, but c'mon, let's be realistic.  Those aren't going anywhere for a very, very long time.

A) Why arent they going away despite *complete* control over the entire law-making apparatus of this country by the supposedly pro-gun GOP?

B)There are a lot of little measures that they could easily have taken care of without going against these. How about various portions of .922? Did they even *try* to do anythign about current restrictions on the RKBA? no.

Victory in Iraq is a self-supporting democracy that isn't hostile to the US.  We've made significant progress.  The Democrats will work hard to undermine the efforts to ensure that that goal is never met.

So "Nation Building" at the end of a rifle is OK again, now that Clinton is out of office?

As far as taxes, you might be right. I know my taxes havent been effected, but then again I only occupy the same bracket as most voters in this country, so it doesnt matter.

[roo_ster]

c_yeager:

If you don't know what Tom Delay did the last few years to help promote RKBA/derail anti-RKBA legislation, you really ought to pay more attention.

Delay was one of the best supporters of RKBA in the House...and he had the clout to cut anti-RKBA bills off at the knees. 

Tell me again what sort of record Pelosi has on the RKBA?

Rabbi:

Losing Santorum is a bad thing for Pennsylvania & the nation. He was a traditionally-minded guy who was about as good as you'll find in politics on the COTUS.  Of course, the left and their Randroid auxiliaries savaged him.  I judge men not only on their friends, but also their enemies.

Casey will be an embarassment to the state of Pennsylvania, makr my words.  A regular Patty Murray.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

It was the Republican minority back in '94 that forced the Democrats to include the sunset clause in their AWB.  Yeah, the NRA helped, mainly by supporting Republicans who demanded the sunset provision.

The elimination of the AWB represents the first time in our nation's history that gun control measures have actually decreased.  If you think the Republican majority in Congress wasn't responsible for this remarkable achievement, then you're flat out wrong.

GCA and NFA and the sealed machine gun registry aren't going away for one simple reason - the country wants it that way.  Regardless of how reprehensible these laws are, they are what we as a nation collectively want.  As they say, we get the government we deserve. 

Don't think the Republicans smothered any attempt by the leftists at enacting new gun control?  Name one gun control bill that the R's let out of committee.

Nation building is a good thing if you're responsible for destroying the nation you're trying to build.  Destroying a nation is a good thing if that nation represents an apparent threat to our lives and liberties, as Saddam's Iraq did.  Our security required us to break it, our decency requires us to rebuild it into something better.

There was no compelling reason for Clinton to send the military into Haiti, Somalia, or Eastern Europe.

[Guest]

If you don't know what Tom Delay did the last few years to help promote RKBA/derail anti-RKBA legislation, you really ought to pay more attention.

Yeah he has been great, no doubt about that, and despite the fact that his party has complete control he still hasnt been able to hammer through any of his planned repeals of existing gun control. Even with a majority control and a guy like Delay we are still stuck with a government that has little interest in improving anything.

The elimination of the AWB represents the first time in our nation's history that gun control measures have actually decreased.  If you think the Republican majority in Congress wasn't responsible for this remarkable achievement, then you're flat out wrong.

Your flat out wrong, in 1997 a legal challenge significantly lessened the impact of the Brady Bill ( Printz v. United States ).

Additionally the entirety of the 1990 Gun-Free School Zones Act was ruled unconstitutional in 1995 ( United States v. Lopez )

Maybe it was the first time that an act of gun controll was lessened by the action of congress. Oh wait, it wasnt lessened by an act of congress, it just failed to be renewed, so I guess that milestone has yet to be crossed.

Don't think the Republicans smothered any attempt by the leftists at enacting new gun control?  Name one gun control bill that the R's let out of committee.

Name one that went into commitee.

Nation building is a good thing if you're responsible for destroying the nation you're trying to build.  Destroying a nation is a good thing if that nation represents an apparent threat to our lives and liberties, as Saddam's Iraq did.  Our security required us to break it, our decency requires us to rebuild it into something better.

Ahhh, so now Iraq was involved in 9/11? Are we singing that old song again?

[caseydog]

Santorum said : I'm with President Bush on issues 98% of the time , Bushes approval rating is ~39% , Santorums vote percentage :40% , coincidence ?  I think not

an interesting (long) essay on how Bobby Casey came to be their man: http://mysite.verizon.net/lardil/id451.html

Ray

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Ahhh, so now Iraq was involved in 9/11? Are we singing that old song again?

I've never said that Iraq was behind 9-11.  I've never needed to.  The war in Iraq is about eliminating the threat Saddam's regime presented to the US.

We've been around and around on this one in the past, so I think I'll sit it out this time.

As for gun control, you're free to believe your sweeping repeals stand a better chance with a Democrat congress.  You're also free to believe in the tooth fairy.  Knock yourself out.

[Guest]

I've never said that Iraq was behind 9-11.  I've never needed to.  The war in Iraq is about eliminating the threat Saddam's regime presented to the US.

Oh OK, so it was those WMDs then.

We've been around and around on this one in the past, so I think I'll sit it out this time.

I dont believe that you and me have ever spoken about Iraq, I typically avoid the topic, and untill recently supported it for the most part.

As for gun control, you're free to believe your sweeping repeals stand a better chance with a Democrat congress.

They stand a better chance with a republican party that understands it can loose its power if it doesnt actually do something to make people want them in office.

[Perd Hapley]

c_yeager, stop hallucinating about Dem.'s doing anything positive on gun control.  Unless you count doing nothing, in which case you cede HTG's point about the AWB.

And you are too smart to be saying stuff like, "so now Iraq was involved in 9/11? Are we singing that old song again?"  That's for narrow-minded leftists who think that war is only about revenge, and think that pre-emption is a recent invention.

[Vodka7]

Thanks for the article Caseydog.

Speaking as an under-25 Philadelphian, though, a lot of us would have voted for Mayor McCheese if we thought he'd beat Santorum.  Of course, when I was out at the polls, I didn't actually *see* a lot of under-25 Philadelphians.

[Perd Hapley]

What do you young whipper-snappers have against Santorum?

[Vodka7]

Fistful:  his stance on gay marriage and abortion.  Casey is also anti-abortion, but like I hinted at early, his main attraction--especially voters like myself who think sending half a message is better than no message at all--is that he's not Santorum.  I don't ever want to have a president who's anti-abortion, and Santorum seemed like he could have been heading in that direction.

[The Rabbi]

If you don't know what Tom Delay did the last few years to help promote RKBA/derail anti-RKBA legislation, you really ought to pay more attention.

Yeah he has been great, no doubt about that, and despite the fact that his party has complete control he still hasnt been able to hammer through any of his planned repeals of existing gun control. Even with a majority control and a guy like Delay we are still stuck with a government that has little interest in improving anything.

The elimination of the AWB represents the first time in our nation's history that gun control measures have actually decreased.  If you think the Republican majority in Congress wasn't responsible for this remarkable achievement, then you're flat out wrong.

Your flat out wrong, in 1997 a legal challenge significantly lessened the impact of the Brady Bill ( Printz v. United States ).

Additionally the entirety of the 1990 Gun-Free School Zones Act was ruled unconstitutional in 1995 ( United States v. Lopez )

Maybe it was the first time that an act of gun controll was lessened by the action of congress. Oh wait, it wasnt lessened by an act of congress, it just failed to be renewed, so I guess that milestone has yet to be crossed.

Don't think the Republicans smothered any attempt by the leftists at enacting new gun control?  Name one gun control bill that the R's let out of committee.

Name one that went into commitee.

Nation building is a good thing if you're responsible for destroying the nation you're trying to build.  Destroying a nation is a good thing if that nation represents an apparent threat to our lives and liberties, as Saddam's Iraq did.  Our security required us to break it, our decency requires us to rebuild it into something better.

Ahhh, so now Iraq was involved in 9/11? Are we singing that old song again?

The Republicans pushed through the Lawful Commerce in Firearms Act, te first time I am aware of that they took on trial lawyers succesfully.  That was probably the biggest thing for us since virtually every gun maker was going to be bankrupted eventually by legal bills.
There were moves and there were bills to extend the AWB and they all failed.  I'd count that as a success.  Under a Democratic Congress I am sure they would have been extended.
On Iraq we have all kinds of good reasons to rebuild that country.  Unless you'd like to see a Taliban-style dictatorship emerge.
On the full auto registry, the Headless One is right, again.  Most people just plain dont care about it.
While the media are portraying this as a sweeping Democratic victory (of course) I dont think so.  Republicans still hold the Senate and there wont be any new legislation worth anything for two years.  The worst RINOs have been ousted and we wont have them to kick around anymore.  Maybe the GOP will reflect on its roots and what it made it succesful and go back to that.

[Guest]

c_yeager, stop hallucinating about Dem.'s doing anything positive on gun control.

Hallucinating is seeing something that doesnt exist, so why dont you go ahead and quote where I said the Democrats would do anything positive about gun control? Go ahead, try to make a point without having to put your own flawed arguments into my mouth.

That's for narrow-minded leftists who think that war is only about revenge, and think that pre-emption is a recent invention.

Wanna give me a list of occassions were we have pre-emptively invaded nations that werent actively attacking us, our protectorats, or allies?

Off the top of my head I get Somalia and Bosnia. Hey look, I just made a short list of this single greatest screwups in American foreign policy history, why dont you add to it for me.

Rabbi:

The Republicans pushed through the Lawful Commerce in Firearms Act, te first time I am aware of that they took on trial lawyers succesfully. That was probably the biggest thing for us since virtually every gun maker was going to be bankrupted eventually by legal bills.

A) prove your bolded premise.
B) we are talking about gun control here, this is a circumspect protection AT BEST, at worse its simply trading one right for another, a game that we tend to lose at.

On Iraq we have all kinds of good reasons to rebuild that country.  Unless you'd like to see a Taliban-style dictatorship emerge.

Why are we not "rebuilding" all the other countries with Taliban-style dictatorships? Justifying our actions in Iraq because of "rebuilding" is a pretty hollow argument when you consider that we are the ones who managed to blow up large sections of it in the first place.

On the full auto registry, the Headless One is right, again.  Most people just plain dont care about it.

I care about it, you care about it, and HTG cares about it, along with most people who are likely to be reading this post. Shouldnt we be voting based on issues that we care about?

While the media are portraying this as a sweeping Democratic victory (of course) I dont think so.  Republicans still hold the Senate and there wont be any new legislation worth anything for two years.

I agree, and I think it is the best possible outcome from this ellection, I am quite pleased.

Maybe the GOP will reflect on its roots and what it made it succesful and go back to that.

My thoughts exactly.

[The Rabbi]

Wanna give me a list of occassions were we have pre-emptively invaded nations that werent actively attacking us, our protectorats, or allies?

Off the top of my head I get Somalia and Bosnia. Hey look, I just made a short list of this single greatest screwups in American foreign policy history, why dont you add to it for me.

Um how about: Cuba, Philippines, Vera Cruz, Mexico, Haiti, China.  That's just off the top of my head.

Rabbi:

The Republicans pushed through the Lawful Commerce in Firearms Act, te first time I am aware of that they took on trial lawyers succesfully. That was probably the biggest thing for us since virtually every gun maker was going to be bankrupted eventually by legal bills.

A) prove your bolded premise.
B) we are talking about gun control here, this is a circumspect protection AT BEST, at worse its simply trading one right for another, a game that we tend to lose at.

I don't need to prove the sky is blue either. 

On Iraq we have all kinds of good reasons to rebuild that country.  Unless you'd like to see a Taliban-style dictatorship emerge.

Why are we not "rebuilding" all the other countries with Taliban-style dictatorships? Justifying our actions in Iraq because of "rebuilding" is a pretty hollow argument when you consider that we are the ones who managed to blow up large sections of it in the first place.

I think you just answered the question.  We took out the dictatorship in Iraq and are now helping to rebuild the country as something like a democracy.  We failed to do that in Afghanistan and we got the Taliban.

On the full auto registry, the Headless One is right, again.  Most people just plain dont care about it.

I care about it, you care about it, and HTG cares about it, along with most people who are likely to be reading this post. Shouldnt we be voting based on issues that we care about?

You just named about 60% of the people who care about it.  That was the point.