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Author Topic: We're doomed.  (Read 9324 times)
Mike Irwin
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« Reply #125 on: March 19, 2017, 05:22:47 AM »

"That the two of you don't recall seeing it is hardly concrete. It's not a detail anyone would expect you to remember, if you had seen it."

You forget what I do for a living. I make my life with words, and have done so at the time in our history when words handwritten on paper have been ever more quickly replaced by the tapping of keys on a keyboard. It's part and parcel to who I am, and what I do, so yes, I remember.




You don't understand what a "concrete observation" is, do you, Fistful?

A concrete observation is NOT proof of a standard practice industry wide (which is what you seem to think I have said), it is a verifiable observation based on personal experience.

As such, I gave you two concrete examples in the business world where cursive is an anachronism.


The difference between what you're claiming and what I'm claiming is, once again, I have examples to back up my position that continue into today.

You, on the other hand, don't.

You've not provided a single example of a business where cursive is still routinely used for everyday business practices, where employees need to both know, and practice, it.

Your "proof" can best be categorized as wild ass guesses, suppositions, personal theories.

So, once again, give us ONE example of a business where cursive writing is critical to that businesses' every day operations.

And, saying "I saw the counter guy jot down a bunch of notes and he wrote them out!" That's not a business practice. That's one guy taking notes.



"We learn to read and write so we can communicate with family and friends as well, and I've referred to cursive's role in that."

So.... someone who doesn't learn cursive writing, but can print, can no longer communicate with family and friends? Because knowing how to print somehow equals illiteracy?

You've really got to explain how that works.
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Mike Irwin
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« Reply #126 on: March 19, 2017, 05:28:20 AM »


Ohhhhhhkay, if you wanna go down that road, I'm all for the school districts deciding their own curriculum, with minimal guidance from the state, and none from the Feds. And, no, I'm not saying the states should dictate cursive instruction.

But, if learning cursive is such a critical life skill that civilization will collapse without it, why wouldn't you want the Federal government to force schools to teach cursive?

After all, it's apparently the single most vital skill required for communicating with family and friends.
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Mike Irwin
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« Reply #127 on: March 19, 2017, 05:35:49 AM »

I think the main purpose of cursive I'd to be able to write notes for yourself quickly, sounds like a pretty useful skill to me.
Unless in remembering incorrectly, I'm pretty sure that I learned cursive very early on in elementary. Exactly what "important" classes are being skipped over because they are teaching cursive at that time?

Exactly. Cursive developed because it's faster to write by hand and to print for most people.

As for exactly what important classes are being skipped over, perhaps none.

But what classes are truly being supported by the teaching of cursive anymore?

I submit that the answer is none.
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Mike Irwin
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« Reply #128 on: March 19, 2017, 05:37:01 AM »

" My check register has slipped back behind the year.  Nearly everything I pay for is electronic."

I've not actually hand written a check in.... 3 years?

No, not the case. I forgot I wrote a check from my HEL to pay for the first installment of the new siding on the house.
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Ben
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« Reply #129 on: March 19, 2017, 05:49:44 AM »


I strongly suspect this is the root of cursive.  Not so much that it was easier, but it presented less opportunity for "drips"?

Chris

That's a really good point, which I say as a left-handed person. I can't say for sure, but I think smearing may have been one of the reasons I migrated to printing, where it's easier to hold my hand "over" the text as I write. Especially because my hand follows the ink, unlike a righty, whose hand leads the ink. In fact printing may be just enough slower than cursive to allow the ink to dry a bit more before my paw reaches it. With certain pens, I still smear with printing.

I now kind of wonder if I would have (given my age) switched to printing if I was right-handed. I was also someone who learned cursive in the second (I think) grade, and the teacher's critical harassment of my writing is something I remember to this day - mainly the position and angles of the various letters. Just watch most any lefty's hand as they write in cursive. It looks like we're trying to snap our own wrist.


On the e-pad signatures - mine looks way different than my check signatures. It's nearly impossible for me to write the same with the e-pen on a monitor as it is to write pen to paper. Plus I have a long last name and I always see cashiers looking impatient as I try to write my name the same as I do for checks. I've even had a couple say "you can just put whatever you want there".  laugh  I now just do a little hieroglyphic that takes a couple of seconds and looks like it came from a different person.
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Mike Irwin
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« Reply #130 on: March 19, 2017, 06:04:01 AM »

I'm also left handed.

And, for most of my college career, I took notes with fountain pens because I could never find a ballpoint pen that wrote nearly as well as any of my fountain pens.

I always used the finest nibs I could find, these days they would probably be called accounting nibs -- fines or superfines.

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cordex
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« Reply #131 on: March 19, 2017, 06:21:06 AM »

So, once again, give us ONE example of a business where cursive writing is critical to that businesses' every day operations.
Law.  At least all the lawyers I work with use it very heavily as a way to quickly annotate documents (electronic and hard copy).
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230RN
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« Reply #132 on: March 19, 2017, 06:49:46 AM »

Selected comments...

"Exactly. Cursive developed because it's faster to write by hand and [sic: than?] to print for most people."

Which is exactly why it morphs into unintelligibility?

"That's a really good point, which I say as a left-handed person. I can't say for sure, but I think smearing may have been one of the reasons I migrated to printing, where it's easier to hold my hand "over" the text as I write. Especially because my hand follows the ink, unlike a righty, whose hand leads the ink. In fact printing may be just enough slower than cursive to allow the ink to dry a bit more before my paw reaches it. With certain pens, I still smear with printing."

Maybe you should try the Da Vinci method.

"Illegible Scrawl"

Dang it, I wish you guys would quit stealing my jokes.  That's twice in this thread.

Terry
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It's as simple as this.  The Commies have more to offer in the concrete short term than we have in the abstract long term.  That's an easy sell.

It's just that simple.
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« Reply #133 on: March 19, 2017, 10:43:43 AM »

Mike, who is this "Fistful" guy you're talking to? He apparently put forth a very caricatured and extreme version of what I said. Boy, you sure told that guy. Get 'em, Mike!


Again, the period where cursive was transcribed to electronic means is long past.  Nothing official in the last 3 companies I worked for was captured via handwritten means.  Certainly nothing 20 years old has been kept without a very specific reason.  It certainly wouldn't have been kept in its original format.  This is due to the various internal and regulatory frameworks in which we operate.  Between documents needing to be on the correct template and stuff not being kept for more than N years without a waiver, there simply aren't "old" docs sitting around in boxes, waiting to be read.  This may be a very different business environment than you're accustomed to.

Yes, it is a different environment, where knowing cursive might be more useful than in your sphere. Please don't take this as a complaint, but more as a request for an explanation. Why does it seem as if you're saying that knowing cursive can only be relevant if it matters to the environment you work in, and whatever someone else see is not relevant? It's more than that, really, since you're also saying that the facts I told you (about boxes of documents from 20 years ago) are somehow a fiction. I'll check on Monday morning, but I'm pretty sure you can't banish the boxes by saying they don't exist.  undecided


And, saying "I saw the counter guy jot down a bunch of notes and he wrote them out!" That's not a business practice. That's one guy taking notes.

Is that another comment from that other "Fistful"? Or perhaps you're referring to the photo I posted. That wasn't "notes." It was the purchase number (or job name) that was entered (in those super-readable print letters) for a pick ticket. Unless the salesman who scribbled it also entered it into the computer, Miss Accounts Receivable will have to figure it out. It's a good thing he didn't write in cursive, idn't it?


2.  Was cursive an easier way to write with the ink quills available in past centuries? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursive#Decline_of_English_cursive_in_the_United_States
Quote
One of the earliest forms of new technology that caused the decline of handwriting was the invention of the ballpoint pen patented in 1888 by John Loud. Two brothers, Lßszlˇ and Gy÷rgy BÝrˇ further developed the pen by changing the design and using different ink that dried quickly. With their design, it was guaranteed that the ink would not smudge, as it would with the earlier design of pen and it no longer required the careful penmanship one would use with the older design of pen.
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Hawkmoon
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« Reply #134 on: March 19, 2017, 02:00:25 PM »

I suspect that transitory period passed a decade or more ago.
 Again, the period where cursive was transcribed to electronic means is long past.  Nothing official in the last 3 companies I worked for was captured via handwritten means.  Certainly nothing 20 years old has been kept without a very specific reason.  It certainly wouldn't have been kept in its original format.  This is due to the various internal and regulatory frameworks in which we operate.  Between documents needing to be on the correct template and stuff not being kept for more than N years without a waiver, there simply aren't "old" docs sitting around in boxes, waiting to be read.  This may be a very different business environment than you're accustomed to.

You keep talking about your company as if your company's needs and protocols apply to everyone, everywhere. That's just not the case. How about public records? Ever try to do a title search in a town clerk's office? Where I live, we have public records dating back to before the American Revolution. They aren't transcribed. I don't think they're even scanned -- they're just stored in a [somewhat] climate controlled, fireproof vault.

When I was researching whether or not I'm eligible for Sons of the American Revolution I got my hands on some old census records listing my grandfather and great-grandfather. Again, the records are copies of original, paper files ... in cursive.
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Mike Irwin
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Re:
« Reply #135 on: March 19, 2017, 02:55:19 PM »

OCR scanning of legal records takes lots of time and lots of money.

But just because your county isn't doing it doesn't mean that other counties are either in process, or are even done and the records are available online.

Both Chris and I work for large companies.

While they certainly don't represent all companies everywhere,  they do represent the tip of the spear when it comes to things like this.

And the process toward automation is moving forward, not backward.



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Mike Irwin
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« Reply #136 on: March 19, 2017, 03:00:15 PM »

Fistful has always been a characticure of Fistful.

It's like an infinite silliness loop, as can be seen by his continuing dancing and evading to avoid providing answers to simple, direct questions.

Bravo.

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Mike Irwin
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« Reply #137 on: March 19, 2017, 03:04:16 PM »

Law.  At least all the lawyers I work with use it very heavily as a way to quickly annotate documents (electronic and hard copy).
How do you annotate electronic records in cursive?

Write on the display with a China marker?

And I find it hard to imagine that cursive is so crucial to the process that the practice of annotation would collapse if cursive was no longer taught.

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mtnbkr
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« Reply #138 on: March 19, 2017, 03:45:05 PM »

Yes, it is a different environment, where knowing cursive might be more useful than in your sphere. Please don't take this as a complaint, but more as a request for an explanation. Why does it seem as if you're saying that knowing cursive can only be relevant if it matters to the environment you work in, and whatever someone else see is not relevant?
Not saying that at all, but I am saying the environment I work in is pretty typical of a large corporation (Fortune 500), where my specific role gives me visibility and oversight into how we store, categorize, and manage documentation over multi-year periods.  In my current role, I'm a senior manager and interact directly with various VPs in my company.  I'm in charge of the regulatory and compliance programs for the division I manage.  I am the one who hosts the auditors and develops remediation plans for the observations, or, God forbid, the non-conformities they discover.  To say this sort of thing is on my radar is an understatement.  So forgive me when I point out that we would not have boxes of 20yo documents sitting around.  In fact, our standard for document retention is 2yrs, beyond which you need an approved waiver.  Your binders full of women boxes of old documents would be a liability to us.

It's more than that, really, since you're also saying that the facts I told you (about boxes of documents from 20 years ago) are somehow a fiction. I'll check on Monday morning, but I'm pretty sure you can't banish the boxes by saying they don't exist.  undecided
You keep talking about your company as if your company's needs and protocols apply to everyone, everywhere. That's just not the case. How about public records? Ever try to do a title search in a town clerk's office? Where I live, we have public records dating back to before the American Revolution. They aren't transcribed. I don't think they're even scanned -- they're just stored in a [somewhat] climate controlled, fireproof vault.
I'm not saying they're fiction in your work life, I'm saying they wouldn't exist in mine due to the internal regulations and external regulatory environments within which we operate.  A box of 20yo documents is a liability.  My company is not unique in that respect.  The environment in which I operate is pretty common as the "best practices" and audit compliance needs non-industry-specific and commonplace in a number of markets and industries.

When I was researching whether or not I'm eligible for Sons of the American Revolution I got my hands on some old census records listing my grandfather and great-grandfather. Again, the records are copies of original, paper files ... in cursive.
Congratulations, you found a corner case.  This shall be the basis upon which we will educate our children.  rolleyes

Chris
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cordex
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« Reply #139 on: March 19, 2017, 03:54:45 PM »

How do you annotate electronic records in cursive?

Write on the display with a China marker?

And I find it hard to imagine that cursive is so crucial to the process that the practice of annotation would collapse if cursive was no longer taught.
Um ... stylus based digitizers are a thing. There is a reason that Microsoft Surfaces are popular in the legal profession.

Of course it isn't absolutely necessary to use cursive. Then again, attorneys could easily type out everything themselves but many of most still use transcription software and/or a dedicated transcriptionist because it is a little bit faster.  Being able to annotate a little quicker is worthwhile in that profession.
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Hawkmoon
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« Reply #140 on: March 19, 2017, 05:08:09 PM »

How do you annotate electronic records in cursive?

Write on the display with a China marker?

Wait -- is this the same Mike Irwin who, a couple of posts above, said "And the process toward automation is moving forward, not backward"? You don't know that there are "apps" that allow scribbling notes on a screen to annotate a digital document?
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Mike Irwin
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Re:
« Reply #141 on: March 19, 2017, 05:36:22 PM »

Jesus, get the joke people!

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230RN
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« Reply #142 on: March 19, 2017, 05:38:55 PM »

This one has run its course and in my opinion, does not reflect positively on this website.

Next thing you know, we'll be discussing whether having to dot an i in cursive defeats its purpose of having a smooth flow of writing.

As to being taught in schools?  Local choice.

 Face Palm!

Terry, 230RN
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It's as simple as this.  The Commies have more to offer in the concrete short term than we have in the abstract long term.  That's an easy sell.

It's just that simple.
Mike Irwin
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Re:
« Reply #143 on: March 19, 2017, 05:42:13 PM »

Cursive pooper!

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230RN
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« Reply #144 on: March 19, 2017, 05:50:46 PM »

<sigh>
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It's as simple as this.  The Commies have more to offer in the concrete short term than we have in the abstract long term.  That's an easy sell.

It's just that simple.
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« Reply #145 on: March 19, 2017, 06:14:30 PM »

mtnbkr, I don't think anyone's trying to tell you that your company is like some other company. I, for one, was just pointing out practices in two places where I've worked. I didn't mean to say, and I don't think anyone said, that any specific company was doing the same. I did use it as evidence to suggest it was also done by other organizations, but not yours specifically.

Mike, what simple, direct questions do you want me to answer?
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230RN
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« Reply #146 on: March 19, 2017, 06:47:40 PM »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_many_angels_can_dance_on_the_head_of_a_pin%3F#Humoristic_answers

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It's as simple as this.  The Commies have more to offer in the concrete short term than we have in the abstract long term.  That's an easy sell.

It's just that simple.
Mike Irwin
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« Reply #147 on: March 20, 2017, 02:36:01 AM »

"Mike, what simple, direct questions do you want me to answer?"

Well, since you seem to believe that the ability to read/write in cursive is somehow the lynchpin that keeps the US economy from flying apart, what industry, economic sector, job class, etc., in the United States would be devastated if schools in the United States were to stop teaching children how to read and/or write cursive?

Someone provided the example of the legal profession. But attorneys could easily replace cursive with block printing or typing, so the impact is, well... nil.

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Mike Irwin
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« Reply #148 on: March 20, 2017, 02:41:36 AM »

You know, I just thought of an industry that would be devastated were the teaching of cursive eliminated... the Chinese food industry.

If China stopped teaching cursive in their schools, how would all of those immigrant order takers get your order for lemon chicken and wonton soup?

Worse, if China stopped teaching people how to read cursive, how would the one Chinese person in the kitchen be able to read the order slip and translate it into Spanish for the 6 Hondurans who are actually doing the cooking?

Keep teaching cursive, China, lunch is coming up and I've got a hankering for shrimp lo mein!
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Mike Irwin
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« Reply #149 on: March 20, 2017, 02:43:11 AM »

This one has run its course and in my opinion, does not reflect positively on this website.

Next thing you know, we'll be discussing whether having to dot an i in cursive defeats its purpose of having a smooth flow of writing.

As to being taught in schools?  Local choice.

 Face Palm!

Terry, 230RN

See, Terry, that's your problem. You have all these high expectations...  laugh
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