Author Topic: Muslim members - or members who have a close understanding of Muslim culture...  (Read 8115 times)

Werewolf

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Werewolf,
You obviously have an agenda and are more interested in pushing it than in either learning anything or debating.
Have a nice day.
Answer the question Rabbi.

What are the reasons for the food taboos of the semitic religions.

I, and I am sure others, really want to know.

Here's your chance to put up or shut up!

Sure.
In Judaism we have explicit verses in the Torah that forbid eating certain items.    That is their origin.
In Islam, I assume, they have explicit verses in the Koran forbidding certain items.  That is the origin for those prohibitions.
Satisfied?
No...
I'll be more specific. What is the origin of the verses? Why are they there? Someone wrote them and made them a part of Judaism. Why?

Just because GOD said so? If that is the case then I can respect that and end of discussion.

OTOH I've talked to a number of Rabbis in my younger years and they invariably could explain in some detail the origin and why of just about anything in the Torah. None has ever said just because GOD said so. I was unaware of the type of restrictions you describe that have no rational reason so I most assuredly didn't ask the right questions. Some things are just taken on faith - I have a hard time though believing that food taboos are one.
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The Rabbi

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As explained in detail in previous posts: they are verses in the Torah.  By definition they have no reason.  If they had a reason they would not be in the category of chok.  The "rabbis" you spoke with likely had no idea.
If you reject the idea that G-d wrote the Torah and it was written by men then you are left asking the questions you are asking.  And you won't find any answers because there arent any.  Sheep and goats are also filled with pests.  Goats eat all kinds of junk.  And yet they are both kosher.  Certain kinds of locusts are kosher and some arent.  Why?  I dont know.  No one does.  Pig's milk isn't kosher because it comes from pigs, which arent kosher.  But honey is kosher, even though it comes from bees, which are not kosher.  Does that make sense?  No, of course not.
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Oleg Volk

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[coughcoughbullsh*tcoughcough]

Real fine start on polite debating...sheesh.

Antibubba

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Those who know me would not call me a terribly observant Jew.  Nonetheless, I don't eat pork.  I mean, in light of scientific knowledge I could simply explain the avoidance on medical or scientific grounds.  But I don't.  The reason I don't eat pork is because I am a Jew.

That might seem like circular reasoning to you.  So be it. 

The Jews throughout the centuries have been known for our love of studying and our love of laughter, especially irony.  Study Torah long enough, and you'll realize that some of it makes absolutely no sense at all (not that this has stopped entire bookshelves from being written about the "reasoning" behind it).

I know it will inflame some of you, but the truth about my religion (and yours too, but I know that most Christians cannot tolerate irony and humor mixed with their beliefs) is that it doesn't have to make perfect sense.  It is not rational.  It does not have to be rational or explainable.  That is why, for me, there is no conflict between religious belief and modern scientific knowledge: they are different realms.

As for the original Pork question, I can't speak on Islam, but while the laws of kashrut are important, they are certainly of lower urgency than other laws.  A starving man would not be prohibited from eating pork, because maintaining a life outweighs dietary restrictions.  A paramedic who is needed on Shabbos to save a life shouldn't even hesitate to work that day-saving lives is much more important than observing Shabbos.  I remember reading a story about a deeply religious Jew who needed a new heart valve.  When he was told by the doctor that he could choose between a plastic valve and one removed from a pig's heart, he asked his doctor which was the better choice.  He was told "pig".  The man agreed to it without hesitation.  He understood his priorities, and where his duty to G-d lay.

I hope Islam is like that too.
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The Rabbi

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Nice post.  Really spot on.  Thanks.
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mfree

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One should not vilify someone for not wishing to debate when they themselves are pushing a point that is by definition undebatable (chok).

I do now understand why you have such a problem with the way I view how such prohibitions came about and I understand your point and why you believe in it.

It doesn't mean I have to like you, The Rabbi, it just means we are on as common footing as we can get.

Perd Hapley

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Removed by poster. 

I thought it would be taken as harmless satire.  I also though it was clever.  Sorry.

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AJ Dual

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APS really, really, really, needs the "popcorn smilely"...

:popcorn:
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grampster

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I think muslin is a very proper material to use for window dressing.
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Guest

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Actually, researchers have long recognized pronounced health problems related to pork deficiency. 

1.  In about fifty percent of the sample, children born to pork-deficient parents had long, hooked noses and males had a lack of "foreskin." 

2.  Pork deficiency tends to produce a desire to take over the world.  So far, three forms of this trait are recognized.  The most common are attempts to control the world through banking schemes or by selling oil at high prices.  In extreme cases, the pork-deficient will turn to suicide bombing. 

3.  In about half of documented cases of pork deficiency, the subjects developed a taste for the blood of Christian children. 

4.  Parsimoniousness

5.  Polygamy

6.  Pork-deficient women tend to be very close to their children, often trying to control their lives well into the child's adulthood.  The use of "guilt trips" is a common tactic. 

Hope you were amused.   

Oddly, no.

It did serve to remind me why I rarely bother to post here anymore. The conversations have gone from polite and interesting discussion and debate to drivel and ego vomit.

Perd Hapley

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Sad, but at least you're living up to your signature line now.   cool
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Guest

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Actually, I'm trying to figure out why Blackburn was banned but you're still here.

Ron

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It did serve to remind me why I rarely bother to post here anymore. The conversations have gone from polite and interesting discussion and debate to drivel and ego vomit.

Must be the threads in which you choose to participate.

Here is a clue: if you think the subject of a thread title might involve postings on a subject that you have passionate feelings about, avoid it.

I can bitch about the anti Illinois/Chicago BS on THR or I can avoid the threads.

I can bitch about the attacks on religion/Christianity in some threads or I have two choices, defend my position or skip the thread.

There is something to be said about a place where everyone doesn't  have to walk on eggshells.

Like you I think the "pork" joke was insensitive and stupid. I think the point of it was to mock stereotypes, it just does it poorly.

Unlike you I don't have a chip on my shoulder, when I read stupid stuff I don't diss the whole forum board.

I only say this because I am noticing a theme, you pop in, participate, then point out this forum is filled with a bunch of (this that or the other) then stop posting for a while.



Antibubba

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Actually Barbara, I found it a little amusing.  Unrelated to the topic and irrelevent, agreed.
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Guest

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Actually, I posted here all the time until Fistful made every thread his own private sandbox to pee in. He's now gotten to the point where he doesn't even pretend to present a discussion..he just runs through and snipes and snivels and insults people left and right.

You have the option of not reading my posts, as well, if you find them so troubling, but I'll save you the trouble. I'll delete my account. It's not useful anymore anyway.

Which is kind of sad, considering this used to be one of my favorite places on the net, simply because of the caliber of people involved.

Ron

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You have the option of not reading my posts, as well, if you find them so troubling, but I'll save you the trouble. I'll delete my account. It's not useful anymore anyway.

That is your prerogative of course and the place will be less because of it. Personally I've enjoyed your contributions to the threads in the past.

As I said, it seems like the last few times you have taken a swipe at all of us when it seems that your problem is just with some of the posters here.

There was a thread just recently about how boring this place had become. My suggestion was for that person to start some threads that would reverse the trend.

I'm not one of those sycophants that is going to beg you to hang around. Don't take anything I have to say as a personal attack on you. It was just an observation about what you have had to say about "us".

Perd Hapley

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Actually, I'm trying to figure out why Blackburn was banned but you're still here.

If it makes Barbara or anyone else feel better, I was taken to task by the Preacherman for talking too much.  I have mended my ways, or at least thought I had.  I don't recall being notified previously that on-topic satirical posts were unwelcome here.  Nor can I understand why some jokes about Jewish and Muslim stereotypes would be over the line.  Not when literal-minded Christians are treated as scientific Luddites and would-be totalitarians.  Not when Republicans are so frequently labelled as fascists (that may be on THR and not here, but the point stands). 

While I freely admit to posting very frequently, the charge that I am sniveling or insulting everyone still baffles me.  I continue to beg for some examples of what I am doing wrong, other than posting a lot.  My previous posts can be found here:

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?action=profile;u=415;sa=showPosts
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cosine

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I think muslin is a very proper material to use for window dressing.

Funny you would mention that. I've had encounters with people who didn't know the difference the Muslims, those people that follow the religion of Islam, and muslin, the type of fabric.
Andy

Vodka7

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Well, fistful and I disagree on just about every topic we've ever both posted on, but I have to say I for one thought he was doing a lot better lately.  You even had a good chance of clicking five threads at random and fistful only being in one, instead of four of them Tongue

And right around the time I got to "hook nose" in his post, I said "man, someone is going to have a serious problem with this post.  But something tells me it's not going to be a Jew (or a Muslim.)"  And so far, that's been right.

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Funny you would mention that. I've had encounters with people who didn't know the difference the Muslims, those people that follow the religion of Islam, and muslin, the type of fabric.

For that matter, I once had a girlfriend who did not believe there was a difference between "gentile" and "genteel" and did not appreciate me dragging out a dictionary and lecturing at length Tongue  And another one who didn't know there was a difference between a Muslim and a member of the Nation of Islam...

Perd Hapley

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And another one who didn't know there was a difference between a Muslim and a member of the Nation of Islam...
That's OK.  The Nation of Islam doesn't recognize the distinction, either.  Smiley

If there's going to be any more discussion of yours truly, maybe it should be expressed on a different thread. 
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Werewolf

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Maybe we should just have a "Who annoys you the most on APS" thread and get it all out of our system.  shocked

I have no doubt that my moniker would show up more than once and with one exception I think it would be interesting to see who among us is annoyed the most by the others among us.

Or would that be too Low Road?  undecided
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Ron

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Maybe we should just have a "Who annoys you the most on APS" thread and get it all out of our system.

I don't see much of a problem myself. Like Fistful pointed out he was taken to task by a mod for his frenetic frivolous posting and he backed down.

There seems to be a core group of folks here who are not all on the same page but seem to be able to get along without constant bickering.

Just because every politically incorrect post isn't addressed doesn't mean everyone here signs off on the sentiment.
 
Is there a problem I'm not seeing?

Perd Hapley

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he was taken to task by a mod for his frenetic frivolous posting and he backed down.
I need to back down some more.  Anyone can feel free to PM me if they think I'm posting frivolously or am making inappropriate comments.  I DO bite, but you can't really feel it over an internet connection.

Glad to see my idea for a new thread was such a success. 
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Antibubba

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Maybe we should just have a "Who annoys you the most on APS" thread and get it all out of our system. 
 


I think the problem is is that EVERY THREAD is turning into a "Who annoys you the most on APS" thread.

Maybe familiarity DOES breed contempt.

And if nobody else will say so, I will:  Barbara, don't stay away too long.  You're one of my favorite members.   sad
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Stand_watie

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Actually, researchers have long recognized pronounced health problems related to pork deficiency. 

1.  In about fifty percent of the sample, children born to pork-deficient parents had long, hooked noses and males had a lack of "foreskin." 

2.  Pork deficiency tends to produce a desire to take over the world.  So far, three forms of this trait are recognized.  The most common are attempts to control the world through banking schemes or by selling oil at high prices.  In extreme cases, the pork-deficient will turn to suicide bombing. 

3.  In about half of documented cases of pork deficiency, the subjects developed a taste for the blood of Christian children. 

4.  Parsimoniousness

5.  Polygamy

6.  Pork-deficient women tend to be very close to their children, often trying to control their lives well into the child's adulthood.  The use of "guilt trips" is a common tactic. 

Hope you were amused.   

Oddly, no.

It did serve to remind me why I rarely bother to post here anymore. The conversations have gone from polite and interesting discussion and debate to drivel and ego vomit.

If you really feel that way about the entirety of, or even the majority of the discussions on the forum, then I don't think this is the place for you at all. You might consider only going to message boards that have very restrictive topic requirements (ie "Fordstraightsixxeswithchromeplatedmufflerbearingsandnothingnotnothingnotnothingelsewhatsoeverorelse.com")


OTOH, if you're reacting to specific members of the forum, you might consider narrowing down your remarks a bit.

So far you've mentioned 'fistful' by name. While I've been mildly abraded myself by fistful's posts a few times (more his delivery than his content as ideologically I don't think we're that far apart [and by "abraded, I don't mean 'report him to moderator' or 'post angry reply', but rather 'mentally roll my eyes' and move on]), I'm well aware that I probably do the same thing to many forum members, who have all been kind and forbearing enough (so far) to (to my knowledge) either ignore me or challenge my views by posting contrary opinions/facts. That said, if your gripe is genuinely with "drivel", I post scads and oodles of "drivel". 99.99999% of the world's conversation is "drivel".  It's a catch-all message board. I believe the vast majority of regular posters here (including yourself) are well-above-average people in terms of intelligence, decency and love for others, but most of us, it seems to me, like to talk about baloney as well as about weighty topics. If that's not your bag, I wish well on other forums.


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