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Author Topic: Trump accuses Obama of tapping Trump Tower phones  (Read 2451 times)
DittoHead
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« Reply #75 on: March 20, 2017, 08:44:18 AM »

Investigation confirmed:
Quote from: James Comey
I have been authorized by the Department of Justice to confirm that the FBI, as part of our counterintelligence mission, is investigating the Russian government's efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election and that includes investigating the nature of any links between individuals associated with the Trump campaign and the Russian government and whether there was any coordination between the campaign and Russia's efforts. As with any counterintelligence investigation, this will also include an assessment of whether any crimes were committed.
Nothing from Comey to support wiretapping accusations:
Quote from: James Comey
With respect to the president's tweets about alleged wiretapping directed at him by the prior administration, I have no information that supports those tweets and we have looked carefully inside the FBI. The Department of Justice has asked me to share with you that the answer is the same for the Department of Justice and all its components. The department has no information that supports those tweets.
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scout26
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« Reply #76 on: March 20, 2017, 08:47:12 AM »

Show the FISA court records and then we'll know that it never happened.  rolleyes rolleyes
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MechAg94
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« Reply #77 on: March 20, 2017, 12:14:07 PM »

I thought what was said previously was the FISA court approved an investigation warrant which didn't mention Trump, but only people working for him.  That opens the door to wire tapping the entire team so we'll see.  I am sure when one of those people called Trump, the wire tapping disconnected.
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Hawkmoon
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« Reply #78 on: March 20, 2017, 02:19:31 PM »

What's instructive is what Comey DIDN'T say.

Quote
With respect to the president's tweets about alleged wiretapping directed at him by the prior administration, I have no information that supports those tweets and we have looked carefully inside the FBI.

So the NSA and the CIA and the DIA and whatever other alphabet agencies out there have wiretapping capability haven't told Comey directly that they tapped Trump Tower, and Comey told his secretary to ask the guy at the next desk if he knew about anyone in the FBI wiretapping Trump Tower and the guy said no. So Comey (maybe) hasn't lied -- but we don't know that there were no wiretaps.

There's an old saying: "The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
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DittoHead
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« Reply #79 on: March 20, 2017, 03:34:10 PM »

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
True, but it's going to be really hard to prove a negative.  The burden of proof is not on Comey or congress even though he tried to punt it to them, it's on Trump.
He made the accusation, he's the one who should be able to back it up with something.
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230RN
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« Reply #80 on: March 21, 2017, 04:32:49 AM »

I wonder if perhaps it was Trump's own private security people who may have discovered the tapping.  The ABCXYZ agencies might not be privy to that, hence have "no evidence."

It is his own building, after all.

Or the Trump group may have "pulled a Midway" on potential wire tappers.  You give out false information on your suspected lines and see if it gets out or your opponent's behavior changes according to the misinformation.  I refer to the U.S. ploy to determine where the Japanese intended to attack in WWII.  We sent out false information in the clear that the water system on Midway had broken down.  Since we had broken the Japanese code, when the Japanese reported that Midway was short of water, we knew they intended to hit Midway.  

Once again, ABCXYZ would not know of something like this.

"I am sure when one of those people called Trump, the wire tapping disconnected"

That fairly drips with sarcasm, don't it?  

Terry
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mellestad
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« Reply #81 on: March 21, 2017, 07:43:07 AM »

I can't imagine Trump showing any restraint if he actually had evidence--especially if it was privately acquired. He'd be announcing that crap from the rooftops asap.

He's on a fishing expedition and he's coming up dry, so far.

I wonder if Obama could sue him for libel? Probably hard to prove damages since the only people who would believe the tweets without seeing evidence first already think Obama's a secret gay imam Nazi traitor.  rolleyes
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scout26
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« Reply #82 on: March 21, 2017, 09:24:04 AM »

I can't imagine Trump showing any restraint if he actually had evidence--especially if it was privately acquired. He'd be announcing that crap from the rooftops asap.

He's on a fishing expedition and he's coming up dry, so far.

I wonder if Obama could sue him for libel? Probably hard to prove damages since the only people who would believe the tweets without seeing evidence first already think Obama's a secret gay imam Nazi traitor.  rolleyes

He didn't come up dry.  It did come out that the DoJ went to a FISA court in June to monitor ("Wiretap") the Trump organization and got rejected.  They went back in Oct with a narrower request (fewer people as targets) and it was approved.  So there was "wiretapping" done of the Trump Tower communications, however "narrowly" focused it was....
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Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on for the motherland.
mellestad
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« Reply #83 on: March 22, 2017, 09:58:46 AM »

He didn't come up dry.  It did come out that the DoJ went to a FISA court in June to monitor ("Wiretap") the Trump organization and got rejected.  They went back in Oct with a narrower request (fewer people as targets) and it was approved.  So there was "wiretapping" done of the Trump Tower communications, however "narrowly" focused it was....

That's a chicken and egg thing. Those claims are what got Trump fired up in the first place, not the evidence of them. As far as I know the FBI says that never happened and no actual sources for that claim have been found by anyone reputable.

Trump seems to have used the Brietbart article as his source for these claims in the first place, sent out Tweets, promised that he had evidence, which hasn't yet happened.

Has something else come up in the past two weeks that changes that? I just did some Googling and I don't see anything since the initial Tweetstorm. This has a decent timeline: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/03/05/trumps-evidence-for-obama-wiretap-claims-relies-on-sketchy-anonymously-sourced-reports/?utm_term=.52dcf0c692f8

The only things that have changed since March 6th when that was written is the FBI officially says that didn't happen, and the two head people on the intelligence committee (R and D) have said they're not aware of that taking place.
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mellestad
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« Reply #84 on: March 22, 2017, 10:01:50 AM »

Also, Comey's the guy who went after Hillary and called her out in front of God and everyone on the nightly news--he's not an anti-conservative partisan so I don't know why he'd be standing up for Obama in these circumstances, unless you get all  Tinfoil Hat Smiley Tinfoil Hat Smiley Tinfoil Hat Smiley.
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Jocassee
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« Reply #85 on: March 22, 2017, 10:14:19 AM »

Something weird is up folks.

Quote
Nunes said the surveillance appears to have been legal, incidental collection and that it does not appear to have been related to concerns over collusion with Russia.

Quote
If this has nothing to do with Russia, then I assume it's part of a domestic criminal investigation -- and so I'm confused about the "incidental collection" part. I get that if you're talking about intercepting the Russian ambassador's calls; I don't get the usage in a domestic criminal case.

Also -- what crime?

Or -- are calls just generally intercepted?

http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=368959

More here

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MechAg94
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« Reply #86 on: March 22, 2017, 11:26:11 AM »

That's a chicken and egg thing. Those claims are what got Trump fired up in the first place, not the evidence of them. As far as I know the FBI says that never happened and no actual sources for that claim have been found by anyone reputable.

Trump seems to have used the Brietbart article as his source for these claims in the first place, sent out Tweets, promised that he had evidence, which hasn't yet happened.

Has something else come up in the past two weeks that changes that? I just did some Googling and I don't see anything since the initial Tweetstorm. This has a decent timeline: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/03/05/trumps-evidence-for-obama-wiretap-claims-relies-on-sketchy-anonymously-sourced-reports/?utm_term=.52dcf0c692f8

The only things that have changed since March 6th when that was written is the FBI officially says that didn't happen, and the two head people on the intelligence committee (R and D) have said they're not aware of that taking place.
Is the FBI the only intelligency agency that would go to the FISA court?  The genesis of this is leaked conversations in the media that appeared to come from someone who monitored the conversation.  If not the FBI, then the culprits are keeping quiet.

The intelligence committee people wouldn't necessarily know anything so "not aware" is a political non-answer. 
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mellestad
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« Reply #87 on: March 22, 2017, 11:54:30 AM »

New stuff just out today. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/03/22/trump-team-communications-captured-by-intelligence-community-surveillance-nunes-says.html

So there was some spying that collected some things about Trumps team, at least. I guess we have to wait and see--either that means Trumps team was targeted, or they were caught up in all the Russia stuff being monitored, or both.

Interesting to see how things will shake down between this and the new Manafort stuff coming out of the AP today.
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DittoHead
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« Reply #88 on: March 22, 2017, 12:01:31 PM »

Quote from: Devin Nunes
“From what I know right now, it looks like incidental collection,” Nunes said. “We don’t know exactly how that was picked up, but we’re trying to get to the bottom of it.”

“What I’ve read seems to me to be some level of surveillance activity, perhaps legal. I don’t know that it’s right,”

"President-elect Trump and his team were put into intelligence reports. It’s probably fine, but the president himself needs to see this because clearly there was surveillance that was conducted"
Seems like Nunes kept things vague enough to spin however one might want
Outside of the White House on Wednesday, Nunes confirmed his opinion that Trump was not wiretapped in the sense the president meant with his March 4 tweet.

Though the media, and the political opposition, had attacked Trump for his claims about wiretapping, he later clarified that he had used the term to refer to surveillance in a general sense. He also suggested that more evidence would soon emerge. The result is a vindication of Trump’s controversial claims.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 01:24:52 PM by DittoHead » Logged

We may rapidly be approaching the sort of Rubicon that our spiritual forebears faced: Choose Caesar or God. I take no pleasure in this prospect; I pray against it. But it is worth noting that such times have historically been rejuvenating for the faith.
zxcvbob
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« Reply #89 on: March 22, 2017, 12:18:49 PM »

There's another possibility; someone was surveilling the Trump campaign (legally or illegally) and made a note of what Russians the Trumpsters were talking to.  Now they manufacture a reason to surveil those particular Russians, capturing the communications they really want by "accident".

It's not much different than police making up a probable cause or exigent circumstance after-the-fact to sanitize evidence that they collected illegally.
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« Reply #90 on: March 22, 2017, 02:34:12 PM »

What I love about this whole story is that when it's Trump claiming to be wire-tapped (when it turns out that everyone around him really WAS being wire-tapped, and he may have just barely missed being a target), conspiracy talk is bad, crazy, and dishonest. When the Left is claiming that Trump takes orders from, or owes his election to, the Russians (with no evidence yet forth-coming), conspiracy talk is quite in vogue. Whatever you do, don't remind the Left that Hillary Clinton claimed to be the victim of a conspiracy. And not just any conspiracy, but a vast - VAST! - conspiracy.  laugh
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« Reply #91 on: March 22, 2017, 03:47:34 PM »

Details of private phone calls that Trump and Flynn engaged in were leaked to media.

That's not speculation, it was in the news.

Considering his accusation the assumption is that Trump and Flynn were in Trump Tower during those calls so he made the logical connection.

The rest is just smoke and mirrors to confuse the issue.
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« Reply #92 on: March 23, 2017, 03:49:24 PM »

Some more info. If what is implied turns out to be hard evidence, the dems will have the "Watergate v2" they wanted, just not how they wanted it.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/03/23/potential-smoking-gun-showing-obama-administration-spied-on-trump-team-source-says.html
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Warren
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« Reply #93 on: March 23, 2017, 04:35:54 PM »

I'm not a Trump fan but I love what he does to the left.

Ever since he made those tweets the left has been doing their "har har har, look at this idiot" shtick while parroting "No proof! No proof!" but then we find out there is proof of the surveillance and now the left has to backpedal or find other things to pretend to be outraged about, all the while looking like absolute morons. 

I don't know if these accusations against BHO will stick any better than any of the other things have but it does add to his legacy (negacy?) and there is a chance he can legally hurt by this.
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« Reply #94 on: March 24, 2017, 06:02:11 AM »

Nunes is now walking back his "bombshell" a bit:
Quote
On Wednesday, Nunes (R-Tulare) said that names of transition team members had come up in conversations that were referred to in U.S. intelligence documents summarizing surveillance. But until Nunes sees the actual documents, he does not know whether any of the transition officials were actually part of the surveilled conversations or were just talked about by others, spokesman Jack Langer said Thursday.
Huh? Seems like there's a pretty big difference there!

I guess documents should be getting to the committee today, I doubt it's going to become any clearer very soon though. NRO has had a couple good summary articles on the fiasco in the past few days. Believe it or not, it's possible that both Trump was wrong and the Obama admin was abusing their "spying" tools.
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We may rapidly be approaching the sort of Rubicon that our spiritual forebears faced: Choose Caesar or God. I take no pleasure in this prospect; I pray against it. But it is worth noting that such times have historically been rejuvenating for the faith.
Hawkmoon
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« Reply #95 on: March 24, 2017, 06:50:04 AM »

And not just any conspiracy, but a vast - VAST! - conspiracy.  laugh

And not just a vast conspiracy, but a vast RIGHT WING conspiracy.  shocked
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Ben
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« Reply #96 on: March 24, 2017, 07:03:35 AM »

I just heard on the TV that Loretta Lynch signed off on the surveillance. They were emphasizing that as Nunes said, it was likely legal overall, but depending on what the documents end up being:

1) With Lynch signing off, it may in fact not be legal, or would be extremely unethical, or at the very least fishy, given her background.

2) Even if the surveillance itself turns out to be legal, the unmasking would be a violation that should be severely punished, regardless of politics (though civil servant politics appears to be the motivator here).
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« Reply #97 on: March 24, 2017, 07:22:30 AM »

Here's what I want to know. Rep. Nunes and the media have said that the Trump people were recorded as "incidental" to whatever surveillance was going on. Nunes said that this was not part of any international surveillance.

How much surveillance is going on nationwide involving how many US citizens to an extent that members of Trump's team and Trump himself were recorded "incidentally"?  What are the odds that a significant number of Trump people just happened to be recorded when the FBI or CIA or NSA were listening to half the country talk about trout fishing?

I think at least parts of this are becoming obvious. What I'm already certain of is that nobody will be punished. If there's provable involvement by anyone high up in the Obama administration, the press won't report it.

Right now, the MSM is not focusing on the fact that there was illegal activity. They're focused on the Democrat complaints that Nunes went to the press and to Trump before going to members of the committee. IOW, don't report the crime, report the whiners.
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makattak
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« Reply #98 on: March 24, 2017, 07:27:14 AM »

Right now, the MSM is not focusing on the fact that there was illegal activity. They're focused on the Democrat complaints that Nunes went to the press and to Trump before going to members of the committee. IOW, don't report the crime, report the whiners.

S.O.P.

If Republicans do something wrong, report the something. If Democrats do something wrong, report the Republicans as trying to capitalize on it.

e.g. "Republicans Pounce..."
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zxcvbob
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« Reply #99 on: March 24, 2017, 10:00:38 AM »

Here's what I want to know. Rep. Nunes and the media have said that the Trump people were recorded as "incidental" to whatever surveillance was going on. Nunes said that this was not part of any international surveillance.

How much surveillance is going on nationwide involving how many US citizens to an extent that members of Trump's team and Trump himself were recorded "incidentally"?  What are the odds that a significant number of Trump people just happened to be recorded when the FBI or CIA or NSA were listening to half the country talk about trout fishing?

I think at least parts of this are becoming obvious. What I'm already certain of is that nobody will be punished. If there's provable involvement by anyone high up in the Obama administration, the press won't report it.

Right now, the MSM is not focusing on the fact that there was illegal activity. They're focused on the Democrat complaints that Nunes went to the press and to Trump before going to members of the committee. IOW, don't report the crime, report the whiners.

The "incidental" part can be orchestrated.

What I'm wondering right now: is Trump clever enough to float the unsubstantiated accusations (that we all criticized him about) and then let them just sit there, saying he'll provide evidence in a few weeks, to give Comey and Brennan (etc) an opportunity to perjure themselves?
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