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Author Topic: Inside the mind of another liberal (my niece)  (Read 1277 times)
Monkeyleg
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« on: January 09, 2017, 05:31:19 PM »

Take a peek:



And what is Bernie's magic solution for SS? Why, make the wealthy pay their "fair share", of course! It's a closed-loop tape.
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Hawkmoon
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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2017, 07:17:55 PM »

Having the wealthy pay "their fair share" ignores the uncomfortable fact that Social Security was not supposed to be an entitlement, and there was never supposed to be anybody's "fair share" in the fund except each person's own money. The money was supposed to  have been invested, so it earned income while the person was working so he or she could then draw down the money his/her investment had earned as a pension.

But, Noooooo ... the geniuses who run our government saw all that moeny sitting there and decided they could just "borrow" some of it to pay the day-to-day expenses of running the government. And now that they've borrowed much more than they can figure out how to repay, they act like it's a big mystery why Socuial Security is in trouble.
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lupinus
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2017, 07:21:56 PM »

Having the wealthy pay "their fair share" ignores the uncomfortable fact that Social Security was not supposed to be an entitlement, and there was never supposed to be anybody's "fair share" in the fund except each person's own money. The money was supposed to  have been invested, so it earned income while the person was working so he or she could then draw down the money his/her investment had earned as a pension.

But, Noooooo ... the geniuses who run our government saw all that moeny sitting there and decided they could just "borrow" some of it to pay the day-to-day expenses of running the government. And now that they've borrowed much more than they can figure out how to repay, they act like it's a big mystery why Socuial Security is in trouble.
But but...

fair share!
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That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.
sumpnz
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2017, 08:21:49 PM »

Having the wealthy pay "their fair share" ignores the uncomfortable fact that Social Security was not supposed to be an entitlement, and there was never supposed to be anybody's "fair share" in the fund except each person's own money. The money was supposed to  have been invested, so it earned income while the person was working so he or she could then draw down the money his/her investment had earned as a pension.

But, Noooooo ... the geniuses who run our government saw all that moeny sitting there and decided they could just "borrow" some of it to pay the day-to-day expenses of running the government. And now that they've borrowed much more than they can figure out how to repay, they act like it's a big mystery why Socuial Security is in trouble.

Had government bought marketable bonds to replace the money in the supposed "trust fund" there'd be plenty of money available.  But what they did was take the money and put unmarketable treasury bonds in its place.  Effectively just slips of paper saying IOU.  They are so worthless that even the Chinese wouldn't buy them even if they legally could.
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DittoHead
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« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2017, 05:39:38 AM »

What a crazy idea that YOU pay for what YOU need!  Face Palm!

The simple reality is that healthcare is expensive and someone is going to pay for it. If insurance companies are going to be forced to cover pre existing conditions, "kids" up to 26, and can't place any cap on payouts then they're going to need to make up for it somewhere else and lately that means higher premiums for everyone.
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On a vast scale, members of the Republican base are defending behavior from Trump that would shock and appall them if it came from a Democratic president.
fistful
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« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2017, 07:15:48 AM »

...higher premiums for everyone.


I believe that's what's known as "change we can believe in."

(Not to be confused with the second clause of my sig line.)
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When MLK used the techniques he learned from Gandhi - was that cultural appropriation?

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"The ears of our generation have been made so delicate by the senseless multitude of flatterers that, as soon as we perceive that anything of ours is not approved of, we cry out that we are being bitterly assailed..."
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HankB
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« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2017, 07:28:41 AM »

Having the wealthy pay "their fair share" ignores the uncomfortable fact that Social Security was not supposed to be an entitlement, and there was never supposed to be anybody's "fair share" in the fund except each person's own money. The money was supposed to  have been invested, so it earned income while the person was working so he or she could then draw down the money his/her investment had earned as a pension.

But, Noooooo ... the geniuses who run our government saw all that moeny sitting there and decided they could just "borrow" some of it to pay the day-to-day expenses of running the government. And now that they've borrowed much more than they can figure out how to repay, they act like it's a big mystery why Socuial Security is in trouble.
Social Security today is trillions in surplus - the money is in a special class of government bonds, similar in concept to T-bills or savings bonds, but exclusive to SS funds. Being in surplus, SS today is not contributing to the current national debt; in fact, it's funding the national debt, since .gov has "borrowed" the money.

The problem is, with cash flow projections, SS is slated to go into negative cash flow in 20 years or so; that's a problem.

What I find disturbing is that a program that has old age benefits based on the premise that they'll be paid to people who WORKED and CONTRIBUTED for 3 or 4 decades is supposed to be "balanced" in the future by benefit cuts - WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH TRANSFERRING WELFARE BENEFITS TO SS? Since 2012, we've been spending over $1,000,000,000,000.00 a year on UNEARNED welfare benefits, which include everything from direct payments to free Obama phones . . . NONE OF WHICH WERE EARNED BY THE RECIPIENTS!

Why do lifetime freeloaders have higher priority for .gov funding than retired working people?
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Trump won. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
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Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
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makattak
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« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2017, 07:59:01 AM »

Social Security today is trillions in surplus - the money is in a special class of government bonds, similar in concept to T-bills or savings bonds, but exclusive to SS funds. Being in surplus, SS today is not contributing to the current national debt; in fact, it's funding the national debt, since .gov has "borrowed" the money.

The problem is, with cash flow projections, SS is slated to go into negative cash flow in 20 years or so; that's a problem.

What I find disturbing is that a program that has old age benefits based on the premise that they'll be paid to people who WORKED and CONTRIBUTED for 3 or 4 decades is supposed to be "balanced" in the future by benefit cuts - WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH TRANSFERRING WELFARE BENEFITS TO SS? Since 2012, we've been spending over $1,000,000,000,000.00 a year on UNEARNED welfare benefits, which include everything from direct payments to free Obama phones . . . NONE OF WHICH WERE EARNED BY THE RECIPIENTS!


Err... no. http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2015/07/social-security-39-billion-deficit-in-2014-insolvent-by-2035

It is ALREADY in negative cash flow. It will be insolvent in 20 years.
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"Political correctness is communist propaganda writ small... the purpose of communist propaganda was not to persuade or convince, nor to inform, but to humiliate; the less it corresponded to reality the better...To assent to obvious lies is to co-operate with evil, and in some small way to become evil oneself. One's standing to resist anything is thus eroded, and even destroyed. A society of emasculated liars is easy to control."
makattak
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« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2017, 08:00:04 AM »

Why do lifetime freeloaders have higher priority for .gov funding than retired working people?

Because Social security was supposed to be earned, not an entitlement (welfare.)
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"Political correctness is communist propaganda writ small... the purpose of communist propaganda was not to persuade or convince, nor to inform, but to humiliate; the less it corresponded to reality the better...To assent to obvious lies is to co-operate with evil, and in some small way to become evil oneself. One's standing to resist anything is thus eroded, and even destroyed. A society of emasculated liars is easy to control."
Hawkmoon
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« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2017, 08:58:48 AM »

Because Social security was supposed to be earned, not an entitlement (welfare.)

I believe that was Hank's point.
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HankB
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« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2017, 02:02:19 PM »

Err... no. http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2015/07/social-security-39-billion-deficit-in-2014-insolvent-by-2035

It is ALREADY in negative cash flow. It will be insolvent in 20 years.
TY for the correction - right now, they're tapping into the accumulated surplus of past decades, said surplus is estimated to run out in 20 years or so.
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Trump won. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Those who work for a living are being BURIED by those who vote for a living.
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain
RoadKingLarry
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« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2017, 04:15:28 PM »

Quote
Why do lifetime freeloaders have higher priority for .gov funding than retired working people?

Gotta buy votes somehow.
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Monkeyleg
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« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2017, 04:59:53 PM »

My niece and her friends are continuing this discussion, and they're convinced that Medicare for everyone is the way to go, rather than Obamacare. Why? Because from their vantage point, it looks like Medicare is working.

I can argue and argue and argue with her and her friends, but can never make them understand that you can't keep taking money from those with more than you, and nothing is free.
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bluestarlizzard
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Oh please, nobody died last time...


« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2017, 05:08:54 PM »

My niece and her friends are continuing this discussion, and they're convinced that Medicare for everyone is the way to go, rather than Obamacare. Why? Because from their vantage point, it looks like Medicare is working.

I can argue and argue and argue with her and her friends, but can never make them understand that you can't keep taking money from those with more than you, and nothing is free.

They clearly don't have all that great of a vantage point.

Medicare is a crap shoot, has always been a crap shoot and, IMHO, will always be a crap shoot.
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Amy Schumer
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« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2017, 07:21:29 PM »

My niece and her friends are continuing this discussion, and they're convinced that Medicare for everyone is the way to go, rather than Obamacare. Why? Because from their vantage point, it looks like Medicare is working.

I can argue and argue and argue with her and her friends, but can never make them understand that you can't keep taking money from those with more than you, and nothing is free.

She is nothing more than an Armed Robber.  "They have it, we want it, let's have the .gov (men with guns) go get it."
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Monkeyleg
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« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2017, 07:50:27 PM »

She is nothing more than an Armed Robber.  "They have it, we want it, let's have the .gov (men with guns) go get it."

I actually said later in the discussion that I couldn't have the the government committing armed robbery for me to get money from others. My niece didn't like that. I repeated that government uses force to enforce laws, and she just didn't accept that.

When Mr. Medicare For Everyone popped back into the discussion, I said my leukemia treatment last year came to $425,000, but Medicare only paid a fraction of that. And the doctors and hospitals must make up the difference somewhere. He essentially said I favored the status quo because it kept me alive, even as poor children can't get quality health care. I thought it was an odd debate tactic to try to win over your opponent by suggesting he should die.
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Firethorn
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2017, 05:59:41 AM »

When Mr. Medicare For Everyone popped back into the discussion, I said my leukemia treatment last year came to $425,000, but Medicare only paid a fraction of that. And the doctors and hospitals must make up the difference somewhere. He essentially said I favored the status quo because it kept me alive, even as poor children can't get quality health care. I thought it was an odd debate tactic to try to win over your opponent by suggesting he should die.

I think you're reading more into his statement than is actually there.

1.  Did your treatment actually cost $425k?  How much of that was intended to pay for the people who pay $0 in the emergency room?  If hospitals had a much reduced non-pay rate, by Medicare paying something for most visitors, that amount could be much lower.
2.  I sense that there was likely some perception of "I have mine, screw you" perceived from you by him. 

I favor HSPs, but I think that it should be acknowledged that they're not ideal for a 22 year old college graduate who's $40k in debt for college, $200k in debt for the house, has a baby on the way and was just told that he has cancer.

That's more properly what insurance is for, but I think that it should be obvious to say that our entire healthcare system needs serious reform in order to limit wasteful spending.
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makattak
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2017, 06:10:01 AM »

I think you're reading more into his statement than is actually there.

1.  Did your treatment actually cost $425k?  How much of that was intended to pay for the people who pay $0 in the emergency room?  If hospitals had a much reduced non-pay rate, by Medicare paying something for most visitors, that amount could be much lower.
2.  I sense that there was likely some perception of "I have mine, screw you" perceived from you by him. 

I favor HSPs, but I think that it should be acknowledged that they're not ideal for a 22 year old college graduate who's $40k in debt for college, $200k in debt for the house, has a baby on the way and was just told that he has cancer.

That's more properly what insurance is for, but I think that it should be obvious to say that our entire healthcare system needs serious reform in order to limit wasteful spending.


Not sure what an HSP is, so I'm going to assume you meant health savings account (HSA).

The purpose of HSA's is to pay for healthcare (ACTUAL healthcare). It should be there for normal, foreseeable expenses- check-ups, minor diagnostics, minor surgeries, etc...

Combined with true insurance (like a very high deductible plan- e.g. $5,000- $10,000), it would return "insurance" to it's proper role- guarding against low probability, but high cost events- and allow "pre-paid health care" to shift to actual payments. 
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"Political correctness is communist propaganda writ small... the purpose of communist propaganda was not to persuade or convince, nor to inform, but to humiliate; the less it corresponded to reality the better...To assent to obvious lies is to co-operate with evil, and in some small way to become evil oneself. One's standing to resist anything is thus eroded, and even destroyed. A society of emasculated liars is easy to control."
Hawkmoon
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2017, 07:28:01 AM »

I thought it was an odd debate tactic to try to win over your opponent by suggesting he should die.

Obviously, he was just reminding you that you are from the wrong segment of society and that, therefore, your life doesn't matter.
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Monkeyleg
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2017, 07:30:24 AM »

I think you're reading more into his statement than is actually there.

1.  Did your treatment actually cost $425k?  How much of that was intended to pay for the people who pay $0 in the emergency room?  If hospitals had a much reduced non-pay rate, by Medicare paying something for most visitors, that amount could be much lower.
2.  I sense that there was likely some perception of "I have mine, screw you" perceived from you by him. 

The total billed amount was $429,000. I'm pretty sure Medicare paid less than $100,000.

If he had that perception, he has it for everybody. In his rants about replacing Obamacare with Medicare, he talked about limiting the amount of care available to some so that the young people could get better care. He said that medical professionals could get together and decide what care would be most effective for which groups. The "death panels" Sarah Palin talked about.
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cordex
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2017, 07:32:27 AM »

Not sure what an HSP is, so I'm going to assume you meant health savings account (HSA).

The purpose of HSA's is to pay for healthcare (ACTUAL healthcare). It should be there for normal, foreseeable expenses- check-ups, minor diagnostics, minor surgeries, etc...

Combined with true insurance (like a very high deductible plan- e.g. $5,000- $10,000), it would return "insurance" to it's proper role- guarding against low probability, but high cost events- and allow "pre-paid health care" to shift to actual payments. 
This.  In the Firethorn scenario of a 22 year old with massive debt, a baby and cancer the actual health costs under a traditional high deductible health plan and health savings account would be far lower than most Obamacare plans for the same treatment.
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roo_ster
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« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2017, 07:43:46 AM »

The total billed amount was $429,000. I'm pretty sure Medicare paid less than $100,000.

If he had that perception, he has it for everybody. In his rants about replacing Obamacare with Medicare, he talked about limiting the amount of care available to some so that the young people could get better care. He said that medical professionals could get together and decide what care would be most effective for which groups. The "death panels" Sarah Palin talked about.

And lefty types wonder why most folks don't trust them to make life/death decisions for others.

Not sure what an HSP is, so I'm going to assume you meant health savings account (HSA).

The purpose of HSA's is to pay for healthcare (ACTUAL healthcare). It should be there for normal, foreseeable expenses- check-ups, minor diagnostics, minor surgeries, etc...

Combined with true insurance (like a very high deductible plan- e.g. $5,000- $10,000), it would return "insurance" to it's proper role- guarding against low probability, but high cost events- and allow "pre-paid health care" to shift to actual payments.  

I work at Megacorp and we have always had some really good health insurance options.  I usually chose the best since getting married as I did not want to have to spend skull sweat gaming the system.  

What we have now is essentially as you describe: HSA plus big honking deductible catastrophic nsurance.  I will find it more than a little amusing if that is the end result of Obamacare: killing off all traditional health insurance in favor of catastrophic plans for all, HSAs, and some sort of subsidy for the indigent.  And maybe medicare and medicaid getting destroyed in the mix.  Hell, might as well toss the VA into the fire, too.  We end up with pretty much the most aggressively libertarian solution plus some subsidies.  Because everything else has been broken and/or exhausted of funds so that is all we can afford.

Maybe then lefties would acquire an appreciation for "unintended consequences."
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wmenorr67
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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2017, 09:43:46 AM »

If we could just get the lawyers and accountants out of the medical field.
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MillCreek
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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2017, 11:04:35 AM »

If we could just get the lawyers and accountants out of just about any the medical field.

Fixed.
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DittoHead
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« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2017, 12:24:12 PM »

medical professionals could get together and decide what care would be most effective for which groups.
I gotta say, this doesn't sound like a bad thing...
The "death panels" Sarah Palin talked about.
shocked
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On a vast scale, members of the Republican base are defending behavior from Trump that would shock and appall them if it came from a Democratic president.
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