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January 22, 2017, 02:09:47 AM *
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Author Topic: Shooting at FLL airport  (Read 975 times)
Jim147
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« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2017, 11:18:38 PM »


Better pass a law to make it a double no gun zone. And fast.

That would make it a no no?
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Hawkmoon
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« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2017, 11:43:56 PM »

That would make it a no no?

Yes.

Because that's what liberals do best ... pass new laws that make things that are illegal under existing laws illegaler.
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230RN
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« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2017, 12:41:47 AM »

Why does it seem like the Brits are the only ones that can cover things like this reasonably thoroughly.

I was going to comment on the apparent high quality of the Sun's reportage.  Outstanding, compared to what I see in most U.S. reports.
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How can you logically maintain that restrictions on short barreled rifles, silencers, free trade between individuals, ammunition specifications, outright bans on ownership of anything resembling a firearm, background checks, et cetera, are not "infringements"?.
MikeB
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« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2017, 02:34:36 AM »

Yet again. Failure of Law Enforcement and Mental Health providers. Of course that means we need more gun laws.  rolleyes

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/06/us/fort-lauderdale-airport.html?referer=https://news.google.com/
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Fly320s
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« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2017, 02:49:48 AM »

Yet again. Failure of Law Enforcement and Mental Health providers. Of course that means we need more gun laws.  rolleyes

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/06/us/fort-lauderdale-airport.html?referer=https://news.google.com/

No.  Just no.  The only failure here is the failure of the assailant to not murder people.

Doctors, lawyers, cops, and politicians are not responsible in any way for the actions of an individual.
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MikeB
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« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2017, 04:09:51 AM »

No.  Just no.  The only failure here is the failure of the assailant to not murder people.

Doctors, lawyers, cops, and politicians are not responsible in any way for the actions of an individual.

I beg to differ. When someone goes to an FBI office and tells them ISIS is in their head telling them to kill people and that person is then sent for a mental health check it is those agents and doctors responsibility to do something.

There are even laws requiring them to do something about someone that demonstrates that they are a risk to themselves and others. You can want those laws changed, but as of now they are what they are. Quite a few of these mass shootings have involved someone that was known to law enforcement to be mentally unstable and had at least some contact with mental health providers if not in fact extended contact or treatment.
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dogmush
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« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2017, 06:31:52 AM »

Quote
I beg to differ. When someone goes to an FBI office and tells them ISIS is in their head telling them to kill people and that person is then sent for a mental health check it is those agents and doctors responsibility to do something.

There are even laws requiring them to do something about someone that demonstrates that they are a risk to themselves and others. You can want those laws changed, but as of now they are what they are. Quite a few of these mass shootings have involved someone that was known to law enforcement to be mentally unstable and had at least some contact with mental health providers if not in fact extended contact or treatment.

How long should we lock people up that have committed no crimes, just on the say so of psychologists?
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cassandra and sara's daddy
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« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2017, 06:48:31 AM »

I beg to differ. When someone goes to an FBI office and tells them ISIS is in their head telling them to kill people and that person is then sent for a mental health check it is those agents and doctors responsibility to do something.

There are even laws requiring them to do something about someone that demonstrates that they are a risk to themselves and others. You can want those laws changed, but as of now they are what they are. Quite a few of these mass shootings have involved someone that was known to law enforcement to be mentally unstable and had at least some contact with mental health providers if not in fact extended contact or treatment.
Patients rights are a big deal. It's VERY hard to get someone involuntarily commited. That has a cost

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I
MillCreek
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« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2017, 06:51:38 AM »

Patients rights are a big deal. It's VERY hard to get someone involuntarily commited. That has a cost


I live this dream in my clinics every week.  If the County Designated Mental Health Professional does not think the patient meets involuntary hold criteria, or the patient does not voluntarily agree to an inpatient stay, we are pretty much screwed.  I have been involved with cases in which I truly wondered, after the patient had walked out, if I would be seeing their name in the paper soon.
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Hawkmoon
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« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2017, 07:04:37 AM »

Patients rights are a big deal. It's VERY hard to get someone involuntarily commited. That has a cost


In this case, it cost five people their lives.

I don't think it should be easy to commit people involuntarily, but I think when a person says the U.S. intelligence is controlling his mind and forcing him to watch ISIS propaganda, that might be above the threshold level. The problem is mental health practitioners (psychiatrists and psychologists both) who are only too happy to report non-dangerous people to NICS and support protective orders against people who aren't a threat to anyone "out of an abundance of caution," but who aren't willing to commit people such as this because, well, "rights."
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MikeB
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« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2017, 09:10:33 AM »

How long should we lock people up that have committed no crimes, just on the say so of psychologists?

If I ever feel compelled to tell the FBI that there are voices in my head telling me to watch ISIS videos and to kill for ISIS you can lock me up permanently. We aren't talking about some mundain depression or OCD behavior here. This guy should obviously have been held or monitored in some way. I'm kind of sick of people blaming guns when mental health disorders are really the cause of most of these rampages.
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fistful
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« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2017, 12:54:48 PM »

When they outlaw insanity, only outlaws will be insane. And my in-laws, but that's another story.
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The scholar has lived in many times and is therefore in some degree immune from the great cataract of nonsense that pours from the press and the microphone of his own age.
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20 Jan. 2017 - Change we can believe in.
RoadKingLarry
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« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2017, 02:47:59 PM »

In this case, it cost five people their lives.

I don't think it should be easy to commit people involuntarily, but I think when a person says the U.S. intelligence is controlling his mind and forcing him to watch ISIS propaganda, that might be above the threshold level. The problem is mental health practitioners (psychiatrists and psychologists both) who are only too happy to report non-dangerous people to NICS and support protective orders against people who aren't a threat to anyone "out of an abundance of caution," but who aren't willing to commit people such as this because, well, "rights."

Tinfoil Hat Smiley
With all the incredibly *expletive deleted*ed up *expletive deleted*it our government has done is it completely crazy to just for a second or two, wonder if the guy might have been telling the truth?
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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grampster
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« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2017, 03:37:47 PM »

I had a close friend who became schizophrenic.  His erratic behavior went on for several years.  Cost him his family, his job, and eventually his life.  I spent many hours at various and sundry times trying to help/guide/convince him.  He self admitted himself a number of times.  They medicated him, got him thinking straight because of the meds and released him.  After a few weeks he'd believe himself cured and stop the meds and go back into his delusions.  Mental illness is a scourge.

I wound up carrying his coffin to his final resting place after he either threw himself off a pier into Lake Michigan because he could not stand dealing with his disease anymore, and knew he'd relapse.  Or some of the druggy, homeless, dreck of the earth he fell in with when the disease grabbed him, knocked him over the head for pills, dope or money and chucked him into Lake Michigan.  His body was too decomposed and battered by the rocks in the Lake Michigan harbor to be able to tell how he died.

The sad thing is that this terrible tragedy will do nothing to change how mental illness is dealt with/treated in America.  That is more than a shame, it is part of the scourge.  The intelligentsia and literati will blame every other thing but the monster that should be dealt with; mental illness. 
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never_retreat
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« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2017, 03:57:29 PM »

And que up the clinton news network for "whitening" up the guy.

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fistful
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« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2017, 05:04:13 PM »

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The scholar has lived in many times and is therefore in some degree immune from the great cataract of nonsense that pours from the press and the microphone of his own age.
-- C.S. Lewis

20 Jan. 2017 - Change we can believe in.
makattak
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« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2017, 06:30:21 AM »

And que up the clinton news network for "whitening" up the guy.


Although,  given the press's actions with Zimmerman* this is entirely believable,  it seems that not only did CNN not publish a lightened photo,  that's not even the right person.



*(NBC's dishonest tape edit being foremost,  but among others, inventing "white hispanic" so they didn't have to abandon their narrative come to mind)
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"Political correctness is communist propaganda writ small... the purpose of communist propaganda was not to persuade or convince, nor to inform, but to humiliate; the less it corresponded to reality the better...To assent to obvious lies is to co-operate with evil, and in some small way to become evil oneself. One's standing to resist anything is thus eroded, and even destroyed. A society of emasculated liars is easy to control."
Hawkmoon
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« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2017, 07:49:08 AM »

I still don't understand exactly (or even approximately) what "Hispanic" is or means. My late wife was from Chile. The U.S. government consistently wanted to classify her as "Hispanic." She was incensed. Her view was that she was white, and happened to have been born in South America in a country where Spanish is the language. She was very adamant about it.
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fistful
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« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2017, 08:37:19 AM »

I still don't understand exactly (or even approximately) what "Hispanic" is or means. My late wife was from Chile. The U.S. government consistently wanted to classify her as "Hispanic." She was incensed. Her view was that she was white, and happened to have been born in South America in a country where Spanish is the language. She was very adamant about it.


https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/22/upshot/more-hispanics-declaring-themselves-white.html?_r=0
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The scholar has lived in many times and is therefore in some degree immune from the great cataract of nonsense that pours from the press and the microphone of his own age.
-- C.S. Lewis

20 Jan. 2017 - Change we can believe in.
Hawkmoon
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« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2017, 09:14:02 AM »


Hmmm ...

Quote
The largest shifts were among Americans of Hispanic origin, who are the nation’s fastest growing ethnic group by total numbers.

Race is an immutable characteristic for many white, black and Asian-Americans. It is less clear for Americans of Hispanic origin. The census form asks two questions about race and ethnicity: one about whether individuals are of Hispanic or Latino origin, and another about race. “Hispanics” do not constitute a race, according to the census, and so 37 percent of Hispanics, presumably dissatisfied with options like “white” or “black,” selected “some other race.”

The researchers found that 2.5 million Americans of Hispanic origin, or approximately 7 percent of the 35 million Americans of Hispanic origin in 2000, changed their race from “some other race” in 2000 to “white” in 2010. An additional 1.3 million people switched in the other direction. A noteworthy but unspecified share of the change came from children who weren’t old enough to fill out a form in 2000, but chose for themselves in 2010.

My wife never changed. She always considered herself white.

Quote
The data provide new evidence consistent with the theory that Hispanics may assimilate as white Americans, like the Italians or Irish, who were not universally considered to be white. It is particularly significant that the shift toward white identification withstood a decade of debate over immigration and the country’s exploding Hispanic population, which might have been expected to inculcate or reinforce a sense of Hispanic identity, or draw attention to divisions that remain between Hispanics and non-Hispanic white Americans. Research suggests that Hispanics who have experienced discrimination are less likely to identify as white.

That's the part that has always mystified me. Spain is a European country on the north side of the Mediterranean Sea. So are France, Italy, and Greece. French, Italians, and Greeks are considered white, so why is there a special classification for people whose ancestors 500 years ago came from Spain?

Quote
The data also call into question whether America is destined to become a so-called minority-majority nation, where whites represent a minority of the nation’s population. Those projections assume that Hispanics aren’t white, but if Hispanics ultimately identify as white Americans, then whites will remain the majority for the foreseeable future.

It's all in the spin ...
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Hawkmoon
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« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2017, 09:16:55 AM »

Back to the shooter, and the possible failings of the intelligence and mental health people -- I just saw a report that the shooter traveled from Alaska to Florida on a one-way ticket. I thought one-way tickets were supposed to send up red flags. I would think especially someone traveling with a gun on a one-way ticket might be something that should have sent up several red flags. The more that comes out about this, the more it appears that the aw-thaw-rih-tays royally screwed the pooch on this one.
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Hawkmoon
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« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2017, 09:30:23 AM »

And back to the difference between race and ethnicity:

The collective wisdom of the Internet tells me that race is biological and doesn't change (Rachel Dolazell notwithstanding), but ethnicity is about cultural identification, and may change. If that's the case, then it doesn't seem to make much sense for the .gov to be asking about our ethnicity, since that may change. And, in any case, this would seem to suggest that "white" is not a descriptor of an ethnicity.

So if ethnicity means

Quote
Ethnicity is about tradition, learned behavior and customs. It is about learning where you come from, and celebrating the traditions and ideas that are part of that region.

Read more: Difference Between Ethnicity and Race | Difference Between http://www.differencebetween.net/science/nature/difference-between-ethnicity-and-race/#ixzz4VBy7QRZq

What do people who came to the U.S. from France or Italy put down for ethnicity? Shouldn't Italian-Americans put down "Italian"? Shouldn't German-Americans put down "Germanic"? Ben, you're Americanized, but what ethncity does your father consider himself to be? If you were filling out a .gov form for him (such as the census), what would you enter as his ethnicity?

The more I look into it, the less I see any reason for the .gov to be asking about something that may change from one year to the next. And it would seem that the proper ethnic classifications for Americans should probably not be "white" or "Hispanic," but either "Caucasian-American," "African-American," or "Latin-American." And then, of course, we would need "Chinese-American," "Japanese-American," "Korean-American," etc.
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BobR
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« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2017, 09:57:52 AM »

Back to the shooter, and the possible failings of the intelligence and mental health people -- I just saw a report that the shooter traveled from Alaska to Florida on a one-way ticket. I thought one-way tickets were supposed to send up red flags. I would think especially someone traveling with a gun on a one-way ticket might be something that should have sent up several red flags. The more that comes out about this, the more it appears that the aw-thaw-rih-tays royally screwed the pooch on this one.

Those were some of my exact thoughts. He had been to the FBI, been held for a few days for a mental health eval, had his gun taken for 30 days, several DV visits at his residence in AK, one way ticket to the opposite corner of the US and a checked gun. I think TSA and others may have some 'splaining to do but that won't happen. The focus will become "how can we let people fly with guns and ammo in their luggage?". The underlying failure of the TSA, FBI and possibly the military will soon be forgotten and the focus will once again become the gun and not the failures of all involved that allowed it to get to the point it did.

bob
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Fly320s
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« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2017, 10:37:39 AM »

If he was released from the hospital then there was no reason to take his gun.
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BobR
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« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2017, 10:57:45 AM »

If he was released from the hospital then there was no reason to take his gun.

Being released from the hospital is not why they would give him his gun back. If he had been adjudicated as a danger to himself or others then he could have been released and never been legally allowed to own a gun again until he had those rights restored. Without the adjudication there was no grounds to keep his gun so it was given back. In the back of my mind I keep thinking this guy was probably an diagnosed schizophrenic. Hopefully the mental health aspect of this will be examined but I don't think so, IMO focus will be flying with firearms in checked luggage.

bob
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