Author Topic: Socialist ends by capitalist means  (Read 8904 times)

MillCreek

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2016, 11:08:51 AM »
I was under the impression that most of Canada's immigrants were Asians... how have very little in common with the immigrants we get from south of the boarder.  Is this correct?

Not exactly on point, but living in Seattle, I am exposed to the local news of the Vancouver BC area.  It is my impression that in recent years, much of the immigration to Vancouver is affluent Asians, especially from Hong Kong, the Peoples' Republic and South Korea.  I know that you get expedited immigration to Canada or residential status if you bring X number of dollars into Canada with you, and I think that figure is at least $ 500,000.
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Pb

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2016, 11:12:26 AM »
Yep, I was right- Canada's immigration is overwhelmingly Asians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Canada#Sources_of_immigration

Is it not relevant that importing Asians- typically the groups that have very low murder rates, poverty, divorce, and illegitimacy- produce vastly different results than America's immigrants- where are geared towards the exact opposite of these characteristics???

TommyGunn

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2016, 12:35:19 PM »
Quote from: DeSelby
Quote from: TommyGunn
Huh?  The flaw is that "they're expensive because they're mostly designed with corporations and social businesses in mind, not recipients."  THAT'S what you're really saying.
Does this include the British public Healthcare too -- because even that system winds up balancing the books at the expense of the patients, especially those who live farther outside London.  
And I have never seen any proof that they're cheaper, just your gratuitous assertion.

http://cepr.net/blogs/cepr-blog/life-expectancy-and-u-s-health-care-spending-an-international-comparison

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/download/8115071e.pdf?expires=1467353671&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=E5F7895F9BD8F06DAA59DA24B80B66B9


Quote
The United States continues to spend much more on health per capita than all other

OECD countries, but is not in the top group in terms of the number of doctors or nurses per

population.




Quote
In 2013, the United States continued to outspend all other

OECD countries by a wide margin, with the equivalent of

USD 8 713 for each US resident (Figure 9.1). This level of

health spending is two-and-a-half times the average of all

OECD countries (USD 3 453) and nearly 40% higher than the

next biggest spender, Switzerland (adjusted for the different

purchasing powers – see “Definition and comparability”

box). Compared with some other G7 countries, the United

States spends around twice as much on health care per

person as Germany, Canada and France.

DeSelby, I never trust statistics gathered in other countries as compared to either America ... or even between those countries.  Different countries have different methods of gathering stats and correlating them.
One example I've heard recently was in Japan, police investigators delving into a "murder/suicide" in which one person has, say, killed three people and then offed himself, will chalk it down as four suicides.  This may mean that while the Japanese can understand the stats (though I question that) the cumulative result is relatively meaningless when compared to U.S. stats.
And so on for medical stats.   It is noted fact for example that in some countries, babies that survive birth  but die shortly after are called "stillborn," while in America only those who are, indeed, born dead, are still born.
This also is an example of how countries' different methods of gathering stats can skew realities.

So please forgive me if I an unimpressed by long lists of articles and links to stats telling me how superior the world is to America.  I don't believe anything I hear ...and only 50% of what I read.


I will say one thing, from family experience; in the mid 1980s my parents, and my maternal grandmother, spent three years living in southern Scotland, where both my father and grandmother had need of medical services in the government-provided healthcare system.
Let me get the one truly positive thing I will say about their medicine out of the way first:  My grandmother at the time was in her late 80s to early 90s, and had been prescribed a whole boatload of medicines by her American doctor.  One of the first things her Scottish doctor did was eliminate possible 3/4ths of those prescriptions as "unnecessary."   This had no effect on her physical health, but her mental acuity improved greatly.   We were left with the impresion her American doctor had over-medicated her.
Now for the rest:
The beuracracy is horrid.  The paperwork was an aggravating factor to my father, beyond anything he'd ever had to put up with.
Save for a specialist when he had liver problems he was never able to see the same doctor twice.  You go into a large room, fill out paperwork, que up, and when your name is called, you see which ever doctor is available at that moment.
You saw Doctor Smith two weeks ago?
Tough, today you see Dr. Norwich -- 'cause THAT'S where you are in line.
In America, if you need an ambulance, they come equiped with paramedics, radio, lots of medical gear, defib equipment, bags of Ringer's Lactate, saline solution, and other stuff.  Some treatments can be applied en route under radio supervision from the doctors.
In Scotland?
Well, they actually DO have ambulances, so that's the good news.
They are panel trucks with a cot inside.
Literally.
I ain't shittin' ya.

Oh, and if you're diagnosed with cancer, as some of my parents' Scottish friends related.....you get to wait even months to see a cancer specialist.  I hope its not a fast-growing malignant type of cancer because if it is, that diagnosis was a death sentence.

Sorry, I will take good ol' U.S. of A. medicine everyday of the week and twice on Sundays.
There are things that can be done to improve American   medicine, but it won't be done by President Obama, it won't be done by President Hillary Clinton, and I am amazingly dubious that a President Trump will do anything positive, either.  

On a brighter note ....we only have to die once.  =D
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Perd Hapley

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2016, 12:42:38 PM »
Is it not relevant that importing Asians- typically the groups that have very low murder rates, poverty, divorce, and illegitimacy- produce vastly different results than America's immigrants- where are geared towards the exact opposite of these characteristics???


Send me your Asian, your law-abiding, your affluent, your family-oriented...
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2016, 05:04:15 PM »

Quote
Let’s start with the idea that what’s really important is making people better off, and not fidelity to some set of abstract principles. There are a whole bunch of people on the conservative side that think of politics as a kind of geometry, a political geometry. In other words, you start with some kind of locked-in axiom, and you build it up from there. And that’s not how politics should be played.

This video is a good, concise defense of principle in politics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n_rBxHxaco
(I hope the sound is not garbled. I think it is just my wonky system.)
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De Selby

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2016, 07:01:23 PM »
In other words tommy, you don't care about hard numbers because this one time your had a lot of paperwork in Scotland.

Not sure that's the best way to choose your stance on health policy.  Do you have competing figures maybe?

Note that success against cancer is extensively measured between countries.  The US overall has no better outcomes.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

TommyGunn

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2016, 07:10:02 PM »
In other words tommy, you don't care about hard numbers because this one time your had a lot of paperwork in Scotland.

Not sure that's the best way to choose your stance on health policy.  Do you have competing figures maybe?

Note that success against cancer is extensively measured between countries.  The US overall has no better outcomes.

I told you why I was dubious of foreign derived stats, if you don't wish to listen, but make up asshat strawman arguments,  you only come off as another dishonest shyshter mouthpiece.
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

De Selby

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2016, 08:00:17 PM »
I told you why I was dubious of foreign derived stats, if you don't wish to listen, but make up asshat strawman arguments,  you only come off as another dishonest shyshter mouthpiece.

So you think the OECD countries are cooking their books - that's no problem, but do you have some indication that this is so?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Firethorn

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2016, 08:29:54 PM »
Note that success against cancer is extensively measured between countries.  The US overall has no better outcomes.

I didn't have time when I read DeSelby's little story - it might have been just that one area for a brief period of time.

I know that there are lots of fully equipped ambulances in Europe, and talking with people there, waiting a year to see a cancer doctor would be an extreme anomaly that would result in news coverage similar to what we see for a spree killing in the USA.

I told you why I was dubious of foreign derived stats, if you don't wish to listen, but make up asshat strawman arguments,  you only come off as another dishonest shyshter mouthpiece.

Feel free to be 'dubious', but mere doubt shouldn't allow you to completely dismiss all data that doesn't jive with your world-view.

zahc

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2016, 10:03:57 PM »
 
Quote
Hugely expensive capital costs limit competition (ie, it isn't feasible to have a bunch of competing MRI machines and hospital facilities start up in response to demand as if theyre coffee shops)

I remain unimpressed and unconvinced by the "high capital cost" argument. Some medical equipment is sophisticated, but so is most industrial equipment nowadays. I buy sophisticated industrial equipment for a living. Most medical equipment is mature technology. Even MRI machines. If it's outrageously expensive, it's because of the same "market" forces that restrict supply of doctors.
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TommyGunn

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2016, 10:49:02 PM »
So you think the OECD countries are cooking their books - that's no problem, but do you have some indication that this is so?
:facepalm:

How did you manage to pass your bar exam with the reading comprehension of a dimwitted gerbil?
I never said anyone  was "cooking their books."   I said different countries gather and correlate statistics using different methodologies, making comparisons between countries at best problematic, at worst, nearly impossible.
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

TommyGunn

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2016, 10:56:23 PM »
..........
Feel free to be 'dubious', but mere doubt shouldn't allow you to completely dismiss all data that doesn't jive with your world-view.

I don't completely dismiss it, I am merely dubious of it.  As the say, "figures don't lie, but liars figure." 
Plus, for some bizarre reason,  I've acquired a deeply ingrained distrust of politicians who promise great things to us if we merely allow them to gain govt.control of health care.
Gofigure.....whoda thunk that 'D  happen?
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

De Selby

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2016, 11:33:44 PM »
 
I remain unimpressed and unconvinced by the "high capital cost" argument. Some medical equipment is sophisticated, but so is most industrial equipment nowadays. I buy sophisticated industrial equipment for a living. Most medical equipment is mature technology. Even MRI machines. If it's outrageously expensive, it's because of the same "market" forces that restrict supply of doctors.

Except that you don't exactly get to stock Walmart with the product, and I suppose if you think of IP as a restriction on supply that would be a major one.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Balog

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2016, 11:38:57 PM »
 
I remain unimpressed and unconvinced by the "high capital cost" argument. Some medical equipment is sophisticated, but so is most industrial equipment nowadays. I buy sophisticated industrial equipment for a living. Most medical equipment is mature technology. Even MRI machines. If it's outrageously expensive, it's because of the same "market" forces that restrict supply of doctors.

Have you ever worked in a facility with an MRI? I have, and there's a lot more to it than just "buy the machine and set it up."
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

zahc

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2016, 11:40:27 PM »
"IP" is caused by government too.

The volume of the healthcare market is relatively enormous. I imagine every city in the US could use an MRI machine, maybe multiples, certainly every large city. Compare that with, say, machines for ion-implanting semiconductors. Companies might sell 1 every 5 years, each one custom. Even those only cost a million or two each.
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Balog

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2016, 11:48:42 PM »
This video is a good, concise defense of principle in politics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n_rBxHxaco
(I hope the sound is not garbled. I think it is just my wonky system.)

The real question is what principles one adheres to, innit?
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Balog

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2016, 11:51:20 PM »
:facepalm:

How did you manage to pass your bar exam with the reading comprehension of a dimwitted gerbil?
I never said anyone  was "cooking their books."   I said different countries gather and correlate statistics using different methodologies, making comparisons between countries at best problematic, at worst, nearly impossible.

So, in the absence of evidence you trust you've decided our system is best because Murica? Alrighty then, compelling argument.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

zahc

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2016, 11:59:46 PM »
Have you ever worked in a facility with an MRI? I have, and there's a lot more to it than just "buy the machine and set it up."

Wah. So some engineering is needed? Engineers are available, and they aren't that expensive; doctors make more in fact, as any salary survey will show. MRI has been around long enough I wager what is really needed is skilled technicians trained on the tools, and those probably come with the tool, at least during install and startup. Not like some of the analytical tools which basically come with a ph.d to babysit them forever.

Its a matter of perspective. I never said cheap or easy. I said relatively cheap and easy. I remain unimpressed by the supposed capex requirements of health-care, at least when it comes to people blaming it for high consumer costs. I work in high-tech manufacturing and R&D, so I see expensive equipment, and then I go to hospitals, and I see some pretty modest stuff. I work with ion implanters that are the size of an apartment, that kill you with kV power supplies and run fun things like arsine and phosphine gas, totally custom systems that cost only a few million. Giant RF induction furnaces, first and only ones made in the world. Excimer lasers. ALD systems that run gases that cost $30,000/bottle and are so new and nasty nobody knows how to regulate them,  processes so expensive that one process run costs more than my salary. High-vacuum systems that pump down to a millitorr that are so big you can climb into them. We consume kilograms of gold per quarter. I don't have direct experience with MRI, but I do with NMR, and I once bought a 1T magnet with a gap almost big enough to crawl in. This stuff is expensive, but such is industry. MRI machines? The fundamentals say that the MRI machines are not what's making your healthcare expensive.

 If medical equipment is expensive, it's due to the same market failures that we all discuss over and over. The capex requirements of advanced medicine, in light of the relatively enormous and standardized market, are not fundamentally high. To stick with MRI example, MRI is ancient technology by now. The consumables and labor to run them should swamp the capital by this point, if the market for medical devices were healthy and functioning. So saying medical care is expensive because the capital is expensive is like saying that medical care is expensive because doctors' salaries are high and there is a shortage of doctors. True, but just a restatement of the problem.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 12:22:20 AM by zahc »
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TommyGunn

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2016, 12:17:52 AM »
So, in the absence of evidence you trust you've decided our system is best because Murica? Alrighty then, compelling argument.

Another whacko strawman argument.
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Balog

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2016, 12:26:14 AM »
Lengthy arglbargl

I'm sure we're all very impressed with the stuff at your job. Cherry picking a single item, making some points that are not directly related to the argument presented to you, and then portraying that single cherry picked item as the only factor in that argument is mendacious in the extreme.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Balog

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2016, 12:26:52 AM »
Another whacko strawman argument.

You should listen to less talk radio, your arguments would be better.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

TommyGunn

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2016, 12:20:35 PM »
You should listen to less talk radio, your arguments would be better.

You should tell me how you derive "MURICA!" from me stating that different countries gather & correlate statistics differently.
Your arguments would be better.   ;)
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

MechAg94

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2016, 04:07:05 PM »
I'm sure we're all very impressed with the stuff at your job. Cherry picking a single item, making some points that are not directly related to the argument presented to you, and then portraying that single cherry picked item as the only factor in that argument is mendacious in the extreme.
If you cherry pick the right stats, you can look good no matter what reality is.  It is pretty silly to discount one version of cherry picking with more cherry picking.  This entire thread as full of it.  IMO, especially from those who seem to hate any free market solution no matter what topic.
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MechAg94

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2016, 04:16:21 PM »
We have a lot of problems with our current system, but most of those problems are not because of market forces.  They are because the govt has set up a quasi-govt healthcare system that is idiotic and encourages all the wrong behavior.  It may have started with Medicare back 30 more more years ago.  Maybe it started with the income tax and allowing health care as a tax break to get people used to not paying the bill.  If a single payer health system would be cheaper it would only be because our current system is so screwed up, if we scrapped ALL the current laws in favor of a new single system it might improve things (but only until the bureaucrats screw it up again).  I really doubt any attempt to go to a single payer system would get rid of all the screwed up stuff that exists now so any attempt is only going to make things worse.

Another thing to remember is that employer provided healthcare is a combination of healthcare and insurance.  If it was just insurance, everything we spend would be out of pocket which would encourage everyone to shop around.  I do like the comparison to vision and dental care.  My lasic surgery was pretty simple.  I shopped around.  I visited two different places for an exam.  I paid the fee at one.  The surgery got done.  
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

De Selby

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Re: Socialist ends by capitalist means
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2016, 06:57:43 PM »
Mech,

Those stats don't appear cherry picked.  Do you have any data that might show a different view?

Also, do you think insurance company and health industry consolidation might have anything to do with rising prices?  How does government regulation of health force them to increase prices?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."