Author Topic: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter  (Read 18006 times)

dm1333

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2017, 03:30:40 PM »
Actually from the NY Times article that you posted, the Captain was the XO on the USS Fitzgerald from 11/2015 to 3/17 when he took over as Captain.  Because of that I think it is fair to hold him accountable.

The moment you salute and offer your relief and the other person salutes back the responsibility is yours.  It may not seem fair in some instances but that Commander has known that this is the way it works since he was an Ensign.

Scout26

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2017, 04:53:48 PM »
Yep, the captain's career is over.  Probably a few others as well.

I'd be surprised if there is any UCMJ action.  But Chaos6Actual gets the final say...
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AJ Dual

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2017, 05:55:49 PM »
Assuming the position/track charts I'm seeing are accurate, it really, really, really looks like the ACX Crystal  intentionally doubled-back twice as if it were deliberately trying to strike the Fitzgerald.  Perhaps someone more knowledgeable in nautical stuff could give me a reason for these maneuvers.

I'm not saying it couldn't be some other FUBAR sequence of errors or miscommunications, because that kind of thing has certainly happened before with ships, trains, cars, and aircraft... but it looks really damn fishy.  =|

For reference, the impact point is the near 90deg. turn in in the upper left.








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RoadKingLarry

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2017, 06:09:47 PM »
CO was asleep, and new to the ship, which makes it seem a bit unfair to hold him accountable but "the buck stops here" applies. The commanding officer is always ultimately responsible for anything that happens on/to his ship. You really have to wonder what the people on the bridge were doing and thinking. It's dangerous to guess, but I'll take a try and guess that they didn't want to change course to go astern of the freighter so they tried to scoot by in front -- and didn't quite make it. Like all those videos on Youtube of people in cars who thought they could beat a train at a rail crossing ...

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Quote
As far as electronic aids, it could be as simple as having a RADAR in True Motion mode instead of Relative Motion mode. Or they ran the collision avoidance solution, liked the answer, and the other ship turned or changed speed.  Or someone just got locked into another target on the other side of the vessel and forgot to check 360.  It's stupid in hindsight, but happens.  Actual RADARs are less cut and dry than you'd think.  there's a lot of dots, some are boats, some aren't.  Some can be tracked automatically, some need to be tracked old fashioned way.  I still drill my watch officers on how to do grease pencil plots directly on the screen and get collision avoidance solutions.

Its been 30+ years ago but I've transited those very same waters standing watch as RADAR operator. It was busy then, I have to expect the traffic is far heavier today. We did it the old fashioned way, grease pencil on the display and if we were in heavy traffic like that we'd have someone else running paper plots on a good old fashioned maneuvering board. All the while manually feeding contact info to the fire control computer operator- ROMEO 57 bearing 235, range 5600 yards...  In open water like that CPA closer than 4K yards got peoples attention, a contact inside 2K yards resulted in a change of course or speed.

Someone suggested they may have been running EMCON, if that is the case whoever ordered that needs to be up on charges as well.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2017, 06:17:37 PM »
Assuming the position/track charts I'm seeing are accurate, it really, really, really looks like the ACX Crystal  intentionally doubled-back twice as if it were deliberately trying to strike the Fitzgerald.  Perhaps someone more knowledgeable in nautical stuff could give me a reason for these maneuvers.

I'm not saying it couldn't be some other FUBAR sequence of errors or miscommunications, because that kind of thing has certainly happened before with ships, trains, cars, and aircraft... but it looks really damn fishy.  =|

For reference, the impact point is the near 90deg. turn in in the upper left.




Crazy Ivan?

Does seem a bit odd in to be doing those type of maneuvers in that area ???
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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RoadKingLarry

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Scout26

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2017, 06:52:04 PM »
Assuming the position/track charts I'm seeing are accurate, it really, really, really looks like the ACX Crystal  intentionally doubled-back twice as if it were deliberately trying to strike the Fitzgerald.  Perhaps someone more knowledgeable in nautical stuff could give me a reason for these maneuvers.

I'm not saying it couldn't be some other FUBAR sequence of errors or miscommunications, because that kind of thing has certainly happened before with ships, trains, cars, and aircraft... but it looks really damn fishy.  =|

For reference, the impact point is the near 90deg. turn in in the upper left.



I think if you take off the tin-foil, and go back to page one of this thread.  Dogmush explains how the 90o turn to starboard at the bottom left of the picture is the impact point.  Followed by ACX Crystal slowing down to assess damage before doubling back to render aid.  Finally, they depart the area after directed to do so by the JCG.
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Ben

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2017, 06:57:31 PM »
I think if you take off the tin-foil, and go back to page one of this thread.  Dogmush explains how the 90o turn to starboard at the bottom left of the picture is the impact point.  Followed by ACX Crystal slowing down to assess damage before doubling back to render aid.  Finally, they depart the area after directed to do so by the JCG.


Yup, Occam's razor works well here. :)

I forget how far back you can go in track history at the free version of marinetraffic.com, but it would be easy enough to go back and check speeds along the track to confirm.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2017, 08:43:55 PM »
I think if you take off the tin-foil, and go back to page one of this thread.  Dogmush explains how the 90o turn to starboard at the bottom left of the picture is the impact point.  Followed by ACX Crystal slowing down to assess damage before doubling back to render aid.  Finally, they depart the area after directed to do so by the JCG.


Why the hell you wanna go around injecting facts into a perfectly good conspiracy theory?!?!
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freakazoid

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2017, 08:58:05 PM »
We did it the old fashioned way, grease pencil on the display and if we were in heavy traffic like that we'd have someone else running paper plots on a good old fashioned maneuvering board.

The OS's down in Combat would run paper plots all the time. The... wow I can't think of his title, the officer that was basically in charge of Combat would be having them run plots to find the closest point of approach on pretty much any vessel that looked like it might come close.

Actually from the NY Times article that you posted, the Captain was the XO on the USS Fitzgerald from 11/2015 to 3/17 when he took over as Captain.  Because of that I think it is fair to hold him accountable.

That's how it actually works, the XO transitions to the CO's position.

Assuming the position/track charts I'm seeing are accurate, it really, really, really looks like the ACX Crystal  intentionally doubled-back twice as if it were deliberately trying to strike the Fitzgerald.  Perhaps someone more knowledgeable in nautical stuff could give me a reason for these maneuvers.

I'm not saying it couldn't be some other FUBAR sequence of errors or miscommunications, because that kind of thing has certainly happened before with ships, trains, cars, and aircraft... but it looks really damn fishy.  =|

To add more tinfoil, I'd read that they took 55 minutes to call in the collision, and then said it had just happened. https://www.rt.com/news/393048-japan-destroyer-collision-late/
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AJ Dual

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2017, 10:46:01 PM »
I think if you take off the tin-foil, and go back to page one of this thread.  Dogmush explains how the 90o turn to starboard at the bottom left of the picture is the impact point.  Followed by ACX Crystal slowing down to assess damage before doubling back to render aid.  Finally, they depart the area after directed to do so by the JCG.


Yeah, I came back to correct that after some more reading. So why are all the arrows ack-basswards?
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dogmush

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2017, 11:56:18 PM »
Yeah, I came back to correct that after some more reading. So why are all the arrows ack-basswards?

They aren't.  ACX Crystal was running ENE prior to the collision.

Quote from: freakazoid
To add more tinfoil, I'd read that they took 55 minutes to call in the collision, and then said it had just happened.
 
I suspect they spent that 55 mins, figuring out what the hell they hit, running damage control, checking the voids in the bulbous bow, explaining it to a suddenly pissed off captain, getting crew accountability, rendering first aid to the inevitable cuts, bruises, and bangs, calling the company, digging out the International SAR manual from where ever they keep it, and making sure their ship wasn't sinking.  When all that was done they called the Coast Guard.

KD5NRH

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2017, 12:21:56 AM »
[tinfoil]
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2017/06/something_is_fishy_about_uss_fitzgerald_story_we_are_getting_from_the_media.html

Uh, yeah, because turning off the nav lights and transponder is all it takes to hide from a frickin' destroyer.  ;/

According to an associate who has a bit more experience than most in this sort of thing:
Quote
By the way, I wanted to add that all of the Arleigh Burke-class DDGs are equipped with the latest version of the AN/SPS-67 surface search radar which includes digital automatic target detection (ATD), track while scan (TWS) and moving target indicator (DMTI). It will detect anything it can see, even something as small as a buoy. And given its height on the mast can detect large ships out to, oh, 16 nautical miles or more. And it has a new track alarm, and feeds into the Command & Decision section of the Aegis Combat System and has repeaters on the Bridge and in Combat.
The Bridge and Combat watches on the Fitzgerald would pretty much have to be dead not to know the range, bearing, course, speed, and closest point of approach of the Crystal while it was still over the horizon before the could even see it.
And as a backup to the 67 they're also all equipped with AN/SPS-73(V)12 surface search and navigation radars, shorter range but higher resolution units.
<<SEPARATE POST>>
For the Crystal to have intentionally successfully rammed the Fitzgerald would have required conspiratorial complicity with virtually the entire Fitzgerald watch team - at least a dozen officers and sailors all on watch at the same time.
It is a certainty that the people spewing this nonsense have never served a day at sea on a US Navy guided missile destroyer, and have not a clue as to what they are talking about. (Note: I have commissioned both a Spruance-class destroyer and a Kidd-class guide missile destroyer.)
I am convinced that the sole cause of this collision was gross incompetence and negligence on the part of the Fitzgerald's officers - specifically unrestricted surface line warfare officers from the Captain on down - probably due to too much training time on racial and gender equality and sensitivity issues and not enough training time on how to drive the ******* ship!

sumpnz

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2017, 01:58:38 AM »
I suspect they spent that 55 mins, figuring out what the hell they hit, running damage control, checking the voids in the bulbous bow, explaining it to a suddenly pissed off captain, getting crew accountability, rendering first aid to the inevitable cuts, bruises, and bangs, calling the company, digging out the International SAR manual from where ever they keep it, and making sure their ship wasn't sinking.  When all that was done they called the Coast Guard.


Marine equivalent of "aviate, navigate, communicate" order of operations in an emergency.

dogmush

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2017, 02:12:08 AM »
Marine equivalent of "aviate, navigate, communicate" order of operations in an emergency.

Yep.  Step 1: DON'T SINK.  Step 2: Find everyone and help them. Step 3. Make sure you will continue NOT SINKING for a while.  Step 4: Report accident.

KD5NRH

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2017, 03:19:28 AM »
Marine equivalent of "aviate, navigate, communicate" order of operations in an emergency.

Except that I'm pretty sure "tell somebody with the resources to come get us if we are sinking that we've hit something" is pretty high on the priority list; you want that message to go out as early as possible so they can at least prep the resources, know where you are, and know where you're likely to be.  For the same reason, dialing the engines back from "haulin' donkey" to "just not drifting" is probably also a good idea.

Scout26

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2017, 06:50:20 AM »
Except that I'm pretty sure "tell somebody with the resources to come get us if we are sinking that we've hit something" is pretty high on the priority list; you want that message to go out as early as possible so they can at least prep the resources, know where you are, and know where you're likely to be.  For the same reason, dialing the engines back from "haulin' donkey" to "just not drifting" is probably also a good idea.

And your merchantmarine and Naval experience, especially in command of a ship, is what again?  I'll take Dogmush's word for it, given that he just, you know, commands an ocean going vessel... ;/ ;/ ;/

And the other thing they were doing after the collision was trying to not run into anything else. out there.  (Look at the track with all the other little triangles in it.  That's a major port with lots and lots and lots of traffic along with fishing vessels out running around out there.

 
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Jamisjockey

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2017, 07:13:25 AM »
Except that I'm pretty sure "tell somebody with the resources to come get us if we are sinking that we've hit something" is pretty high on the priority list; you want that message to go out as early as possible so they can at least prep the resources, know where you are, and know where you're likely to be.  For the same reason, dialing the engines back from "haulin' donkey" to "just not drifting" is probably also a good idea.

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2017, 09:28:15 AM »
And the other thing they were doing after the collision was trying to not run into anything else. out there.  (Look at the track with all the other little triangles in it.  That's a major port with lots and lots and lots of traffic along with fishing vessels out running around out there.

Below is traffic in the area as I post this, 2220 (Japan local) 20JUN17. The waypoint marker (purple bubble below Shimoda) is at the coordinates given on AJ Dual's image. I don't know the exact coordinates of the collision, which may be somewhere else within the image.


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Fly320s

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2017, 10:59:29 AM »
I've played that game on the ipad.
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TechMan

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2017, 01:01:21 PM »
I've played that game on the ipad.

So have I...
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2017, 01:04:46 PM »
Below is traffic in the area as I post this, 2220 (Japan local) 20JUN17. The waypoint marker (purple bubble below Shimoda) is at the coordinates given on AJ Dual's image. I don't know the exact coordinates of the collision, which may be somewhere else within the image.




Been there, done that, literally. The transit in and out of Yokosuka was a pain in the ass because of all the traffic in 1985, my guess is that it has gotten some worse since then.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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dogmush

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2017, 01:24:25 PM »
Been there, done that, literally. The transit in and out of Yokosuka was a pain in the ass because of all the traffic in 1985, my guess is that it has gotten some worse since then.

It's pretty bad.  I was in and out of Yokohama North Dock several times in 2012-2013.  Super crowded, and kinda random traffic schemes.

Hawkmoon

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2017, 02:13:56 PM »
That Marine Traffic web site is interesting. Zoom out a bit and it makes the oceans look rather crowded.

So how do you pick one ship and show a track for it?
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Ben

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Re: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2017, 02:20:58 PM »
That Marine Traffic web site is interesting. Zoom out a bit and it makes the oceans look rather crowded.

So how do you pick one ship and show a track for it?

Left click.
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