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USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter
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June 28, 2017, 06:01:54 PM *
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Author Topic: USS Fitzgerald struck by Phillipine freighter  (Read 2174 times)
freakazoid
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« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2017, 09:31:55 AM »

Wiki article says that it was the CO that was injured, and apparently helo'd off. Makes since. In the damage picture, that big smashed in section below the grey octagon where you can aslo see into the ship is Array Room 1, or is it 2 I get those switched sometimes, and also the Captains Stateroom.
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Fly320s
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« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2017, 11:11:48 AM »

and also the Captains Stateroom.

So, possible assassination.  Anyone know where Hillary is?
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PEfarmer
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« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2017, 06:41:43 PM »

Just read a report from 7th fleet that a number of the missing were found dead today in the flooded berthing spaces. Not surprising, but horrible nonetheless.
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RoadKingLarry
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« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2017, 07:24:46 PM »

Latest reports say all 7 "missing" were found dead in the berthing area.

*expletive deleted*it.

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« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2017, 12:45:23 AM »

Latest reports say all 7 "missing" were found dead in the berthing area.

*expletive deleted*it.

Not like they really had any chance of being found if they'd gone overboard and not turned up yet.  Wasn't enough floating debris for anyone to hang on to, and you can only tread water for so long.

At least this way the families have bodies to bury, for whatever closure that brings them.
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230RN
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« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2017, 01:24:30 AM »


Sorry about the losses of the men. Sad  I'm glad they found them.

But naturally, I got curious about the turning radii of container ships.

Ain't as simple as I thought.

http://shipsbusiness.com/turning-circle.html

Surprising:  It depends on the direction of rotation of the prop.  It also depends on the depth of water.  Also: In some conditions throwing the rudder over to make a port turn results in an initial starboard turn:



Who'da thunk it?

Not so surprising:  It also depends on ballasting, wind, etc.

I guess nowadays they've got steerable props and fore and aft jets to help maneuverability.

I also guess I'll never be a ship's Master.  Too complicated.

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 02:01:56 AM by 230RN » Logged

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dogmush
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« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2017, 02:36:33 AM »

Some ships have azmithing props for and aft, but very few container ships.  That's a new and expensive tech.  You normally see it on Cruise Ships or tractor tugs.  Bow thrusters are pretty common, stern thrusters less so.  But bow and stern thrusters have their own engines, and we don't leave them running all the time.  They are for low speed maneuvering.  So no help in a panic turn like this.  The Crystal is a single screw ship.  She's got her engine, and her rudder.

Most military ships are multiple shaft, which adds maneuverability because you can reverse the shafts on one side of the vessel while also hitting the rudders.  Makes for a lot of stress on the engines, but quick turns.  It's possible that the Fitzgerald had variable pitch props.  That's becoming pretty common on Navy ships.  That makes for a super quick response time, because you don't have to spool the engines down and up, and wait for the shaft brakes to stop the shaft.

You also have to remember that a ship is basically rear steer.  If you put the rudders hard to starboard, what actually happens is the stern gets shoved to port.  Something to remember in collision avoidance maneuvers.
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jamisjockey
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« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2017, 04:52:26 AM »

Many freighters being run in other parts of the world are old and aren't going to have things like bow thrusters.

Fishing or boating around large vessels you see real quick just how large a freighter is.  That's a lot of kinetic energy to maneuver in the water.
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AmbulanceDriver
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« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2017, 05:36:30 AM »

Many freighters being run in other parts of the world are old and aren't going to have things like bow thrusters.

Fishing or boating around large vessels you see real quick just how large a freighter is.  That's a lot of kinetic energy to maneuver in the water.

Saw one article that mentioned the container ship was 29,000 tons vs. the destroyer at 10,000 tons. Add in the propulsion differences and the fact that a container ship is just one giant sail for any kind of lateral wind, and yeah, the maneuverability difference is rather significant.
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Warren
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« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2017, 10:20:29 AM »

Many freighters being run in other parts of the world are old and aren't going to have things like bow thrusters.



And like I said upthread how good was the crew of the bigger ship?

I don't want to see this pinned on Americans when there are potentially sub-standard foreigners who can take the hit.
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Hawkmoon
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« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2017, 10:51:12 AM »

Looks like there will be multiple investigations.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/18/world/asia/navy-uss-fitzgerald-japan.html

Quote
Admiral Aucoin said he was ordering an investigation by the Navys Judge Advocate General, which would be led by a flag officer. The United States Coast Guard would conduct its own inquiry, he said, and the Navy would cooperate with inquiries by the Japanese authorities.

How does the United States Coast Guard have any jurisdiction over a Navy vessel operating in another country's territorial waters?
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230RN
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« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2017, 10:55:06 AM »

The Coast Guard may have coastal and "congested waters" navigation and legal maritime rules of the road expertise as well as ship handling characteristics, regardless of jurisdiction.  Sort of like an expert consultant or private detective.

I reckon.

That's why I was so surprised at how complex "turning a ship" is, as noted above.  It ain't like swiveling the Evinrude clamped on the back of your bass boat to make a turn.

Terry, 230RN, Master of couch handling in all waters and weathers.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 11:07:44 AM by 230RN » Logged

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dm1333
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« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2017, 11:42:08 AM »

Looks like there will be multiple investigations.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/18/world/asia/navy-uss-fitzgerald-japan.html

How does the United States Coast Guard have any jurisdiction over a Navy vessel operating in another country's territorial waters?

Marine Safety is one of the Coast Guards 11 statutory missions.
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dogmush
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« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2017, 11:55:09 AM »

Marine Safety is one of the Coast Guards 11 statutory missions.

And they have jurisdiction over all american flagged ships, anywhere in the world
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Chris
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« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2017, 05:04:44 PM »

Just read the list of the deceased.  Sad.  All pretty young...
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freakazoid
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« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2017, 05:49:46 PM »

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/17/us/missing-sailors-found/index.html
- Gunner's Mate Seaman Dakota Kyle Rigsby, 19, from Palmyra, Virginia

- Yeoman 3rd Class Shingo Alexander Douglass, 25, from San Diego

- Sonar Technician 3rd Class Ngoc T Truong Huynh, 25, from Oakville, Connecticut

- Gunner's Mate 2nd Class Noe Hernandez, 26, from Weslaco, Texas

- Fire Controlman 2nd Class Carlosvictor Ganzon Sibayan, 23, from Chula Vista, California

- Personnel Specialist 1st Class Xavier Alec Martin, 24, from Halethorpe, Maryland

- Fire Controlman 1st Class Gary Leo Rehm Jr., 37, from Elyria, Ohio
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"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

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jamisjockey
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« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2017, 03:41:46 AM »

And like I said upthread how good was the crew of the bigger ship?

I don't want to see this pinned on Americans when there are potentially sub-standard foreigners who can take the hit.

The damage on the Fitz is on her right side. 
As a general rule, you give way to the vessel to your right.
And, as a general rule, the more maneuverable vessel gives way. 

My gut says we dun *expletive deleted*ed up.
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Fly320s
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« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2017, 05:20:14 AM »

The damage on the Fitz is on her right side. 
As a general rule, you give way to the vessel to your right.
And, as a general rule, the more maneuverable vessel gives way. 

My gut says we dun *expletive deleted*ed up.

But, we got the guns!
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Hawkmoon
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« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2017, 06:14:40 AM »

More proof that heavy and slow beats fast and light.
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Ben
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« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2017, 06:17:52 AM »


My gut says we dun *expletive deleted*ed up.

It's almost sounding like the best case scenario is "avoidable accident" and not "warship vs lighthouse".
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230RN
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« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2017, 06:26:10 AM »

The damage on the Fitz is on her right side.  
As a general rule, you give way to the vessel to your right.
And, as a general rule, the more maneuverable vessel gives way.  

My gut says we dun *expletive deleted*ed up.

I'm drifting that way, too.

If that's the way the various inquiries turn out, I hope we have the balls to stand up and admit it honestly.

But it will probably take a year for all the investigations to finish up.

ETA: I just realized that "drifting" might be considered a pun.  Not so.  Serious matter.

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Chris
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« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2017, 07:10:33 AM »

I'm drifting that way, too.

If that's the way the various inquiries turn out, I hope we have the balls to stand up and admit it honestly.

But it will probably take a year for all the investigations to finish up.

ETA: I just realized that "drifting" might be considered a pun.  Not so.  Serious matter.



No pun taken.

I'm wondering who is going to take hits, and how so.  I'm thinking the Officer of the Deck and maybe the CO need to polish their resumes.  Career as SWOs are done.  The real question is if there may be criminal charges brought, or if the Navy will let this end with resignations of commissions and/or retirements.  Negligence + deaths often ends up with manslaughter charges.  Mad Dog will weigh in on that decision, which means POTUS will have a say as well...
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Hawkmoon
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« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2017, 07:49:19 AM »

CO was asleep, and new to the ship, which makes it seem a bit unfair to hold him accountable but "the buck stops here" applies. The commanding officer is always ultimately responsible for anything that happens on/to his ship. You really have to wonder what the people on the bridge were doing and thinking. It's dangerous to guess, but I'll take a try and guess that they didn't want to change course to go astern of the freighter so they tried to scoot by in front -- and didn't quite make it. Like all those videos on Youtube of people in cars who thought they could beat a train at a rail crossing ...
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dogmush
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« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2017, 08:02:53 AM »

CO was asleep, and new to the ship, which makes it seem a bit unfair to hold him accountable but "the buck stops here" applies. The commanding officer is always ultimately responsible for anything that happens on/to his ship. You really have to wonder what the people on the bridge were doing and thinking. It's dangerous to guess, but I'll take a try and guess that they didn't want to change course to go astern of the freighter so they tried to scoot by in front -- and didn't quite make it. Like all those videos on Youtube of people in cars who thought they could beat a train at a rail crossing ...

People don't tend to try and cowboy with ships even Naval Officers.  Maybe especially Naval Officers.

As silly as it sounds I'd bet quite a bit that they didn't see each other.  That's how these investigation overwhelmingly turn out.  There were quite a bit of other lights on the horizon, and in the area.  There was brightly lit up land behind at least one of them.  It's a lot harder than you think to judge distance at night, and it's sometimes pretty difficult to make out what light goes to what ship.  That's why they make us practice quite a bit.  I routinely, while underway, will point out a set of lights to my watchstander, tell them it's a ship XXX feet long, and ask how far away it is.  Then we'll go look at the RADAR.  Most are off by a mile or two at night.

As far as electronic aids, it could be as simple as having a RADAR in True Motion mode instead of Relative Motion mode. Or they ran the collision avoidance solution, liked the answer, and the other ship turned or changed speed.  Or someone just got locked into another target on the other side of the vessel and forgot to check 360.  It's stupid in hindsight, but happens.  Actual RADARs are less cut and dry than you'd think.  there's a lot of dots, some are boats, some aren't.  Some can be tracked automatically, some need to be tracked old fashioned way.  I still drill my watch officers on how to do grease pencil plots directly on the screen and get collision avoidance solutions.

Someone (or several someone's) got careless and complacent but I'd be pretty shocked if they made a choice to play chicken.  That's what idiot fisherman do, not watch officers on large ships. 
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« Reply #49 on: June 19, 2017, 08:15:45 AM »

CO was asleep, and new to the ship, which makes it seem a bit unfair to hold him accountable but "the buck stops here" applies. The commanding officer is always ultimately responsible for anything that happens on/to his ship. You really have to wonder what the people on the bridge were doing and thinking. It's dangerous to guess, but I'll take a try and guess that they didn't want to change course to go astern of the freighter so they tried to scoot by in front -- and didn't quite make it. Like all those videos on Youtube of people in cars who thought they could beat a train at a rail crossing ...

Actually from the NY Times article that you posted, the Captain was the XO on the USS Fitzgerald from 11/2015 to 3/17 when he took over as Captain.  Because of that I think it is fair to hold him accountable.
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