Author Topic: We're doomed.  (Read 21831 times)

mtnbkr

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2017, 08:30:07 PM »
On the "we're doomed" line- most children are not taught to write or read cursive. (http://www.eonline.com/news/481596/cursive-handwriting-will-no-longer-be-taught-in-schools-because-it-s-a-big-old-waste-of-time) (Note that COMMON CORE is dictating this move.)

I know, we're just beyond such things now because computers (as the stupid "e" article claims), except:

http://www.npr.org/2016/04/17/474525392/attention-students-put-your-laptops-away

Oh hey, look at that. Writing out notes is far better for learning and retention than typing them.

What an interesting unintended consequence.

As someone who hates writing in cursive (and writing in general), I'm not too worked up over this.  One can write notes in block letters (I did it all through college and grad school).  Cursive, even good cursive, is just guaranteeing nobody else will be able to read your writing.  I'm 43 and for the last 30-odd years, the only cursive I've written voluntarily was my signature (which is barely writing).  If there's a concrete need for it, I haven't run into it yet.  FWIW, I encourage my kids to "study with a pencil", so the practice didn't die with cursive.  Block letters work just fine for that.

Chris

K Frame

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #51 on: March 15, 2017, 08:43:15 PM »
There are times when I'll still sit down with a pen and legal pad and write a draft of something...

A story outline, a note to someone, whatever.

When I'm really paying attention to the ideas instead of the the writing, I end up with a very weird mix of cursive AND printed -- often with partial words in both... sometimes a single printed letter in the middle of a written word...

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Hawkmoon

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #52 on: March 15, 2017, 09:23:22 PM »
My wristwatch is solar powered, tells both analog and digital time in all time zones, ...

 ??? Is analog time different from digital time? Who knew?
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230RN

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #53 on: March 15, 2017, 09:42:57 PM »
RevDisk informed us:

Quote
NIST does a bunch of stuff, but they also control time. Quite literally. Though they share that control with Paris. NIST runs the master clocks for the entire US, and most of the world. GPS relies on NIST time. All of modern technology depends on time, and anyone with a brain gets their time using NTP or GPS.

The actual atomic clock is situated in the NIST building off Broadway in Boulder, Co.  The time signals generated thereby were transmitted through a subchannel of one of the Denver TV stations up to the time transmitters located in Fort Collins CO.

OK, so the Boulder Amateur Radio Club (BARC) used to have its meetings in their auditorium and they used to have a large digital display of the atomic clock time over the main entrance, just past the guard station.

Every time I went in there for a meeting, I'd make a big show of looking back and forth from my watch to the display until I caught the guards' attention, and then point to the display and  tell them, "It's slow."

Yeah, I know, I'm an

« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 10:01:02 PM by 230RN »

Perd Hapley

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #54 on: March 15, 2017, 10:26:59 PM »
Cursive, even good cursive, is just guaranteeing nobody else will be able to read your writing.

That's not true, but even if it were, a lot of writing isn't meant for other people to read.


There are times when I'll still sit down with a pen and legal pad and write a draft of something...

A story outline, a note to someone, whatever.

When I'm really paying attention to the ideas instead of the the writing, I end up with a very weird mix of cursive AND printed -- often with partial words in both... sometimes a single printed letter in the middle of a written word...

Same here, but I find it hard to avoid mixing the two styles, even when I try. The only time I do it intentionally is that some of the capital letters I'll rarely do in cursive. If a word starts with a capital I or G, for example, I'll often write the capital letter in block, and write the rest of the word in cursive.
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230RN

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #55 on: March 16, 2017, 12:11:18 AM »
At one point I was going to change my name to "Illegible Scrawl"

mtnbkr

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #56 on: March 16, 2017, 05:54:46 AM »
That's not true, but even if it were, a lot of writing isn't meant for other people to read.

True.  Still, nobody has articulated to me yet why cursive is worthy of the time and effort in today's world other than "reasons".  What are the concrete benefits?  Keeping in mind, I learned it in school, found it a waste of time, and went back to block letters for my personal writing needs.  So far, I haven't been held back in life.

And if you want to say it's a "character" thing or part of being a well-rounded scholar/human/meat-popsicle, I'm sure we can come up with numerous other "skills" that are more worthy of the effort.

Chris

mtnbkr

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #57 on: March 16, 2017, 05:55:01 AM »
At one point I was going to change my name to "Illegible Scrawl"

You too, eh? :D

Chris

K Frame

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #58 on: March 16, 2017, 07:10:19 AM »
Question about the atomic clock... specifically the time signal.

How do they adjust for the time lag between a clock 10 miles away receiving the signal vs a clock in, say, Eastport, Maine, about 2,300 air miles away?

Even though the signal travels at 186,000 miles per second, there's still a measurable lag.

And, if it's used to establish time for the GPS satellite network, that's even more of a signal lag
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #59 on: March 16, 2017, 07:45:57 AM »
Question about the atomic clock... specifically the time signal.

How do they adjust for the time lag between a clock 10 miles away receiving the signal vs a clock in, say, Eastport, Maine, about 2,300 air miles away?

Even though the signal travels at 186,000 miles per second, there's still a measurable lag.

And, if it's used to establish time for the GPS satellite network, that's even more of a signal lag

Negative vibes, always with the negative vibes...

https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/nist-radio-broadcasts-frequently-asked-questions-faq

Quote
When I listen to WWV or WWVH, how accurate is the time?
The time is kept to within less than 0.0001 milliseconds of Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) at the transmitter site, but the signal is delayed as it travels from the radio station to your location. This delay increases the further that you are from the station, and the delay can vary by as much as 1 millisecond if the signal is bouncing between Earth and the ionosphere. However, for most users in the United States, the received accuracy should be less than 10 milliseconds (1/100 of a second).
Listening to the signals by telephone, the delays will be larger, but the time is usually accurate to within 30 milliseconds if you are using a landline. If you are using a cellular phone or a voice over Internet protocol (VOIP) connection, the delay can be much larger, but should still not exceed 150 milliseconds, based on International Telecommunication Union (ITU) recommendations for voice transmissions.


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TommyGunn

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2017, 10:04:09 AM »
A few years ago I got a digital weather station that has the time that is set automatically from the atomic clock. You can also buy a variety of desk and wall clocks that set themselves to the atomic clock.

That's neat, but your cell phone does exactly the same thing.


At one time there were also shortwave and ham band radio time check channels. I'll be damned, NIST still does it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWV_(radio_station)

I had a clock radio that "set"  from the atomic clock.    It kept messing up on the date, a function you didn't see on the display unless you pressed a button.   This was important since day of week was set by the date function, and the alarm was set NOT  to go off on weekends.  But if the date function is wrong and it's monday,  but the clock thinks it's saturday,  no alarm.
I got rid of it and use a cheap  Timex clock radio with those red diode segments digital display.   Works great and keeps good time even if non-atomic.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2017, 10:32:44 AM »
True.  Still, nobody has articulated to me yet why cursive is worthy of the time and effort in today's world other than "reasons".  What are the concrete benefits?  Keeping in mind, I learned it in school, found it a waste of time, and went back to block letters for my personal writing needs.  So far, I haven't been held back in life.


Just for perspective, that's been said about almost every subject taught in schools: music class, P.E., foreign languages, The Scarlet Letter, Hamlet, and the various branches of math and science, to name a few.

I think the usual answer is that people (or a lot of them) can write more quickly in cursive. Personally, I just find cursive easier, for the most part. Block letters are a little more like work. Cursive is comfortable. One letter flows into the next. YMMV

The obvious, not-so-personal answer to your question is "basic literacy." Cursive script is part of the English language. Does it seem sensible to spend so many years and so much money and effort on someone's education, and after all that, they can't read their parents' hand-writing, or a hand-written note from a boss or co-worker?

Now maybe us old folks shouldn't have been using cursive all this time, but that can't be changed. But I think if cursive is going to be dropped from the curriculum, it would only make sense if it were accompanied by a campaign to make people stop writing it. From my cold, dead hands...
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Ben

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #62 on: March 16, 2017, 10:35:27 AM »
True.  Still, nobody has articulated to me yet why cursive is worthy of the time and effort in today's world other than "reasons".  What are the concrete benefits?  Keeping in mind, I learned it in school, found it a waste of time, and went back to block letters for my personal writing needs.  So far, I haven't been held back in life.

And if you want to say it's a "character" thing or part of being a well-rounded scholar/human/meat-popsicle, I'm sure we can come up with numerous other "skills" that are more worthy of the effort.

Chris

If I recall (and it may not be correctly) cursive was/is supposed to be a quicker and more efficient way to write. I'm also someone who switched to printing sometime past high school (we were always told typing or cursive for reports). I really have no idea why I switched - maybe because of my left-handedness, but I find printing easier for me (plus there's the legibility thing). I print in all caps, also don't know why, but that's just the way I started.

With the understanding that there is no real need for cursive, I find myself a little sad that it's disappearing.

On a tangent, I used to hate typing with a typewriter. Even though I don't type "correctly", I really took to typing on a computer keyboard. They weren't available until my Junior year in High School though, and then it was a teletype station with a big roll of paper.
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RevDisk

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #63 on: March 16, 2017, 10:43:22 AM »
RevDisk informed us:

The actual atomic clock is situated in the NIST building off Broadway in Boulder, Co.  The time signals generated thereby were transmitted through a subchannel of one of the Denver TV stations up to the time transmitters located in Fort Collins CO.

OK, so the Boulder Amateur Radio Club (BARC) used to have its meetings in their auditorium and they used to have a large digital display of the atomic clock time over the main entrance, just past the guard station.

Every time I went in there for a meeting, I'd make a big show of looking back and forth from my watch to the display until I caught the guards' attention, and then point to the display and  tell them, "It's slow."

Yeah, I know, I'm an

Ok, that is funny. I hope the guards laughed.

I thought that the US had two official master clocks, just in case. Apparently that wasn't the case but now is again. NIST-F1 was the solo official US master clock. But now NIST-F2 is operational and planned to be accurate to 1 second every 300 million years. The backup is the U.S. Naval Observatory master clock in DC, and the USNO Alternate Master Clock in Colorado. 

I'm kicking myself for not going for a tour last time I was in Boulder. How was it?


Question about the atomic clock... specifically the time signal.

How do they adjust for the time lag between a clock 10 miles away receiving the signal vs a clock in, say, Eastport, Maine, about 2,300 air miles away?

Even though the signal travels at 186,000 miles per second, there's still a measurable lag.

And, if it's used to establish time for the GPS satellite network, that's even more of a signal lag

For radio, you do indeed get lag. You calculate it by your distance from the transmitter. It's a fixed variable, as the US is only growing by 1cm per year. Give or take. It's a rough estimate, but generally within tens of milliseconds. Which isn't bad. NTP is similar accuracy. If it's important enough to matter, they've already factored it in.

With GPS, the lag is the source of the accuracy and why you need multiple satellites. You compare the transmissions from the different sources and you get a location. Nifty thing is, the entire system is dependent on super accurate timing. Tens of nanosecond range, rather than millisecond. The amount of lag isn't important, it's how precisely you can measure the lag that defines the accuracy. In another five years, we'll have GNSS receivers that can use GPS, GLONASS, Galileo and BeiDou-2.

Nifty bit of trivia, GPS compensates for Relativistic speed impact on time.

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Nick1911

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #64 on: March 16, 2017, 10:49:37 AM »
I actually have a rubidium frequency standard in a box in the basement.  The price was right, although I haven't found a use for it.  Figure it could be used for calibrating test equipment or something.

Not quite a caesium fountain, but still kinda neat to have an actual atomic clock :-)

MechAg94

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #65 on: March 16, 2017, 11:57:03 AM »
Personally, I think cursive writing is still a useful tool to teach.  I think kids would learn better without being in front of a computer all the time anyway.  Learn to write their thoughts down by hand. 

I use printed letters a lot, but mostly so that others could read my writing.  I read it fine, but my writing tends to be a bit sloppy.  I still use cursive for writing notes or to do lists and such.
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makattak

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #66 on: March 16, 2017, 01:32:23 PM »
As someone who hates writing in cursive (and writing in general), I'm not too worked up over this.  One can write notes in block letters (I did it all through college and grad school).  Cursive, even good cursive, is just guaranteeing nobody else will be able to read your writing.  I'm 43 and for the last 30-odd years, the only cursive I've written voluntarily was my signature (which is barely writing).  If there's a concrete need for it, I haven't run into it yet.  FWIW, I encourage my kids to "study with a pencil", so the practice didn't die with cursive.  Block letters work just fine for that.

Chris

But you can READ cursive, correct?

The best way to be able to read it is to be able to produce it oneself. The problem is not only that they can't write it, but they can't read it, either.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

mtnbkr

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #67 on: March 16, 2017, 01:55:08 PM »
But you can READ cursive, correct?

The best way to be able to read it is to be able to produce it oneself. The problem is not only that they can't write it, but they can't read it, either.

Depends on the scribe. 

Again, I point out that writing or reading cursive is not a particularly valuable skill these days.  And, unlike knowing a dead language like Latin, or understanding the Krebs Cycle, doesn't really contribute to a larger understanding of the world and how it works.  I suppose if you stumbled across  a letter written in cursive, it might be unfortunate that you can't read it, but it would be the same as if that letter was written in Sanskrit.  That doesn't imply I should go out and learn Sanskrit, eh?

I think a lot of this smacks of "by jiminy, if it was good enough for me, it's good enough for these whippersnappers".  Nobody has yet articulated where being adept in writing cursive solves real world problems.  I'd rather my kids focus on the 3 Rs, or learn how to manage a budget, balance a checkbook, or even check the oil on their car before they worry about cursive writing.

Chris

makattak

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #68 on: March 16, 2017, 02:12:03 PM »
Depends on the scribe. 

Again, I point out that writing or reading cursive is not a particularly valuable skill these days.  And, unlike knowing a dead language like Latin, or understanding the Krebs Cycle, doesn't really contribute to a larger understanding of the world and how it works.  I suppose if you stumbled across  a letter written in cursive, it might be unfortunate that you can't read it, but it would be the same as if that letter was written in Sanskrit.  That doesn't imply I should go out and learn Sanskrit, eh?

I think a lot of this smacks of "by jiminy, if it was good enough for me, it's good enough for these whippersnappers".  Nobody has yet articulated where being adept in writing cursive solves real world problems.  I'd rather my kids focus on the 3 Rs, or learn how to manage a budget, balance a checkbook, or even check the oil on their car before they worry about cursive writing.

Chris

Actually, I'm noting that being unable to read or write in cursive doesn't appear to be beneficial, and I'm not keen on jettisoning it because some people believe it has no use now.

Why don't we also throw out grammar rules because technology has clearly progressed beyond them, u no wut im sain?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

K Frame

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #69 on: March 16, 2017, 02:13:48 PM »
"That doesn't imply I should go out and learn Sanskrit, eh?"

Well yes, it does. How else would you gain a greater knowledge of the world and unlock the knowledge contained in that letter?

Luddite.

:rofl:


Oh, and it's very nice that you'd go to all the trouble to lean Sanskrit just so that you could read Mrs. Patel's shopping list.
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KD5NRH

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #70 on: March 16, 2017, 02:18:49 PM »
I actually have a rubidium frequency standard in a box in the basement.  The price was right, although I haven't found a use for it.  Figure it could be used for calibrating test equipment or something.

Build it into a Radio Shack alarm clock, stuff the whole mess in a small briefcase and take it to school to show off.

K Frame

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #71 on: March 16, 2017, 02:21:13 PM »
"Why don't we also throw out grammar rules because technology has clearly progressed beyond them, u no wut im sain?"

I'm a wordsmith in a world largely populated by people like Mtnbkr -- computer/system people.

Unfortunately, especially among the younger ones, there is a decided leaning toward exactly that -- why do we need to know this crap (anything that isn't expressed in 1s and 0s)?

Some time ago one of them was asked to prepare a white paper for presentation to our customer. No one in the project team thought to either check the paper before it was submitted, run it past one of the people on my team, just let him run with it and send it directly to the customer.

It was a *expletive deleted*ing disaster, and gave that customer a VERY poor opinion of our program.

I'd say the guy's paper was unintelligible, but it would have to have been several degrees BETTER to achieve unintelligible.
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mtnbkr

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #72 on: March 16, 2017, 02:25:29 PM »
Actually, I'm noting that being unable to read or write in cursive doesn't appear to be beneficial, and I'm not keen on jettisoning it because some people believe it has no use now.

Why don't we also throw out grammar rules because technology has clearly progressed beyond them, u no wut im sain?

There is clearly a difference between modes of handwriting, and grammar rules and spelling. This is not a technology concern, but one of utility.  There is no inherent value, that has been articulated to me, in cursive vs other means of writing other than some people seem very attached to it.  Frankly, it reminds of the Morse Code arguments involving amateur radio operators, but at least they can articulate concrete benefits (lower power requirements, ability to communicate through interference that would inhibit voice comms, etc).

Again, I'd rather see the time devoted to teaching skills that are otherwise ignored.  How about some basic economics or provide a greater understanding in how credit works?  Oh, we need to devote weeks to penmanship instead.

Chris

mtnbkr

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #73 on: March 16, 2017, 02:27:48 PM »
"Why don't we also throw out grammar rules because technology has clearly progressed beyond them, u no wut im sain?"

I'm a wordsmith in a world largely populated by people like Mtnbkr -- computer/system people.

Unfortunately, especially among the younger ones, there is a decided leaning toward exactly that -- why do we need to know this crap (anything that isn't expressed in 1s and 0s)?

Some time ago one of them was asked to prepare a white paper for presentation to our customer. No one in the project team thought to either check the paper before it was submitted, run it past one of the people on my team, just let him run with it and send it directly to the customer.

It was a *expletive deleted*ing disaster, and gave that customer a VERY poor opinion of our program.

I'd say the guy's paper was unintelligible, but it would have to have been several degrees BETTER to achieve unintelligible.

I don't tolerate that sort of thing in my Org and I insist on peer review of documents and presentations.  This is on top of having our own documentation and compliance team (something I spearheaded I might add).

Chris

Perd Hapley

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Re: We're doomed.
« Reply #74 on: March 16, 2017, 03:00:04 PM »
mtnbkr,

I gave an explanation up near the top of this page. Essentially, it's because cursive is still in common use, by people just a couple of decades older than your kids (and maybe even by their peers, for all I know). That is, the people they'll be working for and with in years to come. Being able to read cursive is still a part of basic literacy for English-speaking people. Learning to read a language or alphabet usually goes along with being able to write it. You learn one along with the other.

By jiminy.

Also, your kids might be glad they learned cursive, since it's easier to write than printing.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 03:21:40 PM by fistful »
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