Author Topic: More language mangled by the PC crowd  (Read 1162 times)

Hawkmoon

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More language mangled by the PC crowd
« on: May 27, 2017, 11:30:34 AM »
Marine officers couldn't keep it in their pants for the duration of a conference in Bogota. Not good, but unsurprising.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/article152948834.html

Quote
At least two of the officers blacked out in their rooms, apparently in the company of two local women, while another officer drew cash advances off his U.S. government travel card and brought two prostitutes to his room, according to the report. Some of the Feb. 3-4 activity was captured on hotel security cameras. The three officers walked four women through the hotel lobby at about 4:30 a.m., past fellow Marine officers who were mustering for a van ride to the airport at the end of the conference.

Here's the part that grabs me by my editorial throat and body slams me:

Quote
He [MARFORSOUTH spokesman Gunnery Sgt. Zachary Dyer] also said his unit “takes all allegations of misconduct seriously, and has thoroughly investigated this incident. … Marines are expected to uphold high standards of personal conduct and this command will appropriately address allegations of substantiated misconduct.

Really? The incident was recorded on hotel security video, and the three officers (ahem) "escorted" their female companions through the lobby in full view of other Marine officers who were waiting for a shuttle to the airport. Apparently, the MARFORSOUTH command investigation has been concluded and has determined that the misconduct did take place. So if the misconduct is substantiated, why is it necessary to speak of "allegations"? Perhaps he meant "substantiated allegations of misconduct"? Or maybe "allegations of substantial misconduct"? An allegation is an [as yet] unproven accusation. If the misconduct has been substantiated, it is not unproven and, therefore, it is incorrect to refer to the accusations as "allegations."
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: More language mangled by the PC crowd
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2017, 12:05:49 PM »
Sometimes, it's hard to remember the primary mission is to drain the swamp when you are up to your ass in alligators allegories allegations
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

MechAg94

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Re: More language mangled by the PC crowd
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2017, 12:17:47 PM »
Hard to say, but I imagine the purpose of the statement to the press was to get the press off their backs without throwing them or anyone else under the bus, not to communicate any sort of truth. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Scout26

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Re: More language mangled by the PC crowd
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2017, 04:17:45 PM »
It's still alleged until the UCMJ proceedings are completed.  What it looks like is this is either the Marine Corps version of 15-6* or perhaps Article 32 (Although it does not mention a hearing) .


*- 
Quote
a. AR 15-6 sets forth procedures for the conduct of informal and formal investigations. Only informal investigations will be discussed here. Informal investigations are those that usually have a single investigating officer who conducts interviews and collects evidence. In contrast, formal investigations normally involve due process hearings for a designated respondent. Formal procedures are required whenever a respondent is designated.

    b. Informal procedures are not intended to provide a hearing for persons who may have an interest in the subject of the investigation. Since no respondents are designated in informal procedures, no one is entitled to the rights of a respondent, such as notice of the proceedings, an opportunity to participate, representation by counsel, or the right to call and cross-examine witnesses. The investigating officer may, however, make any relevant findings or recommendations concerning individuals, even where those findings or recommendations are adverse to the individual or individuals concerned.

    c. AR 15-6 is used as the basis for many investigations requiring the detailed gathering and analyzing of facts, and the making of recommendations based on those facts. AR 15-6 procedures may be used on their own, such as in an investigation to determine facts and circumstances, or the procedures may be incorporated by reference into directives governing specific types of investigations, such as reports of survey and line of duty investigations. If such directives contain guidance that is more specific than that set forth in AR 15-6 or these procedures, the more specific guidance will control. For example, AR 15-6 does not contain time limits for completion of investigations; however, if another directive that incorporates AR 15-6 procedures contains time limits, that requirement will apply.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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RevDisk

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Re: More language mangled by the PC crowd
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2017, 09:05:55 PM »

It's allegations until proven in court or UCMJ proceedings. Even if it was done in front of the Pope, the ghost of Chesty Puller and your mother.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Hawkmoon

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Re: More language mangled by the PC crowd
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2017, 10:05:09 PM »
It's still alleged until the UCMJ proceedings are completed.  What it looks like is this is either the Marine Corps version of 15-6* or perhaps Article 32 (Although it does not mention a hearing) .


*- 

Legally you are correct -- grammatically you are not correct. Grammatically, if the misdeed has been "substantiated," it is no longer an allegation, it is a fact.
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Scout26

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Re: More language mangled by the PC crowd
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2017, 01:49:21 AM »
Legally you are correct -- grammatically you are not correct. Grammatically, if the misdeed has been "substantiated," it is no longer an allegation, it is a fact.

Nope, until proven in a Court of Law or Courts Martial, they are still allegations.  Otherwise the defense can show that jury pool has been tainted because the press is already calling them guilty.  And the press can get in all kinds of trouble (being sue for libel for example) because nothing has been "substantiated" in a court.


Everything is an allegation until the judge and/or jury says otherwise.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Hawkmoon

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Re: More language mangled by the PC crowd
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2017, 10:47:55 AM »
You're still playing lawyer when I'm talking about writing. All he had to do was leave out the work "substantiated."
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Scout26

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Re: More language mangled by the PC crowd
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2017, 06:12:08 PM »
You're still playing lawyer when I'm talking about writing. All he had to do was leave out the work "substantiated."

He's quoting the Gunny.  Your issue is with him.  But what says is correct.   Replace it with the opposite word "unsubstantiated".  It doesn't make sense.

"this command will appropriately address allegations of unsubstantiated misconduct."

He's taking about what MARSOUTH will do.  Address allegations.  Those allegations will be determined to be substantiated or not in a Courts Martial (or other legal proceeding like an Art 15, a GO letter of reprimand, or the officer could resign in lieu of).  But until one (or several) of those things happen, they are still "unsubstantiated allegations".
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Hawkmoon

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Re: More language mangled by the PC crowd
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2017, 10:20:39 PM »
He's quoting the Gunny.  Your issue is with him.  But what says is correct.   Replace it with the opposite word "unsubstantiated".  It doesn't make sense.

"this command will appropriately address allegations of unsubstantiated misconduct."

He's taking about what MARSOUTH will do.  Address allegations.  Those allegations will be determined to be substantiated or not in a Courts Martial (or other legal proceeding like an Art 15, a GO letter of reprimand, or the officer could resign in lieu of).  But until one (or several) of those things happen, they are still "unsubstantiated allegations".

I was referring to the Gunny's statement. And I didn't say he should have substituted "unsubstantiated" (although, according to you, all allegations are "unsubstantiated" until there's a conviction in court). I said he should have just left out "substantiated." The statement would then have referred to "alleged misconduct," which would be both grammatically and legally correct. "Allegations of substantiated misconduct" is an oxymoron.
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T.O.M.

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Re: More language mangled by the PC crowd
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2017, 10:58:42 PM »
Reminds me of social worker/child abuse investigator talk.  They get a "referral" to investigate.  The "referral" is "ruled out" if there's nothing to it, "indicated" if there's something to it, and "substantiated" if there's enough evidence to refer the matter for court proceedings.  The "substantiated referral" then becomes an "allegation" when a complaint is filed.  It then is dismissed if not proven, or becomes an "adjudicated allegation" or "adjudication" if proven in court.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

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