The first two doses of Narcan are free, the third time, you die

[Ben]

The death penalty won't fix the problem.  Most of the problem is coming from legit doctors prescribing legit pain medicine. You're fighting human nature here the whole way. 

I only have the layman's perspective, but from what I've read and seen in the news and various articles, this certainly seems to be a big part of the problem. Doctors are getting people addicted because opiates are an easy path for both doctor and patient for things like chronic pain.

I've read some pretty interesting stuff (I think Millcreek may have even posted some here) that seemed to be backed by results, when doctors and patients take the harder path of lifestyle changes, dietary changes, and exercise. They are all non-medicinal treatments that require some work by the doctor and a lot of work and will power for the long haul by the patient, but seemed to provide better results in the long run than opiates.

[MillCreek]

I can say that the pendulum is swinging the other way in healthcare, and providers are generally going to be much more cautious in prescribing opiates, and especially for cases of chronic pain and for pain complaints without objective findings to support them.  

Based upon reports I have read from local law enforcement and the county health district, the majority of the younger (under age 40) heroin users here started off with heroin, and not prescription pain meds.  The Feds and the state licensing boards are really looking hard at prescription pain med prescribing, which further reduces the enthusiasm of the providers to write the scripts for them.

[just Warren]

Wanna sell a little pot and get caught?  As Cheech and Chong said...."Bailiff, wack his pee pee."  Get caught selling Heroin or any big time hard drug and get convicted?  Death penalty after the gavel comes down.  Not long ago we hung horse thieves.  Sell *expletive deleted*it that kills people, you need to go.

That will get a lot of cops killed.

People change their behavior based on incentives and if there is a chance of escaping a 100% chance of a death penalty by killing your way out of an arrest even if your chances of success are only 1% then a lot of, if not all, dealers are going to choose that option.

There's got to be people working on a way to "turn off" addictions through some sort of therapy. Eventually they'll hit the solution and discussions like this will be a thing of the past. 

[AJ Dual]

Is it even worth pointing out that it's only a matter of time before a GMO yeast strain that produces high quality opiates from sugar and water gets out of a lab and into the general public's hands?

[KD5NRH]

I'm sorry, but it occurs to me that Mr. Blankenship seems to have failed massively in the parenting role, and he is perhaps not the person I'm most likely to give credence to in this discussion.

I'm thinking he's at least as much a failure in his appeal to religion; if God wants someone to live or die today, He doesn't need the city's interference either way.

[Firethorn]

Is it even worth pointing out that it's only a matter of time before a GMO yeast strain that produces high quality opiates from sugar and water gets out of a lab and into the general public's hands?

If it wasn't for the drug war, we could provide a year's supply of opioids to an addict for like $200.  The stuff is seriously that cheap.

England controlled the heroin market for a while by simply prescribing the stuff to addicts.  Get addicted?  Go see the doctor, get a script, and the dealer can't make any money.  Broke dealers can't hand out enough free samples to generate new addicts then get enough money before they go to the doctor to break even.  Result is very few new addicts.  This was before methadone and such were developed, mind you.

[RevDisk]

Wanna sell a little pot and get caught?  As Cheech and Chong said...."Bailiff, wack his pee pee."  Get caught selling Heroin or any big time hard drug and get convicted?  Death penalty after the gavel comes down.  Not long ago we hung horse thieves.  Sell *expletive deleted*it that kills people, you need to go.

We already did so. Prohibition. US government directly murdered at least ten thousand people intentionally by poisoning industrial alcohol supplies while not telling anyone about it. We are doing so already. We're killing folks in drug organizations all day long. Sometimes users are well. We just aren't dumb enough to put it in writing. It didn't work. It's not working. It's hideously expensive.

So, it's an idea that has a very long established track record of failure with high expense. Oh, and gutting the fourth amendment like a fish in the process.

The process of "ignore demand, attack suppliers" ignores the fact that people are willing to make a gamble for vast sums of money.

All things I know but now it makes sense.  If an addict isn't sure of what they're getting they're possibly going to OD so they put themselves in a safe place (hospital) before they go through with it hoping to get revived.

A point that slipped my mind that BBC reminded me. The various formulations of fentanyl, carfentanil, etc WILDLY vary. The lowest end is 50x strength of morphine. Apparently 'average' is 600x strength of morphine. Some of the formulations of the stuff is up to 10,000x the strength of morphine and was generally used for incapacitating elephants for surgery.

Why carry 10,000 kilos of heroin that can easily be tested with a cheap field kit by any cop when you can carry one kilo of stuff that may not even be illegal and would take a very experienced lab to figure out?


Apparently same issue has occurred for prescription->heroin->fentanyl has occurred with synthetic cannabinoids. Head shops started selling synthetic cannabinoids because of weed being illegal. People flocked to it, because hey, stores are safer, cheaper and more reliable than drug dealers. Amounts were generally even and made by people with some clue what they were doing. "Spice" is the term used for a while before the government cracked down on it. So now you have all kinds of synthetic cannabinoids.

It's nearly impossible to OD on weed because your body will let you know unless you've rigged up some automated delivery system Basically, you'll start puking too much to consume more. The new synthetic cannabinoids generally avoid that. By accident or intention, not sure. Maybe "happy accident". Like fentanyl, they can change around some of the composition to avoid drug laws and are harder to identify in the field. The strength and effects are wildly variable between batches. Hence, more people die.

Hospitals and rehab places are finding it VERY hard to keep up with the changing drug formulations.

[Mannlicher]

I would prefer to see Narcan given on an ability to pay basis.  No insurance or ability to pay up front?  Sayonara.     Stupidity is supposed to hurt.

[Perd Hapley]

If someone is repeatedly killing themselves, don't you at some point rule them mentally incompetent, and institutionalize them? Not that that's a cheap solution, either, of course.

[cordex]

I would prefer to see Narcan given on an ability to pay basis.  No insurance or ability to pay up front?  Sayonara.     Stupidity is supposed to hurt.

Last time I saw Narcan given (and I believe this to be somewhat typical of the scenario) the recipient was unconscious and turning grey.  Not a whole lot of time to check for insurance cards or bank account balances.

[Fly320s]

Last time I saw Narcan given (and I believe this to be somewhat typical of the scenario) the recipient was unconscious and turning grey.  Not a whole lot of time to check for insurance cards or bank account balances.

I dom't see a problem here.

[RevDisk]

I would prefer to see Narcan given on an ability to pay basis.  No insurance or ability to pay up front?  Sayonara.     Stupidity is supposed to hurt.

Gonna ask cops to pay up when they're unconscious on the ground? I think people underestimate the strength of something that can be up to 10,000 times more powerful than morphine and able to soak through the skin.

Most folks with fentanyl OD cannot speak or move. Whether they have insurance or not, you wouldn't be able to tell.

[Perd Hapley]

So it seems like the whole, "legalize drugs, and all the stoners will kill themselves - problem solved" rhetoric turns out to be wrong?

[Ben]

So it seems like the whole, "legalize drugs, and all the stoners will kill themselves - problem solved" rhetoric turns out to be wrong?

Well, you have to find the people ODing in time to use the Narcan, so I would assume plenty of druggies would still die, especially from what I've read in this thread regarding the potencies of the new drugs. Because even if you legalized heroin, it sounds like there would still be a very viable black market for the more potent stuff, probably at a cheaper price than a "govt sanctioned" drug house.

I'm actually curious how this is all playing out in the Netherlands right now and how their per capita drug OD numbers compare to our current numbers.

[lee n. field]

So it seems like the whole, "legalize drugs, and all the stoners will kill themselves - problem solved" rhetoric turns out to be wrong?

"Legalize drugs, let them buy their house brand pound bag of morphine at the drug store."

[Mannlicher]

I dom't see a problem here.

I don't either.  Guy dies.  Problem, if any, solved

[Firethorn]

I'm actually curious how this is all playing out in the Netherlands right now and how their per capita drug OD numbers compare to our current numbers.

My first thought is that under a legal market most would be less likely to kill themselves because they would be able to control dosing.  Consistent quality and purity means that if they OD, it is because they used more.  Not got some that was doped to be more powerful than they were used to.

In which case, much more their own fault.

[Scout26]

My first thought is that under a legal market most would be less likely to kill themselves because they would be able to control dosing.  Consistent quality and purity means that if they OD, it is because they used more.  Not got some that was doped to be more powerful than they were used to.

In which case, much more their own fault.

And where do they get the money to buy the "House" brand ??

[cordex]

I dom't see a problem here.

Fair enough, but in that case you might as well not issue Narcan at all.

Gonna ask cops to pay up when they're unconscious on the ground?

Cops tend to have city, county, or federal health insurance as well as be covered for on the job injuries.  Plus if it came down to it you could just dock his pay.

[TechMan]

The sheriff of the county that the town (from OP) is located in, doesn't permit his deputies to carry Narcan.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2017/07/06/butler-county-sheriff-rick-jones-my-deputies-wont-use-narcan/457229001/

[cordex]

Forgot to mention, our local K9 handlers carry an extra dose of Narcan specifically for the dogs.  Cheap insurance for an expensive investment.

[MillCreek]

^^^So all that sheriff is doing is shifting the burden to Fire/EMS.  I liked how his excuse was the people revived are often violent and never happy to see the police.  I thought dealing with often violent and unhappy people is mentioned somewhere in the law enforcement job description.  My 93 pound nurses do this all the time, and I simply must send this article to them for a good laugh.

[Fly320s]

^^^So all that sheriff is doing is shifting the burden to Fire/EMS.  I liked how his excuse was the people revived are often violent and never happy to see the police.  I thought dealing with often violent and unhappy people is mentioned somewhere in the law enforcement job description.  My 93 pound nurses do this all the time, and I simply must send this article to them for a good laugh.

That is his public-side reasoning.  On the private side, he is saying "screw those druggies, let them die" at least that is my interpretation.

[Firethorn]

And where do they get the money to buy the "House" brand ??

To buy legal dope?

Where do they get the money for anything?

Under legalization the drugs can be stupidly cheap.  Lacking prohibition, excessive taxes and controls to raise the price, the cost could be as low as a couple hundred a year.  Without sin taxes, no more than a couple thousand.  Plenty spend more on smokes and drinks.

The trick is to get them into treatment before they ruin their lives, health or financial.

[Scout26]

To buy legal dope?

Where do they get the money for anything?

Under legalization the drugs can be stupidly cheap.  Lacking prohibition, excessive taxes and controls to raise the price, the cost could be as low as a couple hundred a year.  Without sin taxes, no more than a couple thousand.  Plenty spend more on smokes and drinks.

The trick is to get them into treatment before they ruin their lives, health or financial.

How about not doing it in the first place ??  That seems to be the most cost effective alternative for all involved.   Sorry, I think you should be free to ingest whatever you wish.  However, you then own it and it's not society's job or responsibility to save you from your poor decision making...



[waves at Microbalrog  ]