Author Topic: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day  (Read 11000 times)

RevDisk

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2017, 09:59:51 AM »

It all really depends on your business model for if cloud makes sense or not. Multi gig CAD drawings, can't cloud it. Lots of small word docs, pictures and whatnot? Can cloud it. Mixed cloud can be interesting, but is getting easier.



All of our web sites are rented dumb Linux VM, because it's so ridiculously cheap you'd have to be an idiot to self-host that.

Email is starting to look cheaper to rent than run. We're moving to O365 because Microsoft isn't giving people a choice about it. Some parts make me happy, some parts are enraging. My 'home email' I moved from a self-run postfix to Google Business. $5/month? *expletive deleted*it, I'd pay more than that for not having to deal with spam filtering alone. They throw in dozens if not hundreds of free extra stuff.

I just wish business wise we could go with Google over MS, for pricing/security/reliability/futureproofing/etc. Unfortunately, our users probably can't handle the complexity of using bog simple web pages used by a billion teenagers everyday, so O365 it is. Microsoft is expensive and they make incredibly stupid decisions that are openly hostile to their business users, on par with Apple. But they have a captive audience of millions of office workers barely competent at the desktop tools they are sort of familiar with and incapable of substantial change.

Cloud DB is nosebleedingly expensive unless you go with Amazon DB or mysql/FOSS. Pricing out 700GB azure SQL server was...  fun.

We're not at ubiquitous computing, datacenter/bandwidth is a long way from utility and cloud still has a very very long way to mature or become trustworthy. I give it another... three decades? Maybe. I'm optimistic.
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TechMan

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2017, 11:45:29 AM »
I have a couple of more years on a few Equallogic boxes, that should give me enough time to see what HP does to Nimble.  We are looking at a PanZura device to put our Revit models out into the AWS cloud.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2017, 02:31:32 PM »
"We're on a project to go almost 100% cloud over the next two years."

Ah, the cloud...

Always laughed at the concept.

All it means is that your data is now on off-site servers, which are out of your control. They're not electron bits floating freely around in "a cloud.'

(rubs hands gleefully) Oh boy, this has suddenly become one of those threads where we flip a coin and see if Mike shows an ounce of humility and learns something, or just gets angrier and angrier until it's locked.  :angel:
I promise not to duck.

Fitz

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2017, 02:55:01 PM »
People who think the cloud is nothing more than remote servers don't understand the cloud

It's not about the infrastructure , it's about the automation, commoditizing of hardware , and multi geo/ HADR that's transparent to the consuming service



The "hurr durr it's another computer " types not only don't understand the tech, but as is evident here, they don't even understand the origin of the term. The term cloud has never been about "electrons floating around". It was a term to describe the obfuscation of the underlying service fabric, and the notion that the underlying infrastructure didn't matter much because of the aforementioned commoditization


Considering the industry shift, anyone in IT who is still ignorant of the cloud would do well to ensure they actually make an effort to understand the tech, as the days of on prem services for many technologies are numbered


In fact, had the company involved been on my service, I would have had their database back in 15 minutes
Fitz

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AJ Dual

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2017, 03:00:28 PM »
You know... putting your stuff on "someone else's computer" that's massively parallel, distributed, fault-tolerant/redundant to a degree that even most Fortune 500 companies can't afford on their own, in a secure datacenter with 2-3 different kinds of infrastructure/power backup, and is actually spread out running in parallel over several U.S. states, different continents even... is "stupid", because reasons=D
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2017, 03:00:53 PM »

Considering the industry shift, anyone in IT who is still ignorant of the cloud would do well to ensure they actually make an effort to understand the tech, as the days of on prem services for many technologies are numbered

Bewaaaaare the cloud...  :old:

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RevDisk

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2017, 03:17:41 PM »
"We're on a project to go almost 100% cloud over the next two years."

Ah, the cloud...

Always laughed at the concept.

All it means is that your data is now on off-site servers, which are out of your control. They're not electron bits floating freely around in "a cloud.'
(rubs hands gleefully) Oh boy, this has suddenly become one of those threads where we flip a coin and see if Mike shows an ounce of humility and learns something, or just gets angrier and angrier until it's locked.  :angel:

Angrier and angrier, obviously.

I'm not quite as leery about cloud as I used to be. One simple reason. The customers now collectively have enough lawyers to make the providers live up to expectations. It's also maturing. The weaker players have been shaken out. AWS and Azure will stick around. AWS is essentially larger than the next handful of cloud providers put together, but that will change because MS is 'forcing' a lot of people towards Azure if they want to use MS products. AWS is making money hand over fist. If you told me that Amazon's IT department was more profitable than the rest of the business combined, I wouldn't remotely be surprised.

That said, you can lose your shirt if you don't know what you are doing. It's just as dangerous as running your own internal resources if you don't have a clue. AWS and similar clouds are huge huge huge targets for rogue entities. State sponsored hacker groups like China, Russia or our own 'beloved' NSA are definitely threats against our core infrastructure. On the other hand, cloud providers have more niche security staff than even megacorps generally can hire full time. Renting your infrastructure vs owning can make economic sense. It's a thousand times more dangerous and complex than the 'cloud' marketing says, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

Again, tiny linux servers? You'd have to be flat out insane to self-host at current pricing. That's where "cloud" is the norm and self-hosting has become unusual.

Netflix, for example, generally runs none of their own infrastructure and they're essentially the largest content provider on the internet (possibly the entire world). Except for maybe Youtube. They don't run their cloud infrastructure like any person would run their domestic infrastructure. Nifty thing is, they open source huge amount of their tooling, which is flat out insane. Good, but insane. I'd explain chaos monkeys and dynamic load balancing and hadoop and all kinds of other stuff.

But it's not something to immediately write off. This is coming from a guy that firmly reminds people that there is no cloud, it's just renting a server from someone else.


People who think the cloud is nothing more than remote servers don't understand the cloud


Correct. Some routers and switches are involved as well.   =D


Considering the industry shift, anyone in IT who is still ignorant of the cloud would do well to ensure they actually make an effort to understand the tech, as the days of on prem services for many technologies are numbered

I worry people actually believe this as a real meaningful statement. I mean, if you REALLY know what you're doing, yes, kinda sorta not really. If you taking to the average manager, it's important to make eye contact and explain it's a marketing statement. IaaS and SaaS are tools. Potentially good tools. But they're just another tool in the bucket of other tools. Maybe a major tool that you use for a huge part of your daily job. Anyone trying to sell you a hammer that swears it will obsolete every other tool in the bucket is lying, because they're being paid to lie to you. I'm not bashing Fitz, he knows exactly what I mean. He also knows to beware of idiots with high spending authorization that stupidly listen to marketing drones over their own people.

It's equal stupid to swear a tool is never useful as it is to claim it is useful for absolutely everything. Bandwidth is not universal and not falling at predicted rates. And I mean for bloody everything. Home, cell or fiber. Because the telecoms own Congress. I don't see that changing. That's the fundamental limit on IaaS, SaaS and every other XaaS. Most of the country has one provider and very unpromising backup providers. If you DO have hardened multiply redundant interwebz connections at appropriate speeds, then yes, it's a good gamble with only moderate risk.

That said, and I tell anyone with cloudz fever, make sure you always have an exit strategy. Prices could go up, businesses close, quality and support change. People ALWAYS go pants on head retarded eventually.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 03:36:09 PM by RevDisk »
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Fitz

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2017, 06:20:18 PM »
I didn't say all, I said many. And it's true. And actually, most of the shift will be in the PaaS space.


PaaS, microservices, containers etc. That's where people are building their products because it's far and away the most stable, scalable, and secure place to do it.


Of all the people who decry the lack of security in the cloud, the "high" cost, etc. I've only actually met one who was doing a better job than the major providers.

Economy of scale doesn't just go away because some yokel thinks the cloud is dumb. and you KNOW i'm not talking about guys like you.


I'm talking about probably 70 percent of "professional" IT shops who are terrible. I'm talking about the legions of "professionals" who were vulnerable to wannacry after the fix had been in the wild for a month. I'm talking about guys who still say their data has to "stay with us! Not in someone else's server!" and then have essentially NO HADR plan.

Managed services absolutely will be taking over for the majority of enterprise grade applications. My application alone has had 3700% growth in 3 years. 3 years. It's getting to the point that MS is considering dropping on prem support entirely. Right now the on prem product is just a way to entice customers with "hybrid" features, or "please dip your toes in the cloud and OH LOOK HOW EASY IT IS" stuff.


People make big waves in the news about outages that cloud providers have, but they usually fail to mention that those "mnassive" outages end up bringing EOM reliability to 99.99 percent or so.

Show me someone that can consistently do 4 9's of availability and i'll show you one of two things: either a liar, or someone who's not actually tracking their service uptime
Fitz

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TechMan

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2017, 09:29:16 PM »
I love SaaS for almost everything.  I have had Office 365 since the end of 2011 and happily pay for it and won't consider moving to any other platform.  It just works and I don't have to be an Exchange expert to make it work.  I don't have to invest in backup software and I don't have to invest in new hardware.
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K Frame

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2017, 09:51:32 AM »
"People who think the cloud is nothing more than remote servers don't understand the cloud

It's not about the infrastructure , it's about the automation, commoditizing of hardware , and multi geo/ HADR that's transparent to the consuming service"

You mean that there's actually other stuff involved, mechanisms, processes, procedures, blah blah blah that make "the cloud" work?????

Well DUH!

But at its very heart, it's still data stored on remote devices that are, as often as not, out of your direct control.

If, as you claim, the cloud isn't about the infrastructure, that infers that you can simply delete the infrastructure, right? Well then, where is your data stored? Where do your applications reside? Where's your active directory base?

The infrastructure is as critical to the operation of the cloud as the concept is, as without one, you don't have the other.

But, if it makes you happy, I'll ask the other members of the high availability-disaster recovery cloud group I've been sitting on for the last 18 months to sent me to a re-education camp...  ;/


« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 10:14:54 AM by Mike Irwin »
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K Frame

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2017, 10:02:38 AM »
"Angrier and angrier, obviously."

Actually more and more entertained by all of the people who are quickly jumping to the "defense" of the cloud to tell me that my base assessment -- that it's nothing more than data stored somewhere else instead of in internal data centers -- is wrong and that somehow I just don't have the understands because, you know... LEVELS OF TECHNOLOGY!


HURPDY DURPDY DOO! DOMAIN DEVICES! SCALERS! PROTOCOLS! MAGICAL DEVICES! YOU CAN ONLY APPRECIATE THE CLOUD IF YOUR ARCHITECT THE CLOUD!



Right.

Well no flying *expletive deleted*ck there's a lot of conceptualization and technology behind "the cloud" and how it works.

But it still boils down to data storage. You're either storing your data internally, in your own data centers, or your storing your data externally in "the cloud." Which is external data centers.

In some cases it makes a LOT of sense for an organization.

In other cases, no.



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Fitz

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2017, 10:34:18 AM »
Heh

You should calm down
Fitz

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AJ Dual

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2017, 10:47:19 AM »
I promise not to duck.

K Frame

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2017, 10:57:14 AM »
Heh

You should calm down

You should learn to understand derisive sarcasm and mockery.

I also mock those idiots where I work who think that the cloud is either:

1. The answer to ALL of the customer's problems, and everything should be on the external vendor cloud! (Yeah really? Even the top secret diplomatic *expletive deleted*it.... really?)

2. The most evil thing ever, and it's just an open door with a big welcome sign for the Chinese/Russians/North Koreans/whomever to steal our data.

I guess I need to add a third category...

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Fitz

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2017, 11:04:15 AM »
"Grumpy dudes who fly into a profanity laden diatribe when someone suggests that their oversimplification of a technology is incorrect?"

I mean, I'm one too, but come on dude :-)

You either knew precisely what I meant when I said the cloud was about the infrastructure , and were deliberately being obtuse, or. Well I don't know actually

Offsite hosting has always been a thing, the cloud is notably different. And if it's a "no duh " situation, considering most of the denizens of this board are NOT privy to the details, maybe some more explanation is in order

Or, you know, you could just post some random oversimplification then be a toolbag when someone disagrees. That's way more entertaining at least !  =D
Fitz

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Fitz

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2017, 11:09:53 AM »
Woops
Fitz

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K Frame

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2017, 11:11:07 AM »
The concept for the cloud has been around since the first mainframe days of the 1950s. And you're still wrong. The cloud is not just about infrastructure. Infrastructure is part of it. Capabilities and capacities are also part of it. And data storage is at its very core.

And gee. I'm the only person here to every hyper simplify something. I'm such an evil, evil person.  ;/

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Fitz

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2017, 11:12:03 AM »
The concept for the cloud has been around since the first mainframe days of the 1950s. And you're still wrong. The cloud is not just about infrastructure. Infrastructure is part of it. Capabilities and capacities are also part of it. And data storage is at its very core.

And gee. I'm the only person here to every hyper simplify something. I'm such an evil, evil person.  ;/



The cloud is not just about infrastructure. Wait a sec

You agreeing with me now?

What did you say here that differed from my first reply?

Better yet , what did you say here that's a bit different than YOUR first reply?

Fitz

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K Frame

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2017, 11:15:21 AM »
You miss this or something?

"You mean that there's actually other stuff involved, mechanisms, processes, procedures, blah blah blah that make "the cloud" work?Huh??

Well DUH!"

That's sarcasm and mockery, Sheldon.
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Fitz

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2017, 11:17:18 AM »
No i didn't miss that, I already addressed it. I.e. It's different than your first reply in this thread, which was wrong


Fitz

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You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

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Fitz

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2017, 11:18:36 AM »
So you come in a thread, say something inaccurate, then later say something accurate while being a cock

Got it

  =D

As long as I'm clear on your tactics. I'll keep it in mind for the future
Fitz

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BobR

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2017, 11:21:01 AM »
I know nothing about the cloud except it is some place above where all the data goes to die(?).



;)  :)

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2017, 11:22:59 AM »
"All it means is that your data is now on off-site servers, which are out of your control. They're not electron bits floating freely around in "a cloud.'"

OK, so what's so inaccurate about these statements?


Is cloud data stored on off-site servers? Generally yes. It is. Unless you're running your own internal cloud. Then it's not really a cloud.

Are these servers out of your control? Unless you're running your own internal cloud (which again, isn't really a cloud) yes they are. You're taking it on faith that the vendors are doing their due diligence.

Is your data actually floating around freely in white puffy clouds? Are you an idiot?


So, explain in great detail, how ANY of that is inaccurate for the purpose of cloud computing/cloud storage?

EDUCATE ME, CLOUD MASTER!



Oh, wait, you mean I didn't acknowledge that there's an architecture behind the cloud? So that must mean I think all of that data, and all of those applications, are transported via Amish horse and buggy, right?
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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2017, 11:30:02 AM »
"All it means is that your data is now on off-site servers, which are out of your control. They're not electron bits floating freely around in "a cloud.'"

OK, so what's so inaccurate about these statements?


Is cloud data stored on off-site servers? Generally yes. It is. Unless you're running your own internal cloud. Then it's not really a cloud.

Are these servers out of your control? Unless you're running your own internal cloud (which again, isn't really a cloud) yes they are. You're taking it on faith that the vendors are doing their due diligence.

Is your data actually floating around freely in white puffy clouds? Are you an idiot?


So, explain in great detail, how ANY of that is inaccurate for the purpose of cloud computing/cloud storage?

EDUCATE ME, CLOUD MASTER!



Oh, wait, you mean I didn't acknowledge that there's an architecture behind the cloud? So that must mean I think all of that data, and all of those applications, are transported via Amish horse and buggy, right?


No,


AJ mentioned his company was moving into the cloud. You went into "lol the cloud" and "it's not just data floating around."

Which AJ didn't say was the case. You wanted to come into a thread and ridicule someone for using an industry colloquialism for... whatever reason.

you said "all it means"

Which is inaccurate. If you'll read my very first reply on the subject, you'll find nothing inaccurate there. Your post missed many key points, which mght be helpful for the large population of the board who aren't industry folks. Which is why it's silly to play the "lol it's just someone elses computer" card. It's misleading to people who aren't experts, and that's how you get dumb appliances with two hard drives selling for 800 bucks because they're a "personal cloud"


I really don't understand why you've turned this thread into a vehicle to call people idiots and be a jerk. Each successive post from you has been dripping with derision, and i'm not quite sure what anyone has done to earn it.

You should chill out
Fitz

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You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

Fitz

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Re: Junior dev manages to cripple/kill company on first day
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2017, 11:33:17 AM »
a private cloud CAN be a cloud. Being open to the public is irrelevant... go read my first post again
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog