Author Topic: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"  (Read 26603 times)

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,904
  • I'm an Extremist!
Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« on: May 26, 2017, 11:24:28 AM »
No link, just heard it on the news. Zuckerberg was pushing a universal basic income at a Harvard speech to allow people to follow their dreams and ideas (sounds kinda like Pelosi on free healthcare). The same guy who uses the H1B visa.

This stuff is easy to say if you're a gazillionaire. I have always found that some of the most worthless and rudderless individuals I have ever met are trust fund babies. I'm not sure that throwing $40K/yr or so at someone is going to get most people to do any more than innovate different ways to hang out at the beach.

I'd be all for the experiment. Zuckerberg should take about $10billion of his money, pick around 10,000 random people across the country, and pay them $50K/yr until the money runs out. See what they've done at the end of the experiment. If they've succeeded and innovated, great! If they spent all their time at the beach, that's great too, because they did so on his dime, not the taxpayer's dime.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,384
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2017, 12:07:34 PM »
Zuckerberg should take about $10billion of his money, pick around 10,000 random people across the country, and pay them $50K/yr until the money runs out. See what they've done at the end of the experiment. If they've succeeded and innovated, great! If they spent all their time at the beach, that's great too, because they did so on his dime, not the taxpayer's dime.


This times twelve-hundred and four.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2017, 02:03:18 PM »
This stuff is easy to say if you're a gazillionaire. I have always found that some of the most worthless and rudderless individuals I have ever met are trust fund babies. I'm not sure that throwing $40K/yr or so at someone is going to get most people to do any more than innovate different ways to hang out at the beach.

I'd be all for the experiment. Zuckerberg should take about $10billion of his money, pick around 10,000 random people across the country, and pay them $50K/yr until the money runs out. See what they've done at the end of the experiment. If they've succeeded and innovated, great! If they spent all their time at the beach, that's great too, because they did so on his dime, not the taxpayer's dime.

I'll volunteer. I'd spend a lot of time in my garden, hunting, reading, and teaching my children. I'd be a full-time tutor for 4 gifted children.

That's worth $40K or $50K a year. Add my wife's $40K and we'll also take vacations to Hawaii.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

DittoHead

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,574
  • Writing for the Bulwark since August 2019
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2017, 03:00:58 PM »
It simply isn't true that we want to create jobs, that's not the point of it all. Quite the opposite in fact, we want to destroy jobs, destroy as many as we can. Which is the value of automation to us of course, that we do destroy jobs.

UBR is interesting as a kind of though experiment I guess, I don't see it being relevant any time soon.
Even the people who support it usually do so in a a vague "eventually we'll need it sense" and not a specific proposal to make it happen now.
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,384
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2017, 04:48:41 PM »
I'll volunteer. I'd spend a lot of time in my garden, hunting, reading, and teaching my children. I'd be a full-time tutor for 4 gifted children.


So you'd teach them, read them, and then hunt them? That is disturbing.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2017, 05:32:00 PM »

So you'd teach them, read them, and then hunt them? That is disturbing.

Not at all. Good E&E skills are a rare thing today. Start 'em young.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,995
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2017, 05:43:53 PM »

So you'd teach them, read them, and then hunt them? That is disturbing.

No, I saw it as first comes the hunt, and then the survivors reap the benefits of reading and teaching.  I must suggest this technique to my wife the elementary school teacher.  I know she has several kids that she would make certain do not survive the hunt.  And it would certainly motivate the rest.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,904
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2017, 05:49:49 PM »
No, I saw it as first comes the hunt, and then the survivors reap the benefits of reading and teaching.  I must suggest this technique to my wife the elementary school teacher.  I know she has several kids that she would make certain do not survive the hunt.  And it would certainly motivate the rest.

Quote
If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

AJ Dual

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,162
  • Shoe Ballistics Inc.
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2017, 05:56:58 PM »
I'm not even going to argue the merits or demerits of having a UBI system. The mere fact that certain people are confidently predicting the need for it is de-facto assurance that they will be wrong.

The basic premise is that automation is going to put tons of people out of work, burger flippers, taxi drivers, truck drivers, the UPS/FedEx/USPS-man, pizza drivers, you name it.

What's funny is that these guys, bleeding edge capitalists, the robber-barons of this era more or less can't themselves see that the economy is not a zero-sum game.

What happened every time some other kind of machinery or automation created a systemic disruption? The automobile largely killed the careers of stable-boys, feed-farmers, tack and saddle makers, but it created oil drillers, refinery workers, automobile plant workers, gas station attendants, road builders, mechanics, tire makers... and the list goes on and on, and got even bigger as cars and trucks improved. The automobile industry wound up employing orders of magnitude more people than the "horse industry" ever did.

For the sake of argument, say that automation eliminates 90% of retail, low-skill factory work, and transportation/driver jobs. And those making the warnings will naturally argue "this time it's different" (something someone always argues...) because ostensibly all the capital freed up by automation, and no more paying of wages will indeed go into new industries but those too will be automated. Fine. However, nothing is 100%, so even assuming that will be true... and ignoring that we're not even considering jobs/industries, or meaningful work someone is willing to pay someone else for that we haven't even dreamed up yet...  All we need is a 1:1 replacement of all these lost jobs. Very minor, considering every other disruption in the world, factories, steam, the automobile, air travel, electricity, the Internet to date has always created an exponential growth in the number of workers needed.

That said... I don't think we're even looking at the right problem. The coming explosion in productivity and new capital from automation may create a labor shortage the likes of which we've never seen. The competition to get a warm body... anybody to accept a job might be so great that it'll make the "fight for $15" people look like pikers. Furthermore, there's few if any countries in the First World that has it's "native" population reproducing at even 1:1 replacement rate. They're only buoyed up by the fact that the Second and Third World wants to live here. What happens when automation sweeps their countries way faster (think cell phone penetration) than the rest of the "industrial revolution" did or even has to do so yet than it did in the First World and they stop coming?

Even that might not be the "right problem". What we're ultimately talking about is post-scarcity. We've never ever had that in human history. We don't really know what it will be like. We could even see ourselves in such bizarre circumstances as an economy that runs in reverse. Where the consumers/users are paid to do so.
I promise not to duck.

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2017, 06:04:03 PM »
But think of the buggy whip makers!!!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2017, 08:18:53 PM »
For the sake of argument, say that automation eliminates 90% of retail, low-skill factory work, and transportation/driver jobs. And those making the warnings will naturally argue "this time it's different" (something someone always argues...) because ostensibly all the capital freed up by automation, and no more paying of wages will indeed go into new industries but those too will be automated. Fine. However, nothing is 100%, so even assuming that will be true... and ignoring that we're not even considering jobs/industries, or meaningful work someone is willing to pay someone else for that we haven't even dreamed up yet...  All we need is a 1:1 replacement of all these lost jobs. Very minor, considering every other disruption in the world, factories, steam, the automobile, air travel, electricity, the Internet to date has always created an exponential growth in the number of workers needed.

There is no economic law that displaced workers will find other employment. It HAS historically happened, but as every prospective says "past performance is no guarantee of future returns". In the past two decades, dead rust belt areas were assumed that labor would move elsewhere with low friction. This hasn't happened. Interesting stuff, actually. If a company cut 10,000 jobs across 50 states, those 200 per state could easily move elsewhere. But cut 10,000 jobs in a specific area? You create a blight area with positive feedback loops that encourage economic issues, very very resistant to regrowth. Makes sense. A mill or plant supports dozens to hundreds of small businesses. Doesn't even have to be a plant closing. Labor friction was much much higher than any economist thought.

Doesn't even have to be a plant closing. Ferguson had the same phenomena. Businesses close. Housing market crumbles. Selling your house would mean huge losses. Economic hardship causes more marginal businesses to close.


I'm not dismissive of historic trends. I just don't have enough blind faith to believe that historic trends never change. Akin to "housing pricing always goes up".

Good video that covers the subject well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU


But think of the buggy whip makers!!!

Good example. Horses. Historically, constant technology improvements made their lives better.

Saddles. Stirrups. Bridles. Stage coaches. Medicine. Automation kicked in and then horses didn't need to die in terrible wars or serve as draft animals. For a long time, better technology meant more better jobs for horses. However, it didn't last forever. Eventually... it didn't. Now we only need a tiny fraction of horses as previously. While the few remaining horses are living comfortably, the unneeded horses only became not a burden because they were shot or turned into glue. Unless we plan on doing the same to people as we did horses, I'm not at all convinced things will go smoothly.

Technology has sharply reduced the number of lawyers, manufacturing, etc. So far, economics show that it has not led to an increase new better jobs for people. The economists were absolutely shocked at this. They counted on conventional optimism as well, and the numbers haven't backed it up.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

DittoHead

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,574
  • Writing for the Bulwark since August 2019
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2017, 08:38:08 PM »
There is no economic law that displaced workers will find other employment. It HAS historically happened, but as every prospective says "past performance is no guarantee of future returns".

And I think it's important to consider how little "data" we have to work with. Looking at job displacement/replacement shifts that have occurred since the industrial revolution gives something to make educated guesses from, but it's still foolish to assume that those trends will continue if something like artificial intelligence coming into play.
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2017, 08:53:09 PM »


Oh, as for UBI. It won't work if one does simple math.

US government revenue is $3.18 trillion.

$3,180,000,000,000   360,000,000 = $8,833.33 check for every person. If you eliminated every single other cent being spent by the US government.

Good luck living on that. US poverty line is $12,060. In my area, minimum living wage is allegedly $21,165.

For poverty 'basic income' you would need 4,341,600,000,000, a measly 1.4x increase in taxes.
For minimum 'basic income' you would need 7,619,400,000,000, or tax revenue would have to be increased by 2.4x.

If you want to continue normal government stuff, you're looking at 2.4x increase for poverty basic income. 3.4x increase for minimum basic income.

I tend to pay 30% in taxes. I'd personally face a 72% tax rate. Or 102% tax rate. In return for minimum living standards.

The notion is that you'd be able to discontinue paying for social services. By just handing out money. Which assumes people not capable of financially, mentally or physically supporting themselves would instantly BE able to financially, mentally or physically support themselves. Which is obviously not statistically possible.

 
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

DustinD

  • I have a title
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 919
  • I have a personal text message
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2017, 09:01:20 PM »
Detroit killed and the unions killed the manufacturing, not the other way around. That is why the area has not recovered, it still has the same disease holding it back.
"I don't always shoot defenceless women in the face, but when I do, I prefer H-S Precision.

Stay bloodthirsty, my friends."

                       - Lon Horiuchi

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2017, 09:29:15 PM »
Detroit killed and the unions killed the manufacturing, not the other way around. That is why the area has not recovered, it still has the same disease holding it back.

I wasn't touching so much on the who or what did the killing, just the after effects. Thing is, manufacturing isn't dying in the US. It's not growing as fast as China but they only recently surpassed us.

We're still the second largest manufacturing country. Just not manufacturing jobs. Off shoring, politics, and most importantly, higher and higher efficiency/productivity mean you need less people to do the same amount of work.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,904
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2017, 09:36:20 PM »

Oh, as for UBI. It won't work if one does simple math.

This is also similar to CA currently pushing to be the first single payer state for health insurance. The projected budget for that recently came back and was apparently double the current overall state budget (and people with math skills said the projected budget was way under-reported). The math doesn't seem to have deterred the state's dem supermajority though. They seem to think a tax increase will take care of it. Nevermind that we already pay one of the highest state rates in the country and don't come near to covering the current overspending.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

dm1333

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,875
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2017, 09:36:28 PM »
All of the guaranteed income people are Democrats. (please correct me if I am wrong)  The DNC can't even pay minimum wage to some of its employees.
Why should I believe they can provide a universal basic income to our citizens?  Am I missing something?   :laugh:

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2017, 09:54:14 PM »
This is also similar to CA currently pushing to be the first single payer state for health insurance. The projected budget for that recently came back and was apparently double the current overall state budget (and people with math skills said the projected budget was way under-reported). The math doesn't seem to have deterred the state's dem supermajority though. They seem to think a tax increase will take care of it. Nevermind that we already pay one of the highest state rates in the country and don't come near to covering the current overspending.

I can certainly understand supporting UBI if you know it has zero chance of passing. You always sound great if you can promise free stuff and someone else stops you from giving out free stuff. Fiscal responsibility people are just plain meanies who hate puppies, obviously.

That's a very different story from actually pulling the trigger.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2017, 10:55:48 PM »
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

So "they" decide the minimum UBI is $35K a year, but you only qualify if you make less than that. Joe Bluecollar has worked his ass off making his way up to $40K a year so doesn't qualify for UBI payment. His neighbor, Freddy Freeloader sets on his ass all day and .gov sends him $35K a year.
Somebody tell me why Joe Bluecollar, or anyone else would accept that?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,904
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2017, 11:24:30 PM »
Freddy Freeloader sets on his ass all day and .gov sends him $35K a year.

Also likely tax free, so he ends up with more dough than the $40K/yr stiff.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

DittoHead

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,574
  • Writing for the Bulwark since August 2019
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2017, 07:58:54 AM »
So "they" decide the minimum UBI is $35K a year, but you only qualify if you make less than that. Joe Bluecollar has worked his ass off making his way up to $40K a year so doesn't qualify for UBI payment. His neighbor, Freddy Freeloader sets on his ass all day and .gov sends him $35K a year. Somebody tell me why Joe Bluecollar, or anyone else would accept that?
Um, I don't think that's how it works...
Quote
all citizens or residents of a country regularly receive an unconditional sum of money, either from a government or some other public institution, in addition to any income received from elsewhere.
They both get the same free government money regardless of what else they do. That's the universal part.
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,600
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2017, 08:26:46 AM »
For poverty 'basic income' you would need 4,341,600,000,000, a measly 1.4x increase in taxes.
Hogwash. Government can simply print up more money.*








* This message brought to you by the economic whiz-kids of the DNC.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,904
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2017, 10:16:42 AM »
Um, I don't think that's how it works...They both get the same free government money regardless of what else they do. That's the universal part.

That may be the definition, but in the current US political climate, and that for the foreseeable future, no dem or RINO would ever, ever, ever, ever allow any bill to pass that gives $35K/yr (or whatever amount) to anyone who is making say, $100K or more.

They won't even cut their taxes, so there's no way they'll "give" them anything. Which would make UBI in the US nothing more than expanded welfare for specific groups. We've already seen the similar example with the ACA screwing people who are individually insured and make more than ~$45K.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,606
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2017, 11:17:44 AM »
Um, I don't think that's how it works...They both get the same free government money regardless of what else they do. That's the universal part.
Of course that is not how it works - it doesn't work at all.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,243
Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2017, 11:34:04 AM »
No, I saw it as first comes the hunt, and then the survivors reap the benefits of reading and teaching.  I must suggest this technique to my wife the elementary school teacher.  I know she has several kids that she would make certain do not survive the hunt.  And it would certainly motivate the rest.

Pour encourager les autres.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design