Author Topic: I'm Really Mad at Sessions (and Possibly Trump) This Morning  (Read 4300 times)

Ben

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Re: I'm Really Mad at Sessions (and Possibly Trump) This Morning
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2017, 02:34:37 PM »
No conflict of interest there. The more the Philly prosecutors steal, the more they pay themselves. Yep.

Interestingly, I heard an interview on Fox Business where they were grilling Session's deputy (I forget his name) on this. One of the things he used to justify forfeiture and show that they were getting "the bad people" was that there was a procedure for filing paperwork to try and get your money back, but "most didn't do it, so that shows they were guilty and forfeiture works" (I'm paraphrasing, but the gist is pretty accurate to what he meant).

The problem of course was that he mentioned nothing about how difficult and/or expensive that "procedure" was. Attorney and other fees could easily have people saying "You can't fight city hall" and just sucking up the unjust loss.
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Fitz

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Re: I'm Really Mad at Sessions (and Possibly Trump) This Morning
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2017, 02:36:50 PM »
It's just part of the plan to drain the swamp
Fitz

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just Warren

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Re: I'm Really Mad at Sessions (and Possibly Trump) This Morning
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2017, 02:42:53 PM »
Trump had to give Sessions something because he was one of the early Trump supporters and it had to be something good. Plus Sessions hates the Clintons from what I understand so having him around is a constant threat to that particular pack of dogs.

Not that that makes his chub-chub for forfeiture any less of a problem.
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RevDisk

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Re: I'm Really Mad at Sessions (and Possibly Trump) This Morning
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2017, 08:00:10 AM »
Trump had to give Sessions something because he was one of the early Trump supporters and it had to be something good. Plus Sessions hates the Clintons from what I understand so having him around is a constant threat to that particular pack of dogs.

Not that that makes his chub-chub for forfeiture any less of a problem.

So Trump had to sell out Americans and build up the swamp in order to pay off a corrupt official. What else could the man do? Stand up for the Constitution? Do something positive for America? Fight government corruption? Be reasonable now. Man's gonna support his corrupt buddies. And not just some chump change either!
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Fitz

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Re: I'm Really Mad at Sessions (and Possibly Trump) This Morning
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2017, 09:58:05 AM »
So Trump had to sell out Americans and build up the swamp in order to pay off a corrupt official. What else could the man do? Stand up for the Constitution? Do something positive for America? Fight government corruption? Be reasonable now. Man's gonna support his corrupt buddies. And not just some chump change either!

This

If only someone had warned us that Trump was scum
Fitz

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dogmush

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Re: I'm Really Mad at Sessions (and Possibly Trump) This Morning
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2017, 10:03:29 AM »
Well you know:  Presidents are like healthcare bills; You have to elect them to see what's in them.

Fitz

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Re: I'm Really Mad at Sessions (and Possibly Trump) This Morning
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2017, 10:05:40 AM »
Well you know:  Presidents are like healthcare bills; You have to elect them to see what's in them.

I know you're being funny, but there were folks warning of things like this for a while

some of my friends who were calling rand Paul's foreign policy "crazy" are now genuinely dumbfounded at the things trump is doing. I just don't get how people didn't see it coming
Fitz

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dogmush

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Re: I'm Really Mad at Sessions (and Possibly Trump) This Morning
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2017, 10:57:06 AM »
I know you're being funny, but there were folks warning of things like this for a while

some of my friends who were calling rand Paul's foreign policy "crazy" are now genuinely dumbfounded at the things trump is doing. I just don't get how people didn't see it coming

I'm only sorta being funny.  I was one of the folks saying Trump was a bog government not really conservative, New Yorker.

It's one thing to resignedly vote for Trump because there's nothing better. It's another to delude yourself into thinking he's something he's never been in his [literally] decades of public life.


Lots of Americans are delusional.

Fitz

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Re: I'm Really Mad at Sessions (and Possibly Trump) This Morning
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2017, 12:02:34 PM »
I'm only sorta being funny.  I was one of the folks saying Trump was a bog government not really conservative, New Yorker.

It's one thing to resignedly vote for Trump because there's nothing better. It's another to delude yourself into thinking he's something he's never been in his [literally] decades of public life.


Lots of Americans are delusional.

Yep
Fitz

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Fitz

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Re: I'm Really Mad at Sessions (and Possibly Trump) This Morning
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2017, 12:04:45 PM »
What's real funny is, some of the same people who blamed obama for even the most minor of things by a low level flunkie because it was "his administration" are now trying to separate trump from the actions of his statist doucheknuckle appointee
Fitz

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Ben

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Re: I'm Really Mad at Sessions (and Possibly Trump) This Morning
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2017, 12:11:22 PM »
What's real funny is, some of the same people who blamed obama for even the most minor of things by a low level flunkie because it was "his administration" are now trying to separate trump from the actions of his statist doucheknuckle appointee

I'm actually open to giving Trump the benefit of the doubt until I see or hear a statement from him on this. Someone above alluded that he has come out in favor, but I just haven't seen anything concrete yet.

I do recall seeing him nod his head some months back when he had some kind of LE roundtable that was televised and some moron Texas sheriff was going off on the need to expand asset forfeiture, so I don't have high hopes of his disagreeing with his AG.

The other thing that is bothersome to me is that Sessions keeps defending this on the federal level, but we know this is not going to be operationally enforced by feds, it will be implemented by local LE, and that's where all the problems really arise. You have your redneck deputies siezing assets because they find a coffee can in someone's back seats, and you have SJW city cops seizing assets because somebody has an NRA sticker on their bumper.

While I'm still against it and still find it unconstitutional on the federal level, I do believe they are targeting drug cartels. On the local level though, too many of these asset forfeiture incidents have targeted getting a new Bearcat for the local constabulary.

While I'm still 100% against pre-conviction forfeiture, I still maintain what I have mentioned before - that assets seized go to whatever the opposite of LE is on the local level, otherwise it's nothing more than an alternate income for the police budget. Also, we need to put laws in place that stop local police from monetarily benefiting through "partnering" with feds in areas where decent politicians have banned asset forfeiture at the local / state level.
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Scout26

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Re: I'm Really Mad at Sessions (and Possibly Trump) This Morning
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2017, 01:17:28 PM »
1.  Asset seizure (holding assets until after trial) I'm okay with.
2.  Asset forfeiture AFTER conviction.  I'm good with that also.
3.  All assets forfeited go to the Public Defenders office, not any LE or prosecutors offices.  And none go the the feds. 
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makattak

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Re: I'm Really Mad at Sessions (and Possibly Trump) This Morning
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2017, 01:21:32 PM »
Asset forfeiture is something that sounds like a good and just tool (e.g. it's just like going after Capone for tax evasion! You gotta get criminals however you can get them), but on inspection fails horribly.

Among all the other problems, it creates opportunities for corruption, and we ought to avoid those especially for the police.  

I've got a compromise: Nothing can be seized that is less that $10,000 in value. Makes the "it'll cost me more to get it back than it is worth!" mostly go away.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: I'm Really Mad at Sessions (and Possibly Trump) This Morning
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2017, 02:38:45 PM »
1.  Asset seizure (holding assets until after trial) I'm okay with.
2.  Asset forfeiture AFTER conviction.  I'm good with that also.
3.  All assets forfeited go to the Public Defenders office, not any LE or prosecutors offices.  And none go the the feds. 

I almost agree. I could live with your #1, but I would prefer "freezing" to "seizing" pre-conviction. (Although I'm not sure how to do that with cash, or physical assets such as boats or motor vehicles.)
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Hawkmoon

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Re: I'm Really Mad at Sessions (and Possibly Trump) This Morning
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2017, 02:42:51 PM »
Asset forfeiture is something that sounds like a good and just tool (e.g. it's just like going after Capone for tax evasion! You gotta get criminals however you can get them), but on inspection fails horribly.

I can't think of any way asset forfeiture could possibly sound like a good and just tool. The Fourth Amendment:

Quote
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

There is simply nothing at all reasonable about allowing the seizure of assets without even a finding of probable cause, let alone a conviction and judgment.
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Scout26

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Re: I'm Really Mad at Sessions (and Possibly Trump) This Morning
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2017, 02:49:45 PM »
I almost agree. I could live with your #1, but I would prefer "freezing" to "seizing" pre-conviction. (Although I'm not sure how to do that with cash, or physical assets such as boats or motor vehicles.)

Seizing.   Bank accounts frozen, Physical assets held (think impound lot, but LE responsible for protecting the property and liable for any damages+ there would be fines for fail to maintain property in working order).  Once found not guilty, you get it all back. 


Oh, and if drug related, then all assets go to drug treatment programs upon conviction.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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230RN

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Re: I'm Really Mad at Sessions (and Possibly Trump) This Morning
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2017, 05:11:02 PM »
I agree with most of what was said here.

But there was a long and very detailed discussion of this by a couple of real legal beagles on another board.

It turns out that by some weird principle of the law going back to Blackstone, the asset used in a crime or obtained through criminal action, is considered an actual criminal in and of itself under the law.  (You figure out how to pluralize that.)

As such, in order to be tried and possibly released, it has to go through its own trial with its own lawyer.

Now, I'm going by recollection from that legal quagmire which involved citations piled upon citations all the way back to whenever, but that's the way I understood it.

Therefore, Sessions may actually be following long-established precedent of law, in spite of how ridiculous it may seem to thee and me.

Terry, 230RN

RoadKingLarry

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Re: I'm Really Mad at Sessions (and Possibly Trump) This Morning
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2017, 09:59:41 PM »
Quote
It turns out that by some weird principle of the law going back to Blackstone, the asset used in a crime or obtained through criminal action, is considered an actual criminal in and of itself under the law.  (You figure out how to pluralize that.)

Which is why I keep coming back to the idea that Dick the butcher, while misguided in his interpretation, may have been right all along.

Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let%27s_kill_all_the_lawyers
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230RN

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Re: I'm Really Mad at Sessions (and Possibly Trump) This Morning
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2017, 12:59:58 PM »
Which is why I keep coming back to the idea that Dick the butcher, while misguided in his interpretation, may have been right all along.

Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let%27s_kill_all_the_lawyers

Yeah, but...

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=55151.msg1121823#msg1121823