Author Topic: Life imitates art  (Read 3005 times)

Hawkmoon

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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2017, 01:12:25 AM »
Is this Trumps fault or the NRA's?

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2017, 01:17:59 AM »
Is this Trumps fault or the NRA's?



It's islamophobia's fault
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2017, 01:20:15 AM »
But jet fuel can't melt steel.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Hawkmoon

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2017, 06:20:30 AM »
It's Bush's fault. It's an inside job ...

That said -- I was initially referring to the movie starring Paul Newman and Steve McQueen, not to the World Trade Center.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2017, 07:04:25 AM »
You mean, "death imitates art"?
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makattak

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2017, 08:46:51 AM »
I heard this on the radio this morning. I wasn't quite fast enough to turn it off as they played the clip of residents screaming for help.

My only thought was, "why do I need to hear the pain and anguish of people dying or in fear of their life?"

What is wrong with these sickos in the press?
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2017, 08:51:25 AM »
I heard this on the radio this morning. I wasn't quite fast enough to turn it off as they played the clip of residents screaming for help.

My only thought was, "why do I need to hear the pain and anguish of people dying or in fear of their life?"

What is wrong with these sickos in the press?

If it bleeds it leads.
Long standing mantra of journalistsurinalists.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Nick1911

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2017, 09:25:48 AM »
...After a refrigerator "exploded"?

Interesting.

I've been seeing R-600a starting to show up in refrigerators in the US.  Isobutane.  Quite flammable, but better for the environment.  I'll be curious if that had anything to do with this fire.

agricola

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2017, 05:53:15 PM »
...After a refrigerator "exploded"?

Interesting.

I've been seeing R-600a starting to show up in refrigerators in the US.  Isobutane.  Quite flammable, but better for the environment.  I'll be curious if that had anything to do with this fire.

Apparently (according to media reports here) it was a single-flat fire which proceeded to ignite cladding that the housing association put on the outside of the block in order to beautify the structure (previously it was patterned albeit bare concrete on the outside).  The cladding may also have acted like a wrap-around flue, causing the fire to race up and around the entire tower and set alight to many of the flats above where it started (with it being reasonably warm last night many of the flats may have had open windows).   There are unconfirmed reports that the death toll is considerably greater than the current total (twelve). 

The whole incident is of course exacerbated by the massive pressure on social housing (no new building, selling off of old buildings, cuts to council funding) in London which basically has guaranteed that places like this will be packed and will be maintained on a shoestring.  What makes it worse is that there was a similar fire (at Lakanal House in Southwark in 2009 where six people died) where the coroner made certain recommendations in the inquest which seem to have been ignored by the Government.  Add to that the fact that the same Government spent most of the time between 2010 closing fire (and police) stations, boasting of "making bonfires of unnecessary regulation" like building safety, and that most of the people who bear some responsibility for this (Boris especially, but also the PM's new chief of staff Gavin Barwell) are Tories and its probably no exaggeration to say that if this had happened last week then the hilarious kicking the PM got at the election would have instead been an entirely serious and comprehensive shoeing of the 1945 / 1997 kind. 
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2017, 06:16:58 PM »
There are unconfirmed reports that the death toll is considerably greater than the current total (twelve). 


That doesn't surprise me in the least. Quoted death toll is usually confirmed fatalities. Given the building's total involvement and the number of residents potentially trapped by smoke or flames it may be days - possibly weeks - before they find and/or identify any remains, much less finish accounting for persons missing.

Brad
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230RN

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2017, 02:53:13 AM »
Of possible historical or theoretical significance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire

This is not meant to be a thread veer, but is just for general information on the dangers of living or working above the second floor and how we blithely forget history.

Yes, we have modern sprinkler systems and hi-rise ladders and fireproofed stairwells, but as in the WTC incidents, sometimes there's no escape or effective fire control.

And yes, there's risk-balancing involved: "Do I want to live and work in a high-rise?"  I'll visit high floors, and my "trepidation" will be pretty minimal, but there was still a sense of "what if" whenever we had a fire drill in our building.

We got lucky in this one, floors 78 to 80 of the Empire State Building, and it was a Saturday:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-25_Empire_State_Building_crash

Quote
One engine shot through the South side opposite the impact and flew as far as the next block, dropping 900 feet (270 m) and landing on the roof of a nearby building and starting a fire that destroyed a penthouse art studio.
The other engine and part of the landing gear plummeted down an elevator shaft. The resulting fire was extinguished in 40 minutes. It is still the only fire at such a height to be brought under control.

And check out "Betty Lou Oliver" in that article.

Terry

ADDL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyscraper_fire#Notable_fires
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 03:16:26 AM by 230RN »

Hawkmoon

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2017, 07:48:35 AM »
The NRA "Refuse to be a Victim" class advocates never staying above the tenth floor in a hotel. The reason is that fire department ladder trucks can't access floors higher than the tenth.

[Disclaimer: I'm certified to teach RTBAV]
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K Frame

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2017, 07:54:09 AM »
...After a refrigerator "exploded"?

Interesting.

I've been seeing R-600a starting to show up in refrigerators in the US.  Isobutane.  Quite flammable, but better for the environment.  I'll be curious if that had anything to do with this fire.


Time to go back to sulfur dioxide systems!
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2017, 09:58:25 AM »

Time to go back to sulfur dioxide systems!

Ammonia FTW.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Nick1911

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2017, 10:31:50 AM »

Time to go back to sulfur dioxide systems!

Transcritical CO2 systems, most likely.

MechAg94

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2017, 10:37:21 AM »
Just say FU and go back to R12.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2017, 09:26:23 PM »
Since this sort of thing is what my career has been about (preventing such fires, not promoting them than you very much), I've been looking for clues. I think I found one. In the recent 10 million pound renovation, the concrete (translation -- non-combustible) exterior was clad with decorative panels called Reynobond. As might be gathered from the name, these are a product of Reynolds Aluminum. From what I gather, they appear to be an insulated cladding panel with a thin aluminum skin bonded to a foam plastic insulating layer.

Problem: most plastic foams are highly combustible. There are some types that aren't, and the difference can be crucial. For example, in the Station Nightclub fire, it was discovered that the owners installed a non-treated (i.e. very flammable) eggcrate foam on the interior surfaces as sound control, when the building and fire codes required it to be a non-combustible type. But the non-treated type is cheaper.

Fast forward to the fire in London. Reynobond literature: https://www.arconic.com/aap/north_america/catalog/pdf/brochures/reynobond_brochure.pdf

Quote
Reynobond is designed and tested to meet sfaety and environmental building codes around the world. It is available with either a polyethylene (PE) core or a fire-resistant (FR) core material, both of which provide the flatness and formability required for your most demanding applications.

Based on past experience, I'm willing to go out on a limb and predict that the verson with the FR core is more expensive, so the bean counters decided to use the PE core version. BAD decision.
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Sideways_8

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2017, 09:40:05 PM »
I personally don't see why they would prefer a non-concrete outside anyways. Spray it with something to seal out the water from the concrete, and then let it show. However I am involved with a lot of concrete work so I may be biased.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2017, 10:07:00 PM »
...After a refrigerator "exploded"?

Interesting.

I've been seeing R-600a starting to show up in refrigerators in the US.  Isobutane.  Quite flammable, but better for the environment.  I'll be curious if that had anything to do with this fire.

There have been multiple references to a faulty refrigerator having started the fire. While that may be the case, it still should not have resulted in anything of this magnitude. A fire that started inside one unit should have been contained within that unit. I investigated a hotel fire a number of years ago. There had been a fire in one unit, the fire WAS contained entirely to that one unit, and there wasn't even smoke damage to the units on either side. But the municipal building inspector had a hard on for the owner of the property, so he condemned the entire hotel -- including a second building that was located on the same property.

 :facepalm:
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Nick1911

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2017, 03:23:19 PM »
There have been multiple references to a faulty refrigerator having started the fire. While that may be the case, it still should not have resulted in anything of this magnitude. A fire that started inside one unit should have been contained within that unit. I investigated a hotel fire a number of years ago. There had been a fire in one unit, the fire WAS contained entirely to that one unit, and there wasn't even smoke damage to the units on either side. But the municipal building inspector had a hard on for the owner of the property, so he condemned the entire hotel -- including a second building that was located on the same property.

 :facepalm:

Oh, I agree completely, an appliance fire (if it was) certainly should not have resulted in the whole building being engulfed.  Really tragic.  :'(

Hawkmoon

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Re: Life imitates art
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2017, 05:46:31 PM »
I saw a new article today. Someone (I think it was the contractor who actually installed the exterior cladding panels) confirmed that they used Reynobond PE (the stuff that <obviously> burns), and that the FR version costs £2 more per square meter. So using the flammable stuff saved someone between a quarter and a half million bucks -- and killed possibly 100 people.

The questions to be answered now are, who made the decision to use the cheap stuff, and how did it ever get past whatever passes for building code reviews and inspections in London? In the U.S. we haven't been allowed to use polyethylene even as roof insulation for decades.

I also saw a floor plan of the building. 24 stories, and it only had ONE fire exit stair. I'm having a lot of difficulty understanding how that could have been allowed, especially in a high-rise building.
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