Why your kids can't work their way through college any more

[mtnbkr]

I would say yes and no. It very much depends on the trade or industry one goes in to.

There's a lot of companies where experience is of very little value, while a piece of paper is worth a ton even when it has nothing at all to do with what you'll be doing.


Sent from my iPhone. Freaking autocorrect.

I suppose there are companies like that out there, but none of the three I've worked for placed more importance on a degree over experience unless you had no experience and were being considered for an entry level position.  As a hiring manager, I don't even require a degree in my job postings because I'm looking for people with years of experience, at which point a degree is a "nice to have", but not a requirement.  The last few people I hired had no degree at all.

But what do I know...

Chris

[lupinus]

With my company they will hire someone straight out of college for a management position over someone with a HS diploma or ged, experience on the job, and a good track record with the company. It's technically possible as a degree isn't technically required but it's a rarity and more or less requires an unofficial degree in brown nosing.

And we're talking retail stores and retail distribution, not a highly technical field.


Sent from my iPhone. Freaking autocorrect.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Geico hires interns and moves em straight into management.  Over the folks who trained em. It's getting results.  Not the ones they want though

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[De Selby]

I suppose there are companies like that out there, but none of the three I've worked for placed more importance on a degree over experience unless you had no experience and were being considered for an entry level position.  As a hiring manager, I don't even require a degree in my job postings because I'm looking for people with years of experience, at which point a degree is a "nice to have", but not a requirement.  The last few people I hired had no degree at all.

But what do I know...

Chris

This is called smart management.  It's not common in every industry.

[mtnbkr]

With my company they will hire someone straight out of college for a management position over someone with a HS diploma or ged, experience on the job, and a good track record with the company. It's technically possible as a degree isn't technically required but it's a rarity and more or less requires an unofficial degree in brown nosing.

And we're talking retail stores and retail distribution, not a highly technical field.

Sent from my iPhone. Freaking autocorrect.

Retail is a bit of a dinosaur.  My dad worked as a retail manager his entire career, which was enough to make me realize I wanted no part of it.

The company I'm at now strongly believes in promoting from within.  It's not at all unusual to meet a senior manager who's only in his/her 40s who has been with the company 20+ years.  They started out as an intern or in the mailroom or some such and worked their way up.  The VP I used to report up through was one of those guys.  I have guy in my org who is in his early 50s and just had his 35y anniversary with the company.  I've been so impressed with that aspect of the company culture (and other things), I've made the decision to stay as long as I can even though I could make more money elsewhere.  The intangible benefits of this job outweigh the modest salary improvements I could make elsewhere.  That seems to be the consensus of a lot of folks here with me as well.

This is called smart management.  It's not common in every industry.

I suppose.  To me it was just being observant.  When the engineer with a GED or HS diploma but lots of drive and experience is kicking ass and walking on water, you don't filter those like him out with a bogus college degree requirement.

FWIW, I have an MBA.  Theoretically, I should be inclined to hire folks more like me.  The only time I look at a college degree on a resume is when I'm trying to differentiate between to otherwise similar candidates.  Even then, the degree would have to be special AND relevant to be considered an asset. 

Chris

[zahc]

I work in the semiconductor industry, and across several companies, my experience is that you will not be hired without a degree. Even experienced people with 15+ years of experience, who somehow get "grandfathered", if they are hired, are hired as "engineering technicians" or "applications specialist", even working right alongside degreed people doing an identical job. Of course, the non- degreed cannot be promoted to any management role either. And yes, HR put new college hires into rotation programs and then speed them into middle management positions, just to keep management payroll down, while passing over experienced team members who would be disruptive to promote because they actually keep things running.

I hate it, but I feel I would not be where I am without my Master degree, not because of what I learned, but because I got opportunities that I wouldn't have been considered for without the paper. It's approximately the opposite of the optimum hiring practice, since it ensures you hire expensive people with minimal domain experience, but that's management for you.

[wmenorr67]

Amazing that being able to BS isn't worth as much as a BS.

I have all the experience a lot of places want but then they throw in they want a college degree, for entry level work.

Well you're 25 years old with a degree but no experience so we can't hire you.

Well you have 10-15 years experience but no degree we can't hire you.

Well you have 10-15 years experience and a degree but you won't accept the job because we only want to pay you $30K a year, even though the job should pay twice that.

[mtnbkr]

$30K a year, even though the job should pay twice that.

The jobs I hire for start at roughly $80k and run up to nearly $140k.  The last two I hired were $95k and $125k.

Some of that is due to the region, but I hired a remote guy in a less expensive area for $90k.

Still no degree requirement as long as I call the shots. :D

Chris

[roo_ster]

You'd have to ask roo_ster, because he draws different conclusions from his own story than you do.

I drew several conclusions.

1. 1950s-1960s: Do-able at even private school expenses.
In the past (1950s-1960s) one could work like the devil over the summer at a union low-skilled job and cover all the more expensive private schooling costs and some living expenses.  Union wages + beau coup overtime = a serious chuck of change for 1960.  I speculate that if one were bright enough--and not taking a challenging course of study--it would be possible to work part-time during the rest of the school year while taking a full course load and cover all living expenses, too. 

Any of the rigorous STEM majors would not likely be do-able with this approach.  There is no comparison WRT difficulty, time commitment, etc. between rigorous STEM and any other course of study (history, business, soft sciences, etc.).  Any bachelors whatsoever was a boon so that STEM vs non-STEM was no great disability.  In 1960.

2. 1990s: Possibly do-able at state school expenses.
This was no longer the case come 1990.  At the encouragement of my father, I took a similar path, work-wise after high school.  Similar work, similar hours, but greater risk of injury (to make more money) and greater downside risk given an injury (given no union and meager benefits).  The union low-skilled jobs were not available.  The fruits of that labor could no longer cover private college expenses.  The fruits of similar work on 1990 could cover no more than half in-state state school expenses.  Not to mention automobile and other spending monies.  I think my dad was a little embarrassed.  His dad gave him zero advice for post-HS learning or career and he resolved to do better by HIS kids.  In my opinion he did damn well by batting 0.500 and pushing us toward STEM instead of his field of study.  Even then, BigCorp hired business majors to answer telephones in sales & support banks.  His efforts in the years since his college days left us well-enough situated in the middle class such that when his kids went to college, he could help us out. We all worked like crazy over the summers and saved almost all what we earned.  He made sure that between that earned money, scholarships, and cash he kicked in that we got through school with very little debt.  Need I mention that partying and drinking and getting poor grades were not even an option?

I am not sure that part-time work during the school year with a full course load would have covered the half of school expenses and other living expenses.  I doubt it even for non-STEM degrees.  To then get a bachelors that would mean reducing course load, increasing hours worked, and increasing the number of years it would take to get that non-STEM degree.  This INCREASES the opportunity cost of the degree, as those extra years one is in school are years one is not devoting to one's work career id one had instead chosen a career that did not require a degree. 

3. Today: Hahahahahahahahahahaha!
My dad's approach is not in any way do-able or reasonable in 2016, full stop.  Not even gaming it with community college first.  The cost of a college education is just too great.  And the ROI for most degrees has sunk so fast that many are not worth getting.  That ROI includes opportunity cost for working while studying, as that indicates less than 100% commitment to that job/career.  And the work during the school year option requires less than full course loads to avoid taking on debt. 

4. To sum up:
IOW, I am largely in agreement with the article in the OP.  Working your way through school and getting your bachelors in four years with no external cash inputs and no debt is just not something you can say is a reasonable course of action in 2016.  The work doesn't pay enough and the schooling costs too much.  It is even less reasonable for rigorous STEM degree.

There may be some truly exceptional folk who could make it work, but the solution for the top 0.01% in ability is not generally applicable.

To put things in perspective, opportunity-wise, recall that Bill Gates claims that he could not replicate his Microsoft success in today's environment.  True, he did what he did without a degree, but it points to a throttling of opportunity across the board.

5. Near Future:
While a scholarship would be welcome and a blessing, my wife and I do not count on it for our children.  Also, we are not saving up for our children's college education.  I did the math and any such savings are generally lost due to reduced financial aid packages.  Instead, we spend that money on the best schooling we can afford RIGHT NOW.  Who knows what the future will bring?  I smell great disruption, the sort that might make savings worth bupkis overnight, coming our wayt.  So, I invest in my kids RIGHT NOW, when I have the money to do so.  In addition to academics, I pay the cost to ensure their peers are not the bad sort and that the religion, morals, and ethics taught at home are also taught at school.

There are too many variables to lay concrete plans for our kids' post-HS education.  But we have a general idea to pay their way through some sort of training/trade/cert program through which they can support themselves in the short-mid term.  And then help them while they work while earning a remunerative bachelors (room & board, school expenses they can't cover), hopefully something in line with their previous training/trade/cert.  The particular form that takes depends on talent, desire, opportunity, and circumstances.

[wmenorr67]

The jobs I hire for start at roughly $80k and run up to nearly $140k.  The last two I hired were $95k and $125k.

Some of that is due to the region, but I hired a remote guy in a less expensive area for $90k.

Still no degree requirement as long as I call the shots. :D

Chris

Remote as I could work where?

[mtnbkr]

That guy was in Tx.  I have another in MN, one in PA, another in NY, and three in the UK.  The rest are within commuting distance of our office in VA.  I expect the UK contingent to expand, both through hiring and through acquiring other groups, over the next year or so.  I also need to eventually stand up a team in APAC.

We're a global operation.

Chris

[wmenorr67]

What about the KC area?

[Perd Hapley]

I drew several conclusions.

I took note of this one:

So, no, it is not impossible to work your way through college.  But it has gotten much harder to do as time passed.  

In my own experience, I worked my way through for several years, taking about two classes per semester, and sometimes taking a semester or two off, at a time. I haven't completed a degree yet, and doubt that I will. I'm sure it's possible, but I chosen to prioritize other things above education. I do not take my own experience as particularly good guidance in this area.

[Perd Hapley]

I expect the UK contingent to expand, both through hiring and through acquiring other groups, over the next year or so. 

But BREXIT!!!! 

[MechAg94]

The biggest problem I see in management is company's hiring them and then no one seems to actually evaluate their performance and kick them out if they do a bad job.  I see too many that talk a good game, make crappy decisions, then transfer or leave for another job before they have to live with the consequences.  Sometimes they don't job hop, but still no one seems to pay attention to what they are doing as long as they make the numbers look okay.  Then there are the few who everyone says must have pictures of someone higher up to still have a job.

Some managers don't seem to grasp that spending the time to insure a good hire will save a lot of time later dealing with a bad or incompetent employee.  

[mtnbkr]

But BREXIT!!!! 

Actually, that may cause problems for us.  The mitigating factor is that IT security is so hot right now, it may offset any financial issues caused by Brexit.  That said, the associated drop in the value of the Pound is hurting our budget a bit.  We budged for X for new kit and now it's going to be X+Y% due to the drop.

Chris

[KD5NRH]

Some managers don't seem to grasp that spending the time to insure a good hire will save a lot of time later dealing with a bad or incompetent employee.  

This, particularly when the incompetent one stays under the radar long enough, and management shakes up often enough, that he's been there significantly longer than most of his chain of command.  Then they won't get rid of him without a series of major screwups.