Author Topic: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"  (Read 26630 times)

Hawkmoon

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2017, 11:44:42 AM »
All of the guaranteed income people are Democrats. (please correct me if I am wrong)  The DNC can't even pay minimum wage to some of its employees.
Why should I believe they can provide a universal basic income to our citizens?  Am I missing something?   :laugh:

What you are missing is what you pointed out -- they are Democrats. Democrats are always good at spending other people's money.

You didn't think Zuckerberg was volunteering any of his 72 billion dollars to support other people, did you?
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MechAg94

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2017, 12:26:35 PM »
What you are missing is what you pointed out -- they are Democrats. Democrats are always good at spending other people's money.

You didn't think Zuckerberg was volunteering any of his 72 billion dollars to support other people, did you?
Of course not.  He was complaining about new graduates having to pay back student loans.  He could have stepped up and paid money to every one of those graduates and put his money where it mouth is.  He has his money.  He wants to be generous with someone else's money. 
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MechAg94

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2017, 12:31:44 PM »
There is no economic law that displaced workers will find other employment. It HAS historically happened, but as every prospective says "past performance is no guarantee of future returns". In the past two decades, dead rust belt areas were assumed that labor would move elsewhere with low friction. This hasn't happened. Interesting stuff, actually. If a company cut 10,000 jobs across 50 states, those 200 per state could easily move elsewhere. But cut 10,000 jobs in a specific area? You create a blight area with positive feedback loops that encourage economic issues, very very resistant to regrowth. Makes sense. A mill or plant supports dozens to hundreds of small businesses. Doesn't even have to be a plant closing. Labor friction was much much higher than any economist thought.

Doesn't even have to be a plant closing. Ferguson had the same phenomena. Businesses close. Housing market crumbles. Selling your house would mean huge losses. Economic hardship causes more marginal businesses to close.


I'm not dismissive of historic trends. I just don't have enough blind faith to believe that historic trends never change. Akin to "housing pricing always goes up".

Good video that covers the subject well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU


Good example. Horses. Historically, constant technology improvements made their lives better.

Saddles. Stirrups. Bridles. Stage coaches. Medicine. Automation kicked in and then horses didn't need to die in terrible wars or serve as draft animals. For a long time, better technology meant more better jobs for horses. However, it didn't last forever. Eventually... it didn't. Now we only need a tiny fraction of horses as previously. While the few remaining horses are living comfortably, the unneeded horses only became not a burden because they were shot or turned into glue. Unless we plan on doing the same to people as we did horses, I'm not at all convinced things will go smoothly.

Technology has sharply reduced the number of lawyers, manufacturing, etc. So far, economics show that it has not led to an increase new better jobs for people. The economists were absolutely shocked at this. They counted on conventional optimism as well, and the numbers haven't backed it up.
First, many people already get welfare, social security, and unemployment which tends to subsidize people NOT to going where the jobs are and NOT being productive.  IMO, it also encourages irresponsible govt.  

Second, your example of "housing prices always go up" is a good example.  It was a trend caused in large part by government subsidies of home loans and lots and lots of regulations.  The government subsidizing wages won't work any better and will likely be much much worse.  
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2017, 12:35:16 PM »
My other concern with something like this:  If the government can decide the minimum pay everyone should have, would they also decide what the maximum would be?  Wealthy people often like to do things that keep others from becoming wealthy. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Firethorn

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2017, 12:41:40 AM »
UBR is interesting as a kind of though experiment I guess, I don't see it being relevant any time soon.
Even the people who support it usually do so in a a vague "eventually we'll need it sense" and not a specific proposal to make it happen now.

Step 1:  Start at $100/month.  $1200/year.  Drop some cash welfare benefit by $1200/year.  Lower the amount for the 25% tax rate, digging into the 15% rate, by $12k. 

Result:  You make more than $37,951 you're exactly equally off.  If you're receiving some cash welfare benefit in excess of $1200, you're equally well off.  If you were making below $38k but NOT getting the cash benefit, you're slightly better off.

Continuing:  Increase by $100/month for ~5 years, ending at a payment of $500/month, though I wouldn't cry at $600.  Eventually you get rid of non-healthcare related welfare payments, including non-cash versions.  If you expect for people to pay for their own healthcare, payments would have to be higher, and probably sequestrated into some sort of 'healthcare only' account to make sure it isn't diverted.  Continue dropping the lower 'introduction' tax rates, eliminate the personal exemption, and welfare programs, starting with the most 'cash-like'.

End result:  The lowest tax rate is 25% and the personal exemptions are gone, but that's okay because you get the equivalent of a $6k refundable credit.  If you earn somewhere in the $100k range your finances are within a couple bucks of what they were before.  If you were on welfare you aren't anymore, though you get $500-600/month to do with as you please.  More importantly, you're not going to lose that money if you get a job, so there's less incentive to sit on your butt.  We also need to hire a lot fewer welfare agents to watch you sit on your butt to make sure you don't make something of yourself while still receiving the benefit.  Bonuses all around.

Less government, cheaper, check.
Less control over people's lives, check.
Government getting stuff done at minimal intervention, check.
Drastically less bureaucracy needed, check.
Flat(ter) tax rates! check.

That's how a libertarian does a BIG.

Now, to go look at the rest of the comments...

I'm not dismissive of historic trends. I just don't have enough blind faith to believe that historic trends never change. Akin to "housing pricing always goes up".

Good example. Horses. Historically, constant technology improvements made their lives better.

Actually, not all live in comfort now, with the closing of horse slaughterhouses, it was discovered that the slaughterhouses put a minimum value on horses - so the ones that didn't go to the glue factory were well taken care of because they were above that base value.  With that option gone, the value of a horse can easily go negative - it's an expense to get rid of a horse anymore, and thus you see far more neglect.  In some cases you can't give them away, and they're still big animals that need to eat.

Ironically, closing the slaughterhouses to be 'more humane' led to far more cruelty against horses.

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Technology has sharply reduced the number of lawyers, manufacturing, etc. So far, economics show that it has not led to an increase new better jobs for people. The economists were absolutely shocked at this. They counted on conventional optimism as well, and the numbers haven't backed it up.

Better production per individual can lead to better pay for all, but in the latest boom it's been the owners who have gotten the vast majority of the gains, thus why the incomes of the rich have been going up while the labor of the poor has declined in value.

I'm not even going to argue the merits or demerits of having a UBI system. The mere fact that certain people are confidently predicting the need for it is de-facto assurance that they will be wrong.

I'd like to see it, done properly, as I think it'd be drastically cheaper and more effective.  By eliminating welfare cliffs, we can shove these types back into the labor system far more easily.
Oh, as for UBI. It won't work if one does simple math.

So you mean I need to break out the calculus?

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$3,180,000,000,000   360,000,000 = $8,833.33 check for every person. If you eliminated every single other cent being spent by the US government.

I posit about $6k/year, which if you get 4 adults to team up is $24k, or the poverty line for the US.

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Good luck living on that. US poverty line is $12,060. In my area, minimum living wage is allegedly $21,165.

Then they need to move out and make room for those that can earn the $21k needed.  Or your area can pay a differential if they want the poor people still around to exploit with low wages.

$21k, as is, is way too close to the national median income.

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For poverty 'basic income' you would need 4,341,600,000,000, a measly 1.4x increase in taxes.
For minimum 'basic income' you would need 7,619,400,000,000, or tax revenue would have to be increased by 2.4x.

Here's the thing:  Electronic money transfers are incredibly cheap.  As I mentioned in the plan above, what you do is get rid of the lower tax brackets, such that for the vast majority of people, the amount they pay in extra taxes under the system is negated by the BIG they receive.

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If you want to continue normal government stuff, you're looking at 2.4x increase for poverty basic income. 3.4x increase for minimum basic income.

Why?  For one, $12k-$20k/year is ridiculously generous.  Two, you're ignoring all the federal welfare programs that could be eliminated.  Three, you're not figuring on increasing taxes on the lower end, to tax back the BIG amounts gradually, resulting in no welfare cliffs.

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I tend to pay 30% in taxes. I'd personally face a 72% tax rate. Or 102% tax rate. In return for minimum living standards.

What makes you assume this?  How do you figure this?  Is the 30% your marginal tax rate, or overall?  You're not including adding the BIG amount back into your income?

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The notion is that you'd be able to discontinue paying for social services. By just handing out money. Which assumes people not capable of financially, mentally or physically supporting themselves would instantly BE able to financially, mentally or physically support themselves. Which is obviously not statistically possible.

Because it's a monthly amount, the odds are that they'll figure it out sooner or later, usually sooner.  Because it's monthly, unlike lottery winners, they can't spend all of it immediately.  Generally, they'll figure out ways to optimize their income, just like they figure out ways to take encumbered money like food stamps and turn it into unencumbered money they can use to spend on anything.


All of the guaranteed income people are Democrats. (please correct me if I am wrong)  The DNC can't even pay minimum wage to some of its employees.
Why should I believe they can provide a universal basic income to our citizens?  Am I missing something?   :laugh:

There are actually libertarian guaranteed income people, though we approach it differently than the democrats do.  They approach it as a human rights thing.  I approach it as being ultimately a money saver as well as personal freedom increaser.



Scout26

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2017, 03:59:13 AM »
Money is nothing but a store of wealth.


Where does this wealth come from ??
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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Firethorn

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2017, 05:42:16 AM »
Money is nothing but a store of wealth.

Actually, I disagree with this.  Money isn't a "store" of anything, not fiat currency at least.  It's a marker of some value.  As proof, look at wealthy people - they'll keep as little in 'cash' as practical. 

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Where does this wealth come from ??

Various places.  Natural resources, people working, etc...

As for paying for a BIG, generally taxes, though if given a long enough term, I'd go for an Alaska style permanent fund.

Keep in mind that we're already paying out ridiculous amounts in welfare payments, so it's actually pretty easy to come out more or less neutral on the payments - and we don't want the payments to stay exactly the same, because part of the goal is eliminating the "welfare cliffs" that discourage people from progressing.

I was swearing more or less constantly when they did a local piece and mentioned how many workers, inside alaska, would decline raises and full time hours because of the threat it placed on their benefits.  Earning $1/hour more could literally cost them thousands.

MechAg94

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2017, 11:08:54 AM »
So your solution to people making bad decisions because it threatens a source of free money is to come up with another system to give them free money.

Money can be store of wealth, it just has flaws and disadvantages just like every other store of wealth. 
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Ben

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2017, 11:54:23 AM »
Firethorn, I look at what you outlined the same as communism. Note: this is not a dig at you nor am I being dismissive.

What I mean is (and I'm likely to get flamed myself here), in theory in a theoretically tabula rasa world, where you take humans, human history, and human nature out of the equation and run a computer simulation of communism, it's a workable system. Just like your explanation of UBI. Once you inject humans into the equation though, both systems become practically unworkable.

Why will people work under UBI? I don't mean people that will decide, "Hey, I've got UBI to support myself now.  I can live my dream and study Herodotus." or "I can travel the country and be the wildlife photographer I've always wanted to be instead of working at the Lowes." I mean the people that dig ditches, fix the electrical in your house, unclog your toilets, replace your roof, etc. Who is going to do physically difficult, but necessary jobs if they don't need the money? Maybe the roofing contractor will (try to) stay in business, but where is he going to find laborers to work on a roof in 100 degree weather when they can make a little less doing nothing?

Not to mention on the other end, I still argue that no politicians in this country will ever attempt to promote a system that gives "X" dollars to everyone, whether they are jobless or multi-millionaires. We can't even get any traction on a flat tax because "it favors the rich". Giving a millionaire an annual stipend will go exactly nowhere. If there is any democrat that has promoted UBI applied equally, I'd love to see the info (and if they got reelected). I'm pretty sure though, all the dems that promote it do so for "those making under "X" dollars). Which again sticks it to the middle and lower middle class the most, because the very wealthy have the assets to shrug it off.
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Scout26

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2017, 07:39:19 PM »
Actually, I disagree with this.  Money isn't a "store" of anything, not fiat currency at least.  It's a marker of some value.  As proof, look at wealthy people - they'll keep as little in 'cash' as practical. 


Perhaps you can explain to me the difference between "store of wealth" and "marker of some value". 

Yes, the rich keep very little in "cash", but last I checked their banks and brokerages keep tally in some denomination of currency(ies).  Which is money in non-cash form.

And just to clarify.  You made the jump from "money" to "cash".   Cash is a form of money, they are not interchangeable terms.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2017, 11:41:55 PM »
Firethorn, I look at what you outlined the same as communism. Note: this is not a dig at you nor am I being dismissive.

What I mean is (and I'm likely to get flamed myself here), in theory in a theoretically tabula rasa world, where you take humans, human history, and human nature out of the equation and run a computer simulation of communism, it's a workable system. Just like your explanation of UBI. Once you inject humans into the equation though, both systems become practically unworkable.

Why will people work under UBI? I don't mean people that will decide, "Hey, I've got UBI to support myself now.  I can live my dream and study Herodotus." or "I can travel the country and be the wildlife photographer I've always wanted to be instead of working at the Lowes." I mean the people that dig ditches, fix the electrical in your house, unclog your toilets, replace your roof, etc. Who is going to do physically difficult, but necessary jobs if they don't need the money? Maybe the roofing contractor will (try to) stay in business, but where is he going to find laborers to work on a roof in 100 degree weather when they can make a little less doing nothing?

Not to mention on the other end, I still argue that no politicians in this country will ever attempt to promote a system that gives "X" dollars to everyone, whether they are jobless or multi-millionaires. We can't even get any traction on a flat tax because "it favors the rich". Giving a millionaire an annual stipend will go exactly nowhere. If there is any democrat that has promoted UBI applied equally, I'd love to see the info (and if they got reelected). I'm pretty sure though, all the dems that promote it do so for "those making under "X" dollars). Which again sticks it to the middle and lower middle class the most, because the very wealthy have the assets to shrug it off.

That was my point. Even if ($deity forbid) "they" ever manage to pass some kind of UBI you can bet your sweet ass it will be income based/limited.
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Firethorn

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2017, 07:52:39 AM »
Firethorn, I look at what you outlined the same as communism. Note: this is not a dig at you nor am I being dismissive.

Well, either you have a rather non-standard view of communism or you didn't understand the proposal.

Because our current system is closer to communism.  You know, the whole 'to each according to their needs' thing?  A UBI/BIG is getting as far away from 'according to their needs' as we can while still providing assistance, because we're not individually making sure somebody receiving it has 'suitable' housing, 'suitable' food, and so forth by giving housing assistance that pays the rent for a place directly, providing 'food stamps' that is today money loaded onto a card that can only be used at qualified businesses for qualified products, etc...

I propose this because the current decision of the government is that it's going to provide all sorts of assistance to prevent people from, well, starving in the street.  I also dislike the idea of people having it better in prison than outside.  Prison's expensive, remember?  (Just looked up California's figure for something else.  $75k/year on average)

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What I mean is (and I'm likely to get flamed myself here), in theory in a theoretically tabula rasa world, where you take humans, human history, and human nature out of the equation and run a computer simulation of communism, it's a workable system. Just like your explanation of UBI. Once you inject humans into the equation though, both systems become practically unworkable.

Well, if you have 'perfect' humans, pretty much any system works.  This idea tries to take advantage of human nature.
1.  The individual generally knows their own needs best.  Yes, even dirt poor unemployed people.  As such, by avoiding inefficiencies of arbitrage and inefficiently fulfilled needs, the poor can actually, on average, have a better quality of life(as far as they're concerned, which is who matters) with less money.
2.  The current system is littered with welfare "cliffs" - where people will turn down raises, full time work, and such because there are cases where $1 more in income will literally cost them $1k or more.  This discourages people getting off of assistance.  By combining them all and introducing a gradual reduction, you can make it so they always benefit by earning more.

As one disabled guy in another forum put it, his healthcare costs like $50k/year.  If he busts an income level, he loses his healthcare.  He's disabled, there's so many exemptions out there that his only option would be being hired by a major company with a good enough health care system that he'd be immediately covered.  Only a select number of government jobs would give him coverage that's complete enough quickly enough to not bankrupt him.  As he's disabled, his work options are limited anyways.  In his case, what I'd do is provide a disability payment.  Regular old non-disabled people get the base payment.

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Why will people work under UBI? I don't mean people that will decide, "Hey, I've got UBI to support myself now.  I can live my dream and study Herodotus." or "I can travel the country and be the wildlife photographer I've always wanted to be instead of working at the Lowes." I mean the people that dig ditches, fix the electrical in your house, unclog your toilets, replace your roof, etc. Who is going to do physically difficult, but necessary jobs if they don't need the money? Maybe the roofing contractor will (try to) stay in business, but where is he going to find laborers to work on a roof in 100 degree weather when they can make a little less doing nothing?

Why do you work?  Why do I work?  Because I want more.  Keep in mind the amount I proposed - $6k per person.  Then a marginal tax rate of 25% until you get to somewhere around $100k*.

So it's not that they'd make "a little less" doing nothing.  Let's say your roofing contractor makes $10/hour, and works 50 weeks/year(so math is easy).

UBI: $6k.
Work: $10*40*50 = $20k
Taxes: $5k
Net income: $21k
Benefit from working:  $16k
So do you think that the roofing guy won't work for said $16k?  For a lifestyle that's over 3 times the cost as base?

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Not to mention on the other end, I still argue that no politicians in this country will ever attempt to promote a system that gives "X" dollars to everyone, whether they are jobless or multi-millionaires.

You do have a point that the political feasibility of this is indeed rather unlikely.  Still, there's a system that "fixes" this problem, in that you can implement it as a "Negative Income Tax", much like today with the "Earned Income Tax Credit". 

*I figured out a few different options to try to keep it as revenue neutral a proposal as possible.

Ben

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2017, 08:39:41 AM »
Why do you work?  Why do I work?  Because I want more.  Keep in mind the amount I proposed - $6k per person.  Then a marginal tax rate of 25% until you get to somewhere around $100k*.

So it's not that they'd make "a little less" doing nothing.  Let's say your roofing contractor makes $10/hour, and works 50 weeks/year(so math is easy).

UBI: $6k.
Work: $10*40*50 = $20k
Taxes: $5k
Net income: $21k
Benefit from working:  $16k
So do you think that the roofing guy won't work for said $16k?  For a lifestyle that's over 3 times the cost as base?

Here's our sticking point. Perhaps I don't understand UBI, but everything I've seen or read on it defines it as an income that covers all basic living expenses at or above the poverty level. $6K isn't enough to support anyone who wants to go back to school, start their own business, or "take a chance on being an innovator", which I believe is what Zuckerberg was talking about.

Your suggestions seem to be looking at alternatives to welfare (which is a noble goal), but that's not really "universal" - it's aimed at the lowest income classes.
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DittoHead

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2017, 09:19:50 AM »
Here's our sticking point. Perhaps I don't understand UBI, but everything I've seen or read on it defines it as an income that covers all basic living expenses at or above the poverty level. $6K isn't enough to support anyone who wants to go back to school, start their own business, or "take a chance on being an innovator", which I believe is what Zuckerberg was talking about.

But going to college or starting a business aren't basic living expenses?
UBI would be enough to keep you fed, healthy (to a limited extent I assume), and in a stable living situation. Stuff everyone needs. College funding or seed money for a business would require extra work to make extra money, just like now.
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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2017, 09:43:23 AM »
But going to college or starting a business aren't basic living expenses?

Dude, really? Absolutely not. Neither is a right of any kind, nor are they even anything that should be expected. 50% of the people that are in college collecting debt now would be better off taking some welding classes, going to culinary school, or any number of better options for them vs useless degrees that get them a Starbucks job where they spend their time complaining that they need UBI. Nor should my tax dollars go to someone taking a chance on starting a business (look up how many businesses fail every year). The guy who came up with fidget spinners is making a killing. Good for him. If he failed however, that would be the breaks and all on him, not you or me supporting anyone's wild ideas with our tax dollars. That's almost anti-capitalism.

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UBI would be enough to keep you fed, healthy (to a limited extent I assume), and in a stable living situation. Stuff everyone needs. College funding or seed money for a business would require extra work to make extra money, just like now.

Again, and if someone wants to steer me to reading material, I'm happy to read up and maybe change my mind, but everything I've seen on UBI is not the above. All that I've seen, and what Zuckerberg was talking about, is that it's not a partial stipend. $5K or $10K doesn't cover UBI as I understand it. UBI covers the roof over your head and basic utilities, food, and health. Basically everything you need without having to go out and earn so that if your dream fails, you don't end up under a bridge. There's nothing in it about four people getting $5K/yr bunking up as roommates in a 1 bedroom apartment, or eating government cheese as your basic food source.

 

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DittoHead

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2017, 09:57:45 AM »
Neither is a right of any kind, nor are they even anything that should be expected
Right, that's what I'm saying, that's why it's not covered in UBI. Not everyone needs it. I don't think Zuckerberg is saying it's included either but that if people don't have to worry about the stuff that UBI covers, it frees up their time & resources to pursue if they do want it. If you have a whole bunch of people who have big dreams but their paycheck only gets them enough to survive they aren't going to take that chance on making it big. The theory behind UBI is that it will allow them to take those chances and innovate because the risks involved in failure are minimal.

UBI covers the roof over your head and basic utilities, food, and health.
Yes, isn't that basically what I said? Fed, healthy and in a stable living situation? I don't understand where you think we have a difference of understanding or what Zuckerberg is proposing differently.
 

In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

Ben

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2017, 10:02:00 AM »
Right, that's what I'm saying, that's why it's not covered in UBI. Not everyone needs it. I don't think Zuckerberg is saying it's included either but that if people don't have to worry about the stuff that UBI covers, it frees up their time & resources to pursue if they do want it. If you have a whole bunch of people who have big dreams but their paycheck only gets them enough to survive they aren't going to take that chance on making it big. The theory behind UBI is that it will allow them to take those chances and innovate because the risks involved in failure are minimal.
Yes, isn't that basically what I said? Fed, healthy and in a stable living situation? I don't understand where you think we have a difference of understanding or what Zuckerberg is proposing differently.


Okay, sorry - I misunderstood where you were coming from. On the one, I read it as if you were supporting college as a UBI expense, and on the other, I think I was mixing you up with Firethorn's $6K example.
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Pb

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2017, 10:31:21 AM »
Here are some basic income experiments:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_pilots

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2017, 10:38:39 AM »
UBI covers the roof over your head and basic utilities, food, and health. Basically everything you need without having to go out and earn so that if your dream fails, you don't end up under a bridge. There's nothing in it about four people getting $5K/yr bunking up as roommates in a 1 bedroom apartment, or eating government cheese as your basic food source.

That's basic living expenses.  Show me privacy on Maslow's hierarchy.  Plenty of places in the world, 4+ adults in what typically passes for a 1 bedroom place here is pretty common, and they're healthy.  Americans aren't a special species with different basic needs.  Heck, military barracks and the service members who have lived in them for extended periods are proof of that.

Could I live like that indefinitely?  Sure.  Would I want to?  Not on a bet.  I might do it for a time to save up some money, but I'd always be strongly inclined to go find whatever work I could do to get enough extra cash to get myself to the point of not having to share sleeping space with anyone I'm not in an actual relationship with.  That should be the goal of any welfare-type program; to keep the person healthy while still encouraging them to become self-supporting.

As for government cheese, I've said before that I'd favor ditching virtually all food stamp programs in favor of a simple system granting 8 Humanitarian Daily Rations per week to every citizen who cares to collect them.  Then, not only do you have 2200+ calories every day but you can even save up your spares and have a month's supply stashed away in just over half a year.  According to the pricing I've seen, at that level of bulk purchase, they'd be well under $1 each, vegetarian, halal, etc. and with no qualifications, the workload to determine who gets them is completely eliminated.  Sell extras for $1.50 each to help fund the program and give people who need or just want the extra calories a cheaper option than McDonalds.  If Bill Gates wants to supplement his income to the tune of maybe $8 per week by picking his rations up and selling them to fat people cheaper than the government price for extras, fine, but I'm betting that system would self-regulate so that only people for whom food is a significant part of the budget actually go get them.

For education, as has been said elsewhere, let's divert some/most of the college assistance toward trade schools and certification programs, with a preference based on market demand and demonstrated aptitude.  Student loans and grants would often be better used teaching mechanically inclined little Johnny how to fix HVAC systems or diesel engines than getting him a sociology degree, or Suzy who's been assistant manager at the diner could get 2 years of specific training in restaurant management and a recognized certification instead of spending four years on a business degree.  Even better, it would happen a lot faster, with a virtual certainty that they would be able to earn enough to repay the loans.

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2017, 10:54:52 AM »
Right, that's what I'm saying, that's why it's not covered in UBI. Not everyone needs it. I don't think Zuckerberg is saying it's included either but that if people don't have to worry about the stuff that UBI covers, it frees up their time & resources to pursue if they do want it. If you have a whole bunch of people who have big dreams but their paycheck only gets them enough to survive they aren't going to take that chance on making it big. The theory behind UBI is that it will allow them to take those chances and innovate because the risks involved in failure are minimal.

My theory is that most people are generally lazy if allowed to be.  The people who would innovate or work hard to go for the big risk are probably going to do it anyway without UBI.  I don't think UBI would encourage enough additional people to do those things to make it worth setting all that up.  It would just end up being a big money giveaway that politicians can use to buy votes.  I think going a pure free market approach and working on removing the barriers and costs that discourage people from starting a new business would be much more worthwhile.
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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2017, 11:00:18 AM »
Second, your example of "housing prices always go up" is a good example.  It was a trend caused in large part by government subsidies of home loans and lots and lots of regulations.  The government subsidizing wages won't work any better and will likely be much much worse.  

Ask people in Detroit if housing prices always go up.

In fact, ask anyone who bought a house right at the peak of the bubble, before it burst. There are a LOT of homeowners in this country right now who are "under water" on home ownership -- they owe more than the house can sell for in today's market.
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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2017, 01:22:56 PM »
The problem with things like UBI and the Earned Income Credit is that they are DIS-incentives for people to work.   Yeah, I've got a great idea or I'd really like to make more, but if I do, then I lose some of my freebies.  

I deal with it every year, people that make just enough to qualify for EIC, but don't make too much to lose the benefit (most try to make enough to max out their EIC as the amounts are a on a bell curve.  And do I have to deal with couples claiming to be single and dividing up the kids so that they can max out the EIC ??  BZZZZTTTTT Sorry, but that's illegal.  If you are married you file MARRIED FILING JOINTLY or MARRIED FILING SEPARATELY.  The former will allow you to claim the EIC, the later will not.   You cannot file SINGLE or HEAD OF HOUSEHOLD.  QUALIFYING WIDOW(ER) is right out. )

MechAg94 is correct, people are lazy if allowed to be.  There is also system capture.  I saw it with the homeless, they will do just enough to keep the freebies, but not enough to escape and lose the freebies.

Any type of government guarantees as to income or food are doomed to fail, either by design (can you say Venezuela) or via fraud and abuse.  

And I distinctly remember .gov cheese and butter growing up.  Not because we qualified for it, but because my Dad owned a tavern.  One day a guy came wanting a beer, but he had no money.  He offered my dad a block of .gov cheese in exchange.  My dad agreed to the trade.

Within a week, he was inundated with guys coming in with .gov cheese and butter looking to trade for beer.

We had cheese and butter for breakfast, lunch and dinner every day of the week.  Dad gave away cheese and butter to neighbors, friends, and relatives.  I remember one trip to my mom's side of the family in southern Illinois where we brought two big coolers of cheese and butter to give to them.

I would bet that some people signed up for the free cheese just to turn it into a free beer.  
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 02:02:52 PM by Amy Schumer »
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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2017, 01:42:19 PM »
As for government cheese, I've said before that I'd favor ditching virtually all food stamp programs in favor of a simple system granting 8 Humanitarian Daily Rations per week to every citizen who cares to collect them.  Then, not only do you have 2200+ calories every day but you can even save up your spares and have a month's supply stashed away in just over half a year.  According to the pricing I've seen, at that level of bulk purchase, they'd be well under $1 each, vegetarian, halal, etc. and with no qualifications, the workload to determine who gets them is completely eliminated.  Sell extras for $1.50 each to help fund the program and give people who need or just want the extra calories a cheaper option than McDonalds.  If Bill Gates wants to supplement his income to the tune of maybe $8 per week by picking his rations up and selling them to fat people cheaper than the government price for extras, fine, but I'm betting that system would self-regulate so that only people for whom food is a significant part of the budget actually go get them.

While you or I might think that is reasonable, I'm not sure that is where the UBI people are. Maybe not the UBI supporters on APS, but the coastal elite types in favor of it do not seem to be looking for some "minimum daily requirements" thing. As part of "basic", they mean UBI is high enough so you can buy the same food anyone with a median income job might buy, or else they look at the Michelle Obama food model. They certainly don't seem to be looking at something as "demeaning" as going to some gov sponsored food warehouse.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2017, 02:21:28 PM »
Any type of government guarantees as to income or food are doomed to fail, either by design (can you say Venezuela) or via fraud and abuse.

Hence the preference for a system that places a much higher reward on working (by not taking away benefits over paltry amounts of other income) and isn't worth the risk of fraud.  ($6000/year is hard to justify going to prison over) 

The cheapass rations system, OTOH, is basically fraud proof; if every citizen can get 8/wk for free, and more for $2 or less each, (and no need for any identity or citizenship verification on the extras) who the heck is going to chance anything to get more?  I can't think of a situation where it would be worth even a risk of a $50 fine to come up with one or more fake identities to get free extras when you couldn't sell them for enough to make even $16/identity/week because anyone can buy them legitimately for that price.  (Even without the cheap extras, the only situation I could think of would be someone unwilling to ID themselves to any official due to outstanding warrants or similar, paying over market value for others to get them extras, but even then I think it would be easier to find someone sympathetic who doesn't use the program anyway and pay their gas money for the trip to the nearest distribution point.)

While you or I might think that is reasonable, I'm not sure that is where the UBI people are. Maybe not the UBI supporters on APS, but the coastal elite types in favor of it do not seem to be looking for some "minimum daily requirements" thing. As part of "basic", they mean UBI is high enough so you can buy the same food anyone with a median income job might buy, or else they look at the Michelle Obama food model. They certainly don't seem to be looking at something as "demeaning" as going to some gov sponsored food warehouse.

Then they are welcome to foot the bill for it.  With their own money, not anyone else's unless it's freely donated.

Honestly, there have been times in my life when I would have been thrilled to see exactly the two-part system I laid out, and I suspect many others who have spent some time being actually broke would agree.  I doubt a lot of those who see jail as three meals a day and a dry bed would object to it, especially if there were also cheap bulk housing like a barracks or long-term hostel model to go with it.  I would gladly have traded my $900/mo efficiency apartment in Dallas plus the monthly utilities for a year or more renting a $200 or less bunk and locker to save up a down payment for a house.

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Re: Zuckerberg Pushes "Universal Basic Income"
« Reply #49 on: May 30, 2017, 03:11:21 PM »
Hence the preference for a system that places a much higher reward on working (by not taking away benefits over paltry amounts of other income) and isn't worth the risk of fraud.  ($6000/year is hard to justify going to prison over) 

The cheapass rations system, OTOH, is basically fraud proof; if every citizen can get 8/wk for free, and more for $2 or less each, (and no need for any identity or citizenship verification on the extras) who the heck is going to chance anything to get more?  I can't think of a situation where it would be worth even a risk of a $50 fine to come up with one or more fake identities to get free extras when you couldn't sell them for enough to make even $16/identity/week because anyone can buy them legitimately for that price.  (Even without the cheap extras, the only situation I could think of would be someone unwilling to ID themselves to any official due to outstanding warrants or similar, paying over market value for others to get them extras, but even then I think it would be easier to find someone sympathetic who doesn't use the program anyway and pay their gas money for the trip to the nearest distribution point.)

Then they are welcome to foot the bill for it.  With their own money, not anyone else's unless it's freely donated.

Honestly, there have been times in my life when I would have been thrilled to see exactly the two-part system I laid out, and I suspect many others who have spent some time being actually broke would agree.  I doubt a lot of those who see jail as three meals a day and a dry bed would object to it, especially if there were also cheap bulk housing like a barracks or long-term hostel model to go with it.  I would gladly have traded my $900/mo efficiency apartment in Dallas plus the monthly utilities for a year or more renting a $200 or less bunk and locker to save up a down payment for a house.


Well, either I don't know what UBI is, or some of you guys don't. Universal means everybody gets it. EVERYBODY.

If we're talking about ways to get people off welfare or provide food for those that can't afford it, that's not UBI. That's simply another form of group specific welfare. Maybe better than the current system, but still focused on "the poor". 
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."