Author Topic: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents  (Read 12114 times)

MillCreek

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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2017, 10:09:56 AM »
I wonder if it is less "support" and more "don't give a *expletive deleted*it"?
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TommyGunn

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Re: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2017, 10:15:31 AM »
http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/support-for-gay-marriage-surges-even-among-groups-once-wary/?utm_source=RSS&utm_medium=Referral&utm_campaign=RSS_all

More and more of American society thinks gay marriage is fabulous.  Even Republicans.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2017, 10:17:13 AM »
I'm curious to know what questions were asked. I'm guessing it's more a matter of people not wanting to re-litigate the issue, rather than actually being more in favor of it. As usual, the media confuses the issue of whether people "support" it, or favor it; with the issue of whether they want government to do something about it.

Also, the media is spending more time on other matters, so no one's paying attention to the fact that the aftermath of the SCOTUS decision has resulted in restricting Americans' rights, rather than actually allowing or granting rights to anyone.
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MillCreek

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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2017, 11:11:31 AM »
Death by a thousand cuts.

This is the natural and expected result of a couple of generations of massive indoctrination by the media and the public education system, combined with a lessening of the influence of mainstream religions on how people think. The Bible still says what it says, but both Roman Catholic and mainstream Protestant churches are closing all around the country because people just aren't going to church any more. The younger generations have been brainwashed to give precedence to various alleged "rights" that aren't defined in the Constitution over the Constitutionally guaranteed rights of freedom of religion and freedom of association.

Lastly, I think even people who still oppose same-sex "marriage" on religious grounds are just tired of hearing about it, and wish it (the discussion) would go away.
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Ben

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Re: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2017, 11:20:38 AM »
I wonder if it is less "support" and more "don't give a *expletive deleted*it"?

Kinda where I am. Other than I don't like people telling me I have to bake them a cake*. Bake your own damn cake and leave me the hell alone.


* Including the metaphorical cake. I'd give less of a crap if gays and every other "protected group" was satisfied with equal rights, not superior rights and "gimmes".
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MillCreek

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Re: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2017, 12:12:13 PM »
Looking at the detailed tables, I see that most everyone in my particular demographic is in favor, so I am with the majority:

Male
White
50-64 age
Postgrad education
Over $75K income
Mainline Protestant
West Coast
Married
Independent political affiliation
Baby boomer
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2017, 01:17:22 PM »
Looking at the detailed tables, I see that most everyone in my particular demographic is in favor, so I am with the majority:

Male
White
50-64 age
Postgrad education
Over $75K income
Mainline Protestant


Chek ur privlidge
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White Horseradish

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Re: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2017, 01:22:56 PM »
So, people are noticing that the sky hasn't fallen once they allowed it?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2017, 01:40:04 PM »
So, people are noticing that the sky hasn't fallen once they allowed it?


They're not noticing that free association rights, private property, religious liberty, etc, have been curtailed, while helping no one. Well, except for the various wedding-focused industries.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2017, 02:22:12 PM »
I'm curious to know what questions were asked. I'm guessing it's more a matter of people not wanting to re-litigate the issue, rather than actually being more in favor of it. As usual, the media confuses the issue of whether people "support" it, or favor it; with the issue of whether they want government to do something about it.

Also, the media is spending more time on other matters, so no one's paying attention to the fact that the aftermath of the SCOTUS decision has resulted in restricting Americans' rights, rather than actually allowing or granting rights to anyone.

This... always this.

For the sake of argument, the percentage of the population that is gay/lesbian is around 3%. That's roughly 9,642,000 out of 321,400,000 people in the U.S.

Now take out of that the percentage of them who actually want to get married. And consider that a percentage of those in certain states before the SCOTUS decision already were married. Probably places that already had a higher per-capita gay population, meaning less of them in the states that didn't. And that most of those folks were probably living in a more-or-less "gay common-law marriage" scenario already.

The entire Gay Marriage debate, it really was a Phyrric battle of epic proportions. Both sides did themselves harm. The MSM/Left in it's zeal to normalize homosexuality, and in it's coastal/urban bubble gave a very very false impression, either an overt one or subconscious one, of just how large the gay population of the U.S. is. And that made it a "bigger problem" than it actually is/was, at least in terms of demographics or sheer numbers to those that were in opposition.

And in turn, their opposition made the gay marriage issue into a big club for the Left in the greater Culture War, and for the social/religious Right, they lost a  major war, instead of conceding on what could have been a small skirmish. And arguably, they lost those freedom of/freedom from association rights in the process because it became such a contentious all or nothing battle.

The whole thing was just another example of how people are artificially drawn into the political Left/Right dichotomy, and are all tricked into ignoring the other equally important Authoritarian/Libertarian one.

How the MSM leads us ALL around by the nose, even those of us who nominally think they dislike/distrust the MSM via emphasis of frequency in reporting and presentation is arguably a much much bigger issue than Gay Marriage ever was.
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makattak

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Re: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2017, 03:26:33 PM »
And in turn, their opposition made the gay marriage issue into a big club for the Left in the greater Culture War, and for the social/religious Right, they lost a  major war, instead of conceding on what could have been a small skirmish. And arguably, they lost those freedom of/freedom from association rights in the process because it became such a contentious all or nothing battle.

The whole thing was just another example of how people are artificially drawn into the political Left/Right dichotomy, and are all tricked into ignoring the other equally important Authoritarian/Libertarian one.

How the MSM leads us ALL around by the nose, even those of us who nominally think they dislike/distrust the MSM via emphasis of frequency in reporting and presentation is arguably a much much bigger issue than Gay Marriage ever was.

Right. If they'd have just surrendered earlier, we wouldn't have demanded further concessions!...

That fits perfectly with the left's normal operating principle. Just like on gun rights, no? If we'd just give them this LITTLE THING, that's all they want. Just a reasonable restriction. They won't come back next year and demand the rest of the stuff they want. Not the left. Nope.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2017, 04:36:04 PM »
Right. If they'd have just surrendered earlier, we wouldn't have demanded further concessions!...

That fits perfectly with the left's normal operating principle. Just like on gun rights, no? If we'd just give them this LITTLE THING, that's all they want. Just a reasonable restriction. They won't come back next year and demand the rest of the stuff they want. Not the left. Nope.

No, I was pointing out the exact opposite.

What we have NOW is the typical Leftist "Compromise". "We got what we want, you get nothing. Be glad we didn't take more..."  We have gay marriage, and no freedom of/from association, and by court case or law, the conservative Christian bakers have to make the gay wedding cake.

I'm arguing what we COULD have had was an actual compromise. They got the gay marriage, and we would have gotten the freedom of/from association and the conservative Christian bakers can't be forced or sued for not wanting to make the gay wedding cake.

Or... God forbid, a majority of this country actually stands up and attacks a social issue from the libertarian standpoint for once, and both gays and the religious Right attacked the notion that the government has any say in who can or can't get married through the issuance of a license for their own considered reasons. And then nobody has "marriage" to use as a club in the wider culture war.


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Ben

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Re: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2017, 04:56:52 PM »
Or... God forbid, a majority of this country actually stands up and attacks a social issue from the libertarian standpoint for once, and both gays and the religious Right attacked the notion that the government has any say in who can or can't get married through the issuance of a license for their own considered reasons. And then nobody has "marriage" to use as a club in the wider culture war.


Word.
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230RN

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Re: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2017, 06:46:42 PM »
From Hawkmoon:

Quote
This is the natural and expected result of a couple of generations of massive indoctrination by the media and the public education system, combined with a lessening of the influence of mainstream religions on how people think.

Counterbalance: As opposed to the two to five millenia of indoctrination by the religious institutions?

Me, personally?  I don't think it's any of my business what kind of relationship two people have, as long as they don't bug me about it.  And I was never sure it was anybody else's business, either.

AJ Dual remarked,

Quote
Both sides did themselves harm. The MSM/Left in its zeal to normalize homosexuality, and in its coastal/urban bubble gave a very very false impression, either an overt one or subconscious one, of just how large the gay population of the U.S. is. And that made it a "bigger problem" than it actually is/was, at least in terms of demographics or sheer numbers to those that were in opposition.

Ayup.  The zeal is the deal.  On both sides.

Terry
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 07:11:36 PM by 230RN »

Hawkmoon

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Re: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2017, 07:13:59 PM »

Counterbalance: As opposed to the two to five millenia of indoctrination by the religious institutions?

Me, personally?  I don't think it's any of my business what kind of relationship two people have, as long as they don't bug me about it.  And I was never sure it was anybody else's business, either.


That's where freedom of religion comes into play. You can call it "millenia [sic] of indoctrination by the religious institutions," but [most of those] those who believe in the Bible (Episcopalians excepted) don't need any "indoctrination." We can just open the book and read what it says.

I also don't care what kind of of relationship two people have. I DO care when they try to claim that a "union" between two people of the same sex is a marriage. And I DO care when they try to force people who DON'T believe it's a marriage to bake their effing cake.
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230RN

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Re: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2017, 07:17:29 PM »
"The zeal is the deal."  That concept kind of makes me wonder why Millcreek brought up this subject in the first place.  :laugh:

OK:  "Milennia."   =D

On everything else, I'm right. <Joke, friend.  Joke.  Joke.  Get it?

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Re: Re: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2017, 07:20:13 PM »
That's where freedom of religion comes into play. You can call it "millenia [sic] of indoctrination by the religious institutions," but [most of those] those who believe in the Bible (Episcopalians excepted) don't need any "indoctrination." We can just open the book and read what it says.

I also don't care what kind of of relationship two people have. I DO care when they try to claim that a "union" between two people of the same sex is a marriage. And I DO care when they try to force people who DON'T believe it's a marriage to bake their effing cake.
And if we can agree that you shouldn't have to bake their cake?

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2017, 08:16:04 PM »

Counterbalance: As opposed to the two to five millenia of indoctrination by the religious institutions?


That's not counterbalance; that's counter-logic. "The religious institutions" somehow communicated with each other for 5000 years, and agreed to all teach that marriage was heterosexual? That's conspiracy-mongering.

How about people just accept that marriage is heterosexual because it makes sense for it to be?
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White Horseradish

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Re: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2017, 06:09:53 PM »
I DO care when they try to claim that a "union" between two people of the same sex is a marriage.
I never quite figured out why that is in any way important. If a union of two drunk people in Las Vegas that lasts an hour and a half is a marriage, pretty much anything else can be a marriage.



And I DO care when they try to force people who DON'T believe it's a marriage to bake their effing cake.
I can see the point of allowing a choice.

On the other hand, I think making a choice to not bake that cake is stupid. Selling a cake to a couple of guys who are going to marry each other no more constitutes approval of what they do with it than selling a jar to some artsy type constitutes approval of Piss Christ.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Re: Support for gay marriage grows amongst former opponents
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2017, 06:29:32 PM »
And if we can agree that you shouldn't have to bake their cake?


Not sure. You still want me to call it a "marriage" even if I don't have to bake the cake? Sorry, no can do.

I've mentioned in previous discussions on this topic that I'm a justice of the peace. Four and half years ago, when I was sworn in for a new term, the instructions from the secretary of the state were that JPs who objected to marrying same-sex couples on moral/religious grounds could decline. Six months ago, when I was sworn in for the current term, the word from on high (consistent with the legal precedent established by that county clerk who refused to issue a marriage license) was that we may NOT decline to marry same-sex couples for moral/religious reasons.

My JP status is less important to me than my faith. So far, I have not been asked, so I haven't had to make a choice. Should the situation arise, I will have to resign my commission.
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lupinus

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Re:
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2017, 07:00:22 PM »
My point being you shouldn't have to bake their cake, heck you can refuse to call it marriage. But at the same time I gave up caring long ago about them actually getting married. Now I don't like it came from a court ruling, and I'd rather just see government out of marriage, but I couldn't care less about two folks getting married regardless of their orientation. Hell, I'm still trying to figure out why it it's limited to two people.

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Perd Hapley

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Re:
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2017, 07:06:12 PM »
I'm still trying to figure out why it it's limited to two people.

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lupinus

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Re: Re:
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2017, 10:09:24 PM »

It may not be for long.
Nor do I understand the rationalization for it not being so.

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