Who wants to be an airline pilot?

[Fly320s]

The time is good right now.  Nearly every airline is hiring and most of the smaller carriers are having difficulty hiring qualified pilots.

Republic Airlines, a regional carrier for Delta, American, and United, filed Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection because they were so short on pilots that they had to cancel hundreds of flights and park dozens of aircraft.  Republic has been one of the better regional airlines to work for the last many years.

Great Lakes, a crappy bottom feeder regional, has removed seats from their aircraft so they can hire lower time pilots to fly as First Officers.  They fly Beech 1900s that have 19 seats.  Current regulations require FOs to have 1500 hours and a ATP license to fly that plane, but with only 9 seats installed, a pilot only needs a Commercial license, acquired at 250 hours, to fly as a FO.

Cape Air, which flies 8 seat Cessna 402s in Boston and elsewhere, is actually hiring First Officers now just so those pilots will be able to build flight hours quickly and become Captains quickly.  Typically, those 402s are flown single-pilot; no second pilot is required.

Four to six years from now will see hundreds to thousands of airline pilots retire.

And if all that wasn't enough, it seems like pilots are dropping like flies due to medical issues.  We had two pilots taken away by ambulance just this weekend while I was in recurrent training.  Crazy stuff.

[wmenorr67]

As with most careers the time, effort, and money to become a pilot keeps most kids away from the profession.

Going to be shortages in a lot of careers before long, driving up wages of those careers and then the costs associated with them.

[Balog]

I'd love to get into it professionally, but I've reached a point in my career where the loss in earnings between what I make now and what even the most lucrative professions start at is prohibitive. Too bad, it'd be a lot of fun.

[Firethorn]

As with most careers the time, effort, and money to become a pilot keeps most kids away from the profession.

To be fair, there's been a few changes over the years.  It's just plain harder to become a pilot today.  They used to not require so many hours.  The physical requirements were a bit easier.  You had a much larger military spitting out qualified pilots.

Going to be shortages in a lot of careers before long, driving up wages of those careers and then the costs associated with them.

As this can be blamed on the businesses running high on the hog and not keeping up their apprenticeship and training programs, I can't say I'm all that sympathetic for them.

Fly, is it still true that the regionals pay nearly minimum wage, once you figure in the whole 'We only pay while the doors are closed' policy, making flight checks and such unpaid?

The shortage can probably be largely attributed to that.  Flight training is expensive, and people who can pass it have better options today.  You simply don't have the population of ex-military pilots compared with expansions on the civil side.

[wmenorr67]

I'm at an age it would take me too long to get anywhere in the profession for it to pay off.

Is there a mandatory retirement age with some if not all of the major airlines, if not FAA mandated?

[wmenorr67]

To be fair, there's been a few changes over the years.  It's just plain harder to become a pilot today.  They used to not require so many hours.  The physical requirements were a bit easier.  You had a much larger military spitting out qualified pilots.

As this can be blamed on the businesses running high on the hog and not keeping up their apprenticeship and training programs, I can't say I'm all that sympathetic for them.

Fly, is it still true that the regionals pay nearly minimum wage, once you figure in the whole 'We only pay while the doors are closed' policy, making flight checks and such unpaid?

The shortage can probably be largely attributed to that.  Flight training is expensive, and people who can pass it have better options today.  You simply don't have the population of ex-military pilots compared with expansions on the civil side.

Son of a woman here at work went to work for a doctor here in Oklahoma flying for him and was making more money than classmates that went to work for the airlines.  He is now moved to another company and still making more money than most if not all of his contemporizes.

[KD5NRH]

So if we fit the aircraft out with drone packages, can we have one captain running 10-20 flights, and put only a Flight Engineer in the cockpit just in case?  I mean, really, his only truly critical flying skill would be finding the closest suitable airport and landing safely there when something goes wrong with the control link.  Ideally, the FE wouldn't even be graded on hours, but x number of touch-and-go and y number of true full stop landings, demonstration of nav skills and ability to perform basic in-flight diagnostics, repairs and contingency workarounds.  (Mostly reset tripped breakers, manually deploy landing gear if needed, etc.)

Actually, the more I think about it, the more feasible that sounds for the twin-prop jobs that are a heck of a lot easier to land in sims at least.  I know I found it a lot easier to land a real C172 than any sim mostly because I could feel ground effect and had peripheral vision tracking the runway right under the plane and objects being passed for a true VFR gauge of speed, altitude, attitude, etc. to literally reality check the timing of the approach and flare.  I don't see any way that could be as easy in something with only relatively small, mostly, front-facing, high-placed windows...especially when the pilot is still way the heck up in the air as the main gear touches down.

[Jamisjockey]

So if we fit the aircraft out with drone packages, can we have one captain running 10-20 flights, and put only a Flight Engineer in the cockpit just in case?  I mean, really, his only truly critical flying skill would be finding the closest suitable airport and landing safely there when something goes wrong with the control link.  Ideally, the FE wouldn't even be graded on hours, but x number of touch-and-go and y number of true full stop landings, demonstration of nav skills and ability to perform basic in-flight diagnostics, repairs and contingency workarounds.  (Mostly reset tripped breakers, manually deploy landing gear if needed, etc.)

Actually, the more I think about it, the more feasible that sounds for the twin-prop jobs that are a heck of a lot easier to land in sims at least.  I know I found it a lot easier to land a real C172 than any sim mostly because I could feel ground effect and had peripheral vision tracking the runway right under the plane and objects being passed for a true VFR gauge of speed, altitude, attitude, etc. to literally reality check the timing of the approach and flare.  I don't see any way that could be as easy in something with only relatively small, mostly, front-facing, high-placed windows...especially when the pilot is still way the heck up in the air as the main gear touches down.

We're decades from commercial aviation being automated.  Even if someone came up with a completely feasible package mixing automated commercial flight with ATC tomorrow, it'd take decades for the FAA to actually study and approve it.

[Firethorn]

We're decades from commercial aviation being automated.  Even if someone came up with a completely feasible package mixing automated commercial flight with ATC tomorrow, it'd take decades for the FAA to actually study and approve it.

Not to mention convincing passengers to fly on a plane captained by somebody with 'no skin in the game'.  Though I'm not sure how much of a factor that would be - make the drone plane $5 cheaper for the flight and you'd have takers.

Especially if self driving cars have come out and you have a generation that grew up on them.  If little Johnny grew up having the family car pick him up after school and take him home before leaving to pick up mom/dad, he's probably not going to have a beef with an automated plane.

[KD5NRH]

Not to mention convincing passengers to fly on a plane captained by somebody with 'no skin in the game'.

Hence the real live guy in the cockpit with the skills and authority to take over and land the plane if need be.  His butt is on the line and his eyes are directly on the actual conditions, which makes for an interesting division of authority, but workable.

[Fly320s]

Fly, is it still true that the regionals pay nearly minimum wage, once you figure in the whole 'We only pay while the doors are closed' policy, making flight checks and such unpaid?

It was true until recently.  Starting regional pay is pushing $50k, according to the grapevine.  I haven't verified that.

[Fly320s]

I'm at an age it would take me too long to get anywhere in the profession for it to pay off.

Is there a mandatory retirement age with some if not all of the major airlines, if not FAA mandated?

FAA mandatory airline retirement age is 65.  FAA controllers have to retire earlier, maybe 55.  Jamisjockey knows.

[Fly320s]

Hence the real live guy in the cockpit with the skills and authority to take over and land the plane if need be.  His butt is on the line and his eyes are directly on the actual conditions, which makes for an interesting division of authority, but workable.

The old joke is that some day automated cockpits will have one pilot and one dog.  The pilot's job is to feed the dog.  The dog's job is to bite the pilot if he touches anything.

[wmenorr67]

FAA mandatory airline retirement age is 65.  FAA controllers have to retire earlier, maybe 55.  Jamisjockey knows.

Just saw that it is 56.

[Hawkmoon]

As with most careers the time, effort, and money to become a pilot keeps most kids away from the profession.

Going to be shortages in a lot of careers before long, driving up wages of those careers and then the costs associated with them.

No problem. Marco will just sign an executive order authorizing more H1B visas.

[dogmush]

It's like that all over. Kids don't want to start a trade and work up.  They want to go to college, get a four year degree, and then work at Starbucks.

The Army school I'm in right now qualifies you for, among other things, a 500GT Masters Merchant Mariner Credential.  We've had MSC, and three large shipping company recruiters come in and talk to the class about getting out of the Army and going to sea with them, or what the Active guys can do after their 20 years.  No one wants to go to sea, and while you can pick up third worlders for Able Seaman and/or Wipers, it's very hard for them to make the jump to officer.  Subsequently it's become very hard to find enough Officers to run the ships that move stuff around.

Much like I expect airline ticket costs will continue to ratchet up as less people take the jobs needed to fly the planes, EVERYTHING will get more expensive when you have to pay the people that move it twice as much.  I don't know what Boom's making, but I know that my cost for side work fixing my friends cars is up to $80/hr + parts. Less then that and it's not worth me wasting a weekend. That's still like half what a dealer charges.  I had ONE friend of a friend cry about it, and as I showed him the door I mentioned he was welcome to buy $20k worth of tools and spend 15 years learning about engines and fix it his damn self.

Mike Rowe is right, we are going to be screwed, or inundated with illegals, if we don't start teaching American kids how to work.

[KD5NRH]

It's like that all over. Kids don't want to start a trade and work up.  They want to go to college, get a four year degree, and then work at Starbucks.

Interestingly, probably 80% of the richest people I've known over the years got there by learning a trade and then investing well - either smart real estate, stocks, or starting and selling businesses in the trade they knew.  Some of them went to college after they started on their fortune, to learn to manage it better, but several still didn't go beyond HS or 1-2 years of college taking mostly business classes.

[AJ Dual]

It's like that all over. Kids don't want to start a trade and work up.  They want to go to college, get a four year degree, and then work at Starbucks.

The Army school I'm in right now qualifies you for, among other things, a 500GT Masters Merchant Mariner Credential.  We've had MSC, and three large shipping company recruiters come in and talk to the class about getting out of the Army and going to sea with them, or what the Active guys can do after their 20 years.  No one wants to go to sea, and while you can pick up third worlders for Able Seaman and/or Wipers, it's very hard for them to make the jump to officer.  Subsequently it's become very hard to find enough Officers to run the ships that move stuff around.

Much like I expect airline ticket costs will continue to ratchet up as less people take the jobs needed to fly the planes, EVERYTHING will get more expensive when you have to pay the people that move it twice as much.  I don't know what Boom's making, but I know that my cost for side work fixing my friends cars is up to $80/hr + parts. Less then that and it's not worth me wasting a weekend. That's still like half what a dealer charges.  I had ONE friend of a friend cry about it, and as I showed him the door I mentioned he was welcome to buy $20k worth of tools and spend 15 years learning about engines and fix it his damn self.

Mike Rowe is right, we are going to be screwed, or inundated with illegals, if we don't start teaching American kids how to work.

Hell, if you've got any tech acumen, you can quit college and be working in entry-level IT making almost double what starting ATP with a regional, and sleep in your own bed every night. Considering the parade of weirdos we've been interviewing just as temps/contractors that look like they're extras from an Adams Family movie, there's plenty of the $20/hr on up jobs going unfilled. If your skill level is lower, but your somewhat fashionable, with good soft skills, you'll beat out a much more experienced freak.

Assuming pilot time limits etc. equal a 2080 work hours/year... that's just a shade over $10/hr. 

And if it's a good market with decent pay, you'll be making closer to what a pilot working with one of the national major airlines.  There's simply no way the economics of this job will work out, unless you love flying that much.

[dogmush]

$50k is just a tic over $24/hr.

[Fly320s]

$50k is just a tic over $24/hr.

Based on a 40 hour work week?

Pilots are limited to 1,000 hours of flight time per year and they get paid by the flight hour.  So, that equals $50/hour if they work 1,000 flight hours.  In reality we fly fewer hours, but are at work a few more hours than we actually fly.  I fly closer to 800 hours but I'll get paid closer to 900.  I typically work 10 hours to get paid 8.

Anyway, the per hour breakdown isn't a good comparison because it varies so much.  But the overall schedule is good.  For instance, in March, I work 12 days and get paid 84.5 hours.  A new regional pilot will work about the same hours, but do it over 16 to 18 days.  Seniority matters.   

[Fitz]

Interesting stuff... But I think I'll keep aviation as a hobby

although I do plan to work towards my A&P as an "exit strategy" from the IT world someday

[Jamisjockey]

FAA mandatory airline retirement age is 65.  FAA controllers have to retire earlier, maybe 55.  Jamisjockey knows.

56

[KD5NRH]

If your skill level is lower, but your somewhat fashionable, with good soft skills, you'll beat out a much more experienced freak.

I can vouch for this.  A $50 investment at the barbershop and Goodwill pays huge dividends when you're looking for decent jobs.  From the other side of the desk, I've bounced plenty of resumes back to HR as "don't bother" when the candidates showed up for a tech job interview looking like they were on the way to a heavy metal concert.

[Boomhauer]

If the starting pay is really 50k that's a huge change it was half that a few years ago.

[Firethorn]

If the starting pay is really 50k that's a huge change it was half that a few years ago.

Maybe it's my libertarian ideals talking, but I don't really give a hoot.  Fact is, flying is a highly skilled position that requires a lot of certification.  I would have a hard time becoming a pilot(my eyes suck, for one). 

As Fly mentions, there's some shenanigans with how pilot pay is calculated than what normal people are used to with hourly pay.  Indeed, as he mentions, he can get more flight hours(longer flights, presumably), than a newer pilot that's going to be used more for short hops and weird schedules that make him work more hours for the same number of paid hours.

At one point there was an excess of pilots, allowing the regionals to pay crap because the goal wasn't to work for a regional, it was to collect the flight hours necessary to move up to the actual airlines.

But with fewer military pilots out there, and ever increasing requirements to become a new trained pilot rated to take passengers, there is no longer a glut.  Presumably students will eventually notice this and eventually start signing up to flight schools in increasing numbers, because the starting pay no longer requires living in mom's basement for half a decade before you get the 'good job' and start earning actual pay.

I'd argue that it's not that students aren't willing to work, much less 'want' to work at starbucks.  It's just that, well, which would you do:  Work at starbucks for $10/hour+tips, or spend even more money to get a pilot's license and earn $20k/year and no tips?  A good starbucks coffee maker who rakes in the tips can earn over $40k/year.