Author Topic: Lotta police dogs are going to retire soon  (Read 3908 times)

TommyGunn

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Re: Lotta police dogs are going to retire soon
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2017, 11:24:19 PM »
Because the dog could have alerted to a substance that's legal (marijuana), there could not be any legal justification for a search of the vehicle based on the alert. Therefore, ANYTHING found in the course of the search is fruit of a poisoned tree, and inadmissible as evidence. You are correct: There was no way for the officer to know what the dog was alerting on, and that's the entire point.

Think of it this way: We need a license to drive (legally). If we have a license, driving is legal. Police can't pick any car at random and stop it just to verify that the driver has a license, because there has been no indication of unlawful activity.

As I said, probable cause "went sideways."   As the OP said,  a lot of police dogs are getting early retirement in some places.
In the immortal words of Chester Riley; "what a revoltin' development this is!"  :angel:
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Hawkmoon

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Re: Lotta police dogs are going to retire soon
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2017, 12:11:54 AM »
It's only a revoltin' development if you like the concept that your car or house can be searched because a cop says his dog alerted to something. I've known some K-9 officers over the years. I liked the officers and I've seen their dogs do searches for people, and I'm all in favor of that. Bomb sniffing dogs in airports? Fine. Cadaver-sniffing dogs at disaster scenes? Carry on.

Tear my car apart on the side of a highway because you taught your dog to "alert" when it knows you want it to alert? Nope. Not acceptable.
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TommyGunn

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Re: Lotta police dogs are going to retire soon
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2017, 11:59:18 AM »
Hey, Hawkmoon, I'm AGREEING with you....

I've already stated more than once I misunderstood the facts in the OP story.  It just occurs to me that having spent bowcooo $$$$ training up however many drug sniffing dogs they did, to suddenly find that since maryjane is now legal, the whole legal rubric under which drug searches have been made being suddenly altered might be considered a "revoltin' development."  I was not trying to suggest that law enforcement ought not revise their methods and take this new legal fact into consideration, and adjust.  I'm sure it can be done.
I am not trying to suggest we should simply impose a police state. Really,  if that was a goal, why bother with sniffer dogs?    
EVERYONE gets searched.  PERIOD.  ALL the time.  EVERYWHERE.  AND anally probed as well.  No more $$$$$ for dogs, it can be done CHEAPLY.  And thoroughly.
And why bother with expensive trials, lawyers, and that pesky fifth amendment?
Just jail the bastiges.....
No, I do not want that.
I may not have any great and wondrous ideas for solving this nation's drug problems but I GET the Constitution and do not want it overturned.

It would be nice if I could erase my original post in this thread, though. =D :facepalm: ;)
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Hawkmoon

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Re: Lotta police dogs are going to retire soon
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2017, 08:38:24 PM »
Nah -- I think we're all on the same page.

Unless there are some who DON'T have a problem with drug-sniffing dogs taking a stroll around their cars on the side of the road. In my several decades of life, I have known a fair number of police officers. Almost all of them I think would be considered "good guys" on a personal level, but I'd estimate that well over half are (or were, some are now retired) probably shitheads as police officers. Hence my earlier comments as to what I think dogs should and should not be used for.
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Blakenzy

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Re: Lotta police dogs are going to retire soon
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2017, 09:29:12 AM »
A drug K9 handler told me just yesterday that "searching for drugs is not work for them(dogs), it's like a game" and citing past experiences "when they don't get to play anymore they get deppressed and get sick".

So retiring is not so good for them.

It's awesome to see them work though.
"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"

dogmush

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Re: Lotta police dogs are going to retire soon
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2017, 09:42:55 AM »
A drug K9 handler told me just yesterday that "searching for drugs is not work for them(dogs), it's like a game" and citing past experiences "when they don't get to play anymore they get deppressed and get sick".

So retiring is not so good for them.

It's awesome to see them work though.

So their handlers can buy [legal] weed and hide it around the house for the dogs.  Keeps the dogs happy, and out of our cars.

230RN

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Re: Lotta police dogs are going to retire soon
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2017, 10:49:49 AM »
My personal opinion is that no "probable cause" tests should be applied to the Fifth Fourth (oops) Amendment, articulable or not unless some hard evidence has been obtained by normal investigative work beforehand.

We are at the point where the "articulable" has been transferred to the behavior of an animal, rather than direct human observation.  And this does not even touch upon the problem with the relativistic term "probable."

Just like the relativistic term "reasonable."

I don't have a solution to the drug so-called "problem," except to suggest that we ought to stop the unwinnable war against "some drugs" and let Darwin do the prosecution and punishment.

However, back on topic, having bred, raised, and trained many pups and dogs (I had my own kennel registry with the AKC), some to field readiness, some to only the "green broke" level, I can say with some authority that dogs can be very aware of subtle cues even though the handler is unconscious of those cues.

What's interesting about this is that we credit dogs with the intelligence to react to conscious cues (such as reacting to the smell of pot --or, for that matter, firearms and explosive residues) --yet don't credit them with the intelligence to react to more subtle cues from the handlers which can result in false positives.

I know some of us can get very defensive about the adequacy of rigorous training, yet, knowing dogs as well as other animals, I also know that it is certainly possible for them to "train themselves" to react to unconscious as well as just "very subtle" cues.  And this goes way beyond just the sound of opening a can of dog food.

Indeed, the high level of "trainability" of any given dog allows for this actual possibility.

I therefore cannot bring myself to accept the idea that "probable cause"  generated by a dog sniffing around a car or a baggage-handling facility at an airport should be acceptable enough evidence to trigger a violation of our constitutional protections.

(The very notion of a dog being "commissioned" as a police officer offends me.)

Let the police obtain hard evidence --not merely "articulable suspicion" of a possible violation --before our constitutional rights are violated.

Especially where the "articulation" involves barking and scratching up someone's car door.

There.  I said it and I ain't takin' it back.

Terry, 230RN

Edited for minor corrections.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 03:47:25 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.