Author Topic: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size  (Read 10466 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #50 on: June 29, 2017, 06:46:06 PM »
More like selling a burger by its pre-cooked weight. Oh, wait, they do that.

Yes. Yes they do.
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cordex

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2017, 07:04:12 PM »
Except that generally, burgers aren't cooked to a precise weight, so only the precooked weight can be an accurate measure.  Nor is anyone really planning anything based on the weight of a burger patty, whereas the size of lumber is critical to properly building with it.
There are good reasons for the restaurant industry choosing to sell a burger by its precooked weight, just as there are good reasons the lumber industry sells a rough-sawn 2x4 that has been surfaced as a 2x4 even if is no longer 2x4. And why we still call a .38 a .38.

Reasons aside, in none of the above examples are the sellers attempting to defraud the end-user.

Sideways_8

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2017, 08:21:55 PM »
Except that generally, burgers aren't cooked to a precise weight, so only the precooked weight can be an accurate measure.  Nor is anyone really planning anything based on the weight of a burger patty, whereas the size of lumber is critical to properly building with it.

If the size is that critical, there's a thing a couple of aisles over called a tape measure. Or just change the design a bit to accommodate the whole half inch that's not there. Or do what Revdisk does and buy big and fit it. Or sue the stores instead of the lumber industry because one does not actually care about any of the above and is just looking for a payout.

Ben

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #53 on: June 29, 2017, 08:34:42 PM »
If the size is that critical, there's a thing a couple of aisles over called a tape measure.

You know what, because I just don't do plumbing enough to always remember what's OD and what's ID,  before I go to the plumbing aisle, I measure what I need at home, clip the damn tape measure to my pocket, drive to the store, then measure the part I'm gonna buy. Or even take the old part, or what the old part is supposed to fit into (if portable) with me and check fit in the store.

Personal responsibility. I'm not familiar enough with plumbing measurements so I doublecheck them. If someone isn't familiar with lumber and how lumber is measured, doublecheck the measurements.

Also why, even though I know my calibers, I still have calipers sitting on my reloading bench.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #54 on: June 29, 2017, 10:19:41 PM »
My house was built in 1959.  Imagine my surprise and delight in discovering that it was built with actual, by-G_d, 2x4's, 2x6's, and 2x8's.   =D =D =D =D

To be honest, I am mildly shocked. My house was built by (okay, "for") my parents in 1950. The wall framing sticks are 1-5/8 x 3-5/8. I haven't seen a real 2x4 in anything bult since about 1940 -- and those were rough-sawn.
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Jim147

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2017, 12:39:08 AM »

During World War II a number of companies, and even the government, had to produce written material aimed at women entering the work force to initiate them into terminology that might sound as if the men were behaving badly.

Petcock, nipple, stud, you name it.

Back when Mike was a young lady.  :rofl:
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KD5NRH

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #56 on: June 30, 2017, 12:08:27 PM »
Or just change the design a bit to accommodate the whole half inch that's not there.

Not always that easy, especially when dealing with a mix of dimensionally true stock (structural steel tubing) and lazy named stock.  With steel 2x4s, I can stack two and perfectly match a 4x4.  Two 2x2s exactly match a 2x4.  With wood "2x4s" stacking two gives a 3x3-1/2 which doesn't even match a wood "4x4."  When using a combination like a steel 2x6 outer frame with wood "2x6" inner joists, things end up having to be offset (or hope the steel vendor stocks something-by-5-1/2s which isn't always a good bet) so the flooring doesn't have half-inch waves in it.  Dealing with crews that are used to working with only one material or the other, it becomes a mess.

Quote
Or sue the stores instead of the lumber industry because one does not actually care about any of the above and is just looking for a payout.

How does one sue a non-entity like "the lumber industry?"  The retail stores are the only portion that most people would ever be able to deal directly with, and as such, the only part one might be found to have standing to sue.

KD5NRH

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #57 on: June 30, 2017, 12:12:07 PM »
There are good reasons for the restaurant industry choosing to sell a burger by its precooked weight,

Not the least of which is that they'd have to either list five weights or keep five pre-cook measures around to account for the different loss of weight between rare, medium-rare, medium, medium-well and well.  (And monitor the moisture content of the meat between lots, etc.)  Maybe McDonald's could give a consistent cooked weight since they have central distribution and don't give an option on how the patty is cooked, but the local diner likely does well to have someone on staff who can figure out tax on the burger.

MechAg94

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #58 on: June 30, 2017, 02:43:20 PM »
Maybe they could sue the power company if they don't have exactly 120VAC at the wall socket.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #59 on: June 30, 2017, 03:05:09 PM »
Has anyone checked their shotshells lately, to see if the dram equivalents are really equivalent?
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

MechAg94

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #60 on: June 30, 2017, 07:24:29 PM »
Sue ammo manufacturers if their measured velocities are not the same as that shown on the box.   =)
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

K Frame

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #61 on: June 30, 2017, 09:46:45 PM »
Back when Mike was a young lady.  :rofl:

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230RN

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2017, 07:58:35 AM »
^^,^^^,^^^^
:rofl:

I had to laugh when I saw the accuracy specs on an infra-red remote thermometer I bought recently:

Quote

Accuracy
+/- 2% above 32°F
+/- 4.5% below 32°F


Well, getting "technical" about it, and starting from no temperature at all, meaning absolute zero, that makes the freezing-point  tolerance +/- 9.2°F, for a total of 18.4°F altogether. And it gets worse with higher temperatures!  Hell, I want my money back or I'll sue, sue, sue!

And the below-freezing accuracy is even worse! Sue, sue, sue !

(But I'll listen to any out-of-court settlements.)

We all know what they mean, though,  don't we?

:) Terry

REF (Might be worthwhile to look at this):
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/term-of-art

K Frame

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Re:
« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2017, 04:01:37 PM »
New protest group...

Black Body Radiation Matters

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #64 on: July 12, 2019, 12:40:40 PM »

https://www.jsonline.com/story/money/business/retail/2017/10/06/lumber-lawsuit-against-menards-dismissed-judge-says-retailer-didnt-lie-its-4-x-4-s/739282001/

Judge threw it out a long time ago. Said it's industry standard, and they could have measured the lumber right there in the store. He didn't mention that they could have borrowed a tape from the tool department rack to do the measuring.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #65 on: July 12, 2019, 12:41:39 PM »
https://www.jsonline.com/story/money/business/retail/2017/10/06/lumber-lawsuit-against-menards-dismissed-judge-says-retailer-didnt-lie-its-4-x-4-s/739282001/

Judge threw it out a long time ago. Said it's industry standard, and they could have measured the lumber right there in the store. He didn't mention that they could have borrowed a tape from the tool department rack to do the measuring.

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brimic

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #66 on: July 12, 2019, 12:59:35 PM »
Good one on the judge!

Quote
As Turin described it, all three men in the lawsuits wanted the lumber for home-improvement projects, got home and measured the pieces, felt they had been deceived and then turned to the law firm.

I can guarantee that the only construction experience these men had was watching some sort of home makeover show on tv.
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bedlamite

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #67 on: July 12, 2019, 01:06:44 PM »
They should have hired the shed of doom builder, then the dimensions wouldn't have mattered so much
A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.
Is defenestration possible through the overton window?

Perd Hapley

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #68 on: July 12, 2019, 01:35:32 PM »
They should have hired the shed of doom builder, then the dimensions wouldn't have mattered so much

 =D
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2019, 02:16:48 PM »
It is an industry standard and has been since Jesus was an apprentice carpenter. Ive known it since I was about 12, family full of carpenters though.  Dimension lumber size is rough cut size and finished size is after planing.

I started working as an architect (actually as a draftsman, as I hadn't gotten my degree yet) in 1966. Back then a 2x4 was 1-5/8" x 3-5/8". Then, some time in the early to mid-1970s, the industry standard shifted to 1-1/2 x 3-1/2, and there it has stayed. But it's not as simple as subtracting a half inch from the nominal dimension to get the actual dimension. Oh, no ... that would be too easy.

"Boards" and pieces of wood with a nominal thickness of one inch or less. A "one by" whatever is 3/4 of an inch thick. But a nominal 1-1/4" board ("five quarter") isn't 1-1/4" thick. They used to be 1-1/8" but now they're 1-1/16" thick.

Framing lumber, 2" or greater nominal thickness, is called "dimension lumber." A 2x4 is 1-1/2 x 3-1/2. A 2x6 is 1-1/2 x 5-1/2. But ... beyond 2x6 it gets even worse. A 2x8 is 1-1/2 x 7-1/4, a 2x10 is 1-1/2 x 9-1/4, etc.

Back in the heyday of "soft metrication" I once suggested to a lumber industry rep that we should just adopt standard metric dimensions for dimension lumber. A 2x4 would become 40mm x 90mm, for example. My suggestion was met with horror. Oh, no! That would mess up all the detailing in the field, he said. Never mind that lumber that was surfaced when green shrinks at least an eighth, maybe a quarter of an inch when it dries, so mixing "S-green" lumber with air-dried lumber with kiln-dried lumber results in a real mish-mash.

And never mind that I saw first-hand the change from a 1-5/8 x 3-5/8 "2x4" to the smaller version. In metric dimensions, the 1-5/8 x 3-5/8 "2x4" was 41.28mm x 92.08mm. The newer 1-1/2 x 3-1/2 version is 38.1mm x 88.9mm. My suggestion was to make a 2x4 40mm x 90mm. The industry had already undergone the change from the n-5/8 sizes to the n-1/2 sizes. My proposal would have fallen between the two, so very little adjusting would be needed, and that would have been less than what the industry had absorbed without a whimper in the 1970s. But no -- it was not to be.

So we still have idiot buyers and idiot lawyers who sue because industry standard, commodity-grade lumber is being sold at (oh the horror!) industry standard dimensions.
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Ben

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2019, 05:35:52 PM »
Glad to see it got tossed. And that the judge used my comment a page back about personal responsibility and tape measures to make his decision.  =D
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lupinus

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #71 on: July 12, 2019, 06:29:43 PM »
Also I've noticed at least in Lowe's that in addition to 2x4 or what have you, they also list true dimensions.

Wait till they actually get further into a project and realize that the damned things probably aren't straight. Ah the joys of picking through a lumber pile.....

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Hawkmoon

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #72 on: July 12, 2019, 06:50:22 PM »
If they are straight at the store, by the time you bring them home and let them sit until next weekend, when you get around to using them ... they won't be.
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Ben

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #73 on: July 12, 2019, 07:21:11 PM »
If they are straight at the store, by the time you bring them home and let them sit until next weekend, when you get around to using them ... they won't be.

I hate that. I know about that. I nevertheless have six warped 2x4s and a warped sheet of plywood sitting in my shop right now.  ;/
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Home Depot, Menards Sued for "False" Lumber Size
« Reply #74 on: July 12, 2019, 09:41:11 PM »
I hate that. I know about that. I nevertheless have six warped 2x4s and a warped sheet of plywood sitting in my shop right now.  ;/

You mean you have six warped one-and-a-half by three-and-a-halfs, I'm sure.
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