Author Topic: Star Wars Canyon  (Read 2761 times)

Ben

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Star Wars Canyon
« on: April 29, 2017, 12:11:10 AM »
I was tooling around the Death Valley area the last couple of days. I never knew this existed. Father Crowley Vista Point, AKA Star Wars Canyon. Used by military aircraft to do the "womp rat manuever".

I discovered it by having an F-18 fly about 300 feet over my head as I was on the road directly at their entry point to the canyon. Nearly drove myself off a cliff.  :laugh:

I got to the observation area just in time to see two more do it before I pulled out my camera (had my Nikon D300 with a fast motor drive and an 18-200 zoom) but of course after an hour of waiting, nothing more for the day. Guys apparently just hang out there all day almost every day to catch photos and video. I looked it up just now and here's a few examples that as cool as they are, do not at all do justice to being there and watching these guys pass underneath you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hszQcP2FEAo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCebwpgkZzo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vXktvOmEE0


One from the cockpit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_I4SUNeg7s
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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2017, 03:18:16 AM »
There's a similar setup somewhere in GB.  Same kinds of turns, except it's more wooded and they come out over a lake.

Found it: Wales.  They call it the Mach Loop.

https://youtu.be/3-7zHlOi4T4

Cockpit view, takeoff to landing.

https://youtu.be/3-7zHlOi4T4 < wrong link
https://youtu.be/kT7qrYi8R_M
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 08:26:24 AM by 230RN »

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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2017, 06:32:58 AM »
There's a similar setup somewhere in GB.  Same kinds of turns, except it's more wooded and they come out over a lake.

Found it: Wales.  They call it the Mach Loop.

https://youtu.be/3-7zHlOi4T4

Cockpit view, takeoff to landing.

https://youtu.be/3-7zHlOi4T4

The Dassault was cool  :cool:
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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2017, 08:26:48 AM »
Cockpit link was wrong:
https://youtu.be/kT7qrYi8R_M

Question:  "Overbanking" at ~2:00

Is that just for reconnaissance of the ground?  Or is there an aeronautic purpose for it?

Oh, wow.  Even more dramatic vids from the ground.  Looks like some of those intakes are going to swallow you whole:

https://youtu.be/JultKcPcKjk

<gulp>


Not trying to "top" you, Ben, some just came up from the video add-ons.

Jeeze, no wonder you guys like to fly.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 08:59:22 AM by 230RN »

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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2017, 08:36:13 AM »
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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2017, 08:37:38 AM »
Quote
Question:  "Overbanking" at ~2:00

My guess, from my expert experience with video games, is that he's setting himself up for a firing solution on his wingmate.  Without, of course, the bullets.
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Fly320s

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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2017, 08:43:47 AM »
Cockpit link was wrong:
https://youtu.be/kT7qrYi8R_M

Question:  "Overbanking" at ~2:00

Is that just for reconnaissance of the ground?  Or is there an aeronautic purpose for it?

Turning to stay on course and descending.  The steep bank allows him to maintain positive G during the turn and gives the pilot better visability of what is ahead.
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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2017, 08:51:56 AM »
I thought it was all about shooting the other chap down before he shoots you down.
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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2017, 08:59:42 AM »
I thought it was all about shooting the other chap down before he shoots you down.

Mach Loop is a low altitude training run.  They might do mock ground attacks,but no dog fighting at low altitude.
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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2017, 09:26:23 AM »
Mach Loop is a low altitude training run.  They might do mock ground attacks,but no dog fighting at low altitude.

Yeah, the Hard Deck for those hops is 10,000'.  Dip below it, even for a few seconds, and you break a major rule of engagement. Viper will throw you right out.

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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2017, 10:29:14 AM »
Turning to stay on course and descending.  The steep bank allows him to maintain positive G during the turn and gives the pilot better visability of what is ahead.

I was gonna say it's a fancy brit expression for flying upside down, but that makes better sense... :D
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2017, 10:33:30 AM »
Mach Loop is a low altitude training run.  They might do mock ground attacks,but no dog fighting at low altitude.


Yeah, they don't use the Mach Loop for dog-fighting. They use the OODA Loop.
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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2017, 10:44:07 AM »
Yeah, the Hard Deck for those hops is 10,000'.  Dip below it, even for a few seconds, and you break a major rule of engagement. Viper will throw you right out.

"Hard deck my ass."

[edited to add quote marks and assure I spelled deck correctly.] :)
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Fly320s

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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2017, 10:45:54 AM »

Yeah, they don't use the Mach Loop for dog-fighting. They use the OODA Loop.

And for aerobatic training, the loop-the-loop.
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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2017, 11:17:07 AM »
There's a similar setup somewhere in GB.  Same kinds of turns, except it's more wooded and they come out over a lake.

Found it: Wales.  They call it the Mach Loop.

https://youtu.be/3-7zHlOi4T4

Cockpit view, takeoff to landing.

https://youtu.be/3-7zHlOi4T4 < wrong link
https://youtu.be/kT7qrYi8R_M

Nit pick--the Lake District is in England.
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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2017, 01:15:51 PM »
Nit pick--the Lake District is in England.


Perhaps​ Terry is a Welsh ultra-nationalist.
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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2017, 03:11:48 PM »

Perhaps​ Terry is a Welsh ultra-nationalist.

They said Wales somewhere in the captions. Maybe the fighter group was from Wales or something and I misunderstood.

I still don't get the positive gees and the lining up for an attack in the overbank.  I'll have to noodle that one out.

And I've got a couple of questions about losing altitude in a 90° bank, let alone an overbank.

Terry, groundlubber

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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2017, 06:11:36 PM »
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agricola

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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2017, 08:06:33 PM »
There's a similar setup somewhere in GB.  Same kinds of turns, except it's more wooded and they come out over a lake.

Found it: Wales.  They call it the Mach Loop.

https://youtu.be/3-7zHlOi4T4

Cockpit view, takeoff to landing.

https://youtu.be/3-7zHlOi4T4 < wrong link
https://youtu.be/kT7qrYi8R_M

Have been there a few times (its in and around Snowdonia, the planes usually fly out of / to RAF Valley on Anglesey and so is plumb in unoccupied Britain).  As great as it is watching fighters do it, watching a C-130 do it is far better.  And louder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NEmy5CFpgA

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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2017, 04:59:39 AM »
^ Wow.

I still don't understand how the planes maintain altitude during a steep bank, since the vertical lift component must vary with the cosine of the bank angle.  Forty five degree bank angle, vertical lift component goes to only 71%.  At a 90° bank, vertical lift is zero, as in this well-known incident:

https://youtu.be/182AepOJjMs



Anyhow, apart from using aerodynamic surfaces to point the plane's yaw axis upward so that it's partially flying on the reduced vertical wing lift, and partially hanging on its engines, by giving it left rudder in a steep right bank, I don't see how they maintain altitude.

Either that, or it's just maintaining a ballistic trajectory, and the fall rate is not obvious to a casual observer such as myself.

Flying upside down I can understand, you're just changing the angle of attack so that the lift is still upward despite the wing being upside down.  But unless you're doing a half-loop, you've still got to go through a bank again to re-establish right-side-up flight.

Terry, landlubber, '97 Subaru Outback pilot.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 05:26:06 AM by 230RN »

Fly320s

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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2017, 07:41:26 AM »
You're right on all counts.

In those videos, the planes are not maintaining altitude in those over-banking maneuvers.  They are descending, but it is difficult to see on the video.

45 degree bank is no big deal.  At 60 degrees, level flight is easy enough, but the G-load is 2Gs.  Beyond that angle, the vertical lift component drops rapidly.  There may have been some ballistic arcing going on, but I think it was just the camera angles that make it hard to tell what is happening.
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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2017, 01:26:12 PM »
^Wow, again.  Thanks.  First time I've been right in a week.

Must take a lot of control-surface and throttle jockeying to do that, but I guess if you train for it, it's not that hard. 

Thanks.

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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2017, 02:39:55 PM »
Must take a lot of control-surface and throttle jockeying to do that, but I guess if you train for it, it's not that hard. 

Thanks.

No, not really.  It is a required maneuver for new pilot training.  A student with 5 to 10 hours of training can easily hold level flight in a 60 degree bank.  Beyond 60 degrees is considered aerobatic, so most civilians don't train for steeper banks.  Nor do we train for nap-of-the-earth flying, which is a bummer.  In the airline world, we don't exceed 30 degrees of bank.

Something else to consider in the video with the fighter in a steep bank coming over a hill: staying in the bank, or increasing the bank, will unload the Gs and reduce lift allowing the plane to descend quicker without putting any load on the a/c.  Rolling out of the bank will increase the lift which will require more nose down (negative G) force to net the same rate of descent, and it will be slower than staying in the bank.  So, he was already in the bank and also needed to descend, so rolling in more bank allows the nose to fall quicker which keeps the plane closer to the ground so the commies won't see him coming.
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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2017, 03:04:13 PM »
^ Wow.

I still don't understand how the planes maintain altitude during a steep bank, since the vertical lift component must vary with the cosine of the bank angle.  Forty five degree bank angle, vertical lift component goes to only 71%.  At a 90° bank, vertical lift is zero, as in this well-known incident:

https://youtu.be/182AepOJjMs



Anyhow, apart from using aerodynamic surfaces to point the plane's yaw axis upward so that it's partially flying on the reduced vertical wing lift, and partially hanging on its engines, by giving it left rudder in a steep right bank, I don't see how they maintain altitude.

Either that, or it's just maintaining a ballistic trajectory, and the fall rate is not obvious to a casual observer such as myself.

Flying upside down I can understand, you're just changing the angle of attack so that the lift is still upward despite the wing being upside down.  But unless you're doing a half-loop, you've still got to go through a bank again to re-establish right-side-up flight.

Terry, landlubber, '97 Subaru Outback pilot.


I always was of the impression that it was the McDonnell-Douglas principle that started with the F-4 Phantom and continued through the F-14 and F-15.  Strap a big enough engine on it (then make it 2!) and even a brick will fly.
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Re: Star Wars Canyon
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2017, 03:26:33 PM »
Fly320 pointed out:

Quote
Something else to consider in the video with the fighter in a steep bank coming over a hill: staying in the bank, or increasing the bank, will unload the Gs and reduce lift allowing the plane to descend quicker without putting any load on the a/c.

Yes, now I remember when I lived near Boulder Municipal (don't know what it might be called nowadays) watching the gliders release from the tow plane, and the tow plane would tip over 90° sideways and drop like a rock, with the towline trailing upwards behind it.  Takes a while for those memory engrams to percolate up to the surface.

AmbulanceDrive remarked,

Quote
I always was of the impression that it was the McDonnell-Douglas principle that started with the F-4 Phantom and continued through the F-14 and F-15.  Strap a big enough engine on it (then make it 2!) and even a brick will fly.

LOL!

Yeah, but that's not flying, as in aerodynamically.  That's just...

https://youtu.be/jmsTzevG7aQ

...mere rocketry.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 03:40:25 PM by 230RN »