Another ship collision

[freakazoid]

The USS John S. McCain and an oil tanker collided outside of Singapore at 0524 local. So far no word on any injuries.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/21/us-destroyer-uss-john-s-mccain-damaged-after-collision-with-oil-tanker

[Hawkmoon]

Seems like the U.S. Navy needs to spend less time on diversity and sensitivity training and more time on basic navigation.

[Scout26]

Seems like the U.S. Navy needs to spend less time on diversity and sensitivity training and more time on basic navigation.

Plus looking out of the round glass things on the front and sides of the ship.  The initial reports are damage port-side aft.  Last I checked, tankers aren't very good at sneaking up on anybody....


At this rate, given all the folks that are going to be relieved and disciplined, Freak could have his own Destroyer by the end of the year.

[BobR]

WTF is going on in the CICs on these boats. They should be tracking everything that will come within x miles of them and then track them. I am confused.


bob

[MechAg94]

Makes me wonder what is going on at the Naval Academy also.  Of course, I don't know where the blame goes for things like this or how long the people involved have been in the service.

[KD5NRH]

WTF is going on in the CICs on these boats. They should be tracking everything that will come within x miles of them and then track them.

What an interesting idea; destroyers maybe being able to figure out what's around them in case they might want to, you know, destroy something.

[Scout26]

Reports are saying 10 missing, 5 injured.   DAMMIT.  This *expletive deleted*it has got to stop.   I bet there's a admiral or two that wants some ass nailed to masts.


And it sounds like the damage is pretty severe.  We can't keep breaking ships on dumb *expletive deleted*it like this.   There has to be a training problem here, because people aren't doing their damn jobs.

[AmbulanceDriver]

Reports are saying 10 missing, 5 injured.   DAMMIT.  This *expletive deleted*it has got to stop.   I bet there's a admiral or two that wants some ass nailed to masts.


And it sounds like the damage is pretty severe.  We can't keep breaking ships on dumb *expletive deleted*it like this.   There has to be a training problem here, because people aren't doing their damn jobs.

Not sure (never being in the Navy, or any branch of the military) but I have to wonder if there isn't an over-reliance on technology.  I know in aircraft there are systems warning of traffic that's on a collision course - or even anywhere nearby.  Maybe there are instances where the people who are supposed to have their eyes on the scopes (and out on the horizon) are relying on the tech to warn them.  Or heck, maybe even the opposite is true.   The system is *too* good.  so it's picking up false returns, etc.... And instead of waking up the captain for another whale fart, they're waiting until they're *really* sure they've got an inbound track.   And by then it's too late to maneuver, etc.. 

[HankB]

Not sure (never being in the Navy, or any branch of the military) but I have to wonder if there isn't an over-reliance on technology.  I know in aircraft there are systems warning of traffic that's on a collision course - or even anywhere nearby.  Maybe there are instances where the people who are supposed to have their eyes on the scopes (and out on the horizon) are relying on the tech to warn them.  Or heck, maybe even the opposite is true.   The system is *too* good.  so it's picking up false returns, etc.... And instead of waking up the captain for another whale fart, they're waiting until they're *really* sure they've got an inbound track.   And by then it's too late to maneuver, etc.. 

If you think over reliance on tech for navigation is bad for ships at sea, JUST WAIT until there are millions of self-driving cars on the roads. 

[Hawkmoon]

Maybe there are instances where the people who are supposed to have their eyes on the scopes (and out on the horizon) are relying on the tech to warn them.  Or heck, maybe even the opposite is true.   The system is *too* good.  so it's picking up false returns, etc.... And instead of waking up the captain for another whale fart, they're waiting until they're *really* sure they've got an inbound track.   And by then it's too late to maneuver, etc..  

They have an electronic monitoring system that's probably the best in the world, but aren't they also still supposed to have "lookouts" on the bridge? Using good, old-fashioned M5 Mark IV Mod 6 eyeballs to scan the horizon around the ship? It just doesn't make sense that the watch would need permission from the Captain to avoid a collision.

One such collision is an accident, and an anecdote. At some point, multiple anecdotes start to equal "data." Two such incidents, in the same part of the world, within the span of a couple of months, seems to be indicative of a systemic problem.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/21/us-destroyer-uss-john-s-mccain-damaged-after-collision-with-oil-tanker

The US navy relieved the USS Fitzgerald’s captain of his command and other sailors were punished after the navy found poor seamanship and flaws in keeping watch contributed to the June collision. An investigation into how and why the Fitzgerald collided with the other ship was not finished, but enough details were known to take those actions, the navy said.

“Collisions like these are extremely rare and two in one summer, both from 7th Fleet based in Japan, is stunning,” said David Larter, a US navy veteran and naval warfare writer.

He added it was far too early to assess what caused the McCain to collide.

“The number of breakdowns that have to occur for something like this to happen make them a rare occurrence. Sailors monitor radars round the clock, they have multiple sailors standing watch on the bridge which also has a radar, and they have at least one lookout posted at the back end of the ship to watch for exactly these kinds of situations,” he said.

[RevDisk]

Navy has been going downhill for quite a while. Remember the sailors that allowed themselves to be captured by Iran without firing a single shot? And didn't toss all electronics and weapons into the water before capture? And the lieutenant involved made sniveling comments on tape? Hell, plenty of violations the code of conduct?

That should have sent the message there were massive deficiencies across the entire US Navy, both officer and enlisted.

I'm not shocked with these collisions, merely shocked that there haven't been more incidents.

[Hawkmoon]

Navy has been going downhill for quite a while. Remember the sailors that allowed themselves to be captured by Iran without firing a single shot? And didn't toss all electronics and weapons into the water before capture? And the lieutenant involved made sniveling comments on tape? Hell, plenty of violations the code of conduct?

That should have sent the message there were massive deficiencies across the entire US Navy, both officer and enlisted.

I'm not shocked with these collisions, merely shocked that there haven't been more incidents.

I suspect we all remember the Iran incident. It just seems the higher-ups are more concerned with getting the first female SEAL qualified than they are with properly training the fighting force.

[MechAg94]

Buy them all black berets to wear.  That will fix it.  I don't think the Navy got those.

[HankB]

Buy them all black berets to wear.  That will fix it.  I don't think the Navy got those.

Yep, that'll do it - headgear adapted from the French, the most formidable fighting force the world has seen in the last 100 years. 

[RoadKingLarry]

This might be interesting.
hearing whispers about our state of the art ships getting cyber-hacked as a possible contributor to the recent collisions.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/national-security/article168470432.html

Did we learn nothing from Battlestar Gallactica?

[230RN]

"...said David Larter, a US navy veteran and naval warfare writer."

" '...and they have at least one lookout posted at the back end of the ship to watch for exactly these kinds of situations,' he said."

He must've been simplifying it for some audience, but I had to laugh at that.  I know "stern" is German for "star," maybe that's why. "Sternmotor," for example, is "star engine," meaning a radial engine, in German.

Terry, 230RN

[Hawkmoon]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/navy-begins-broad-review-of-collisions-with-10-sailors-still-missing-1503329812

And the Navy has instituted a stand-down while they review training and procedures.

Good move. I think it's patently obvious they need to do just that.


Meanwhile, China says the U.S. Navy is a navigation hazard: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-navy-crash-china-idUSKCN1B20O2?il=0

Never mind that both destroyers were rammed amidships by the other vessels, and that the accident investigations are far from complete. Any excuse to divert attention to their (China's) militarization of artificial islands that most nations don't even agree are in Chinese waters.

[Scout26]

The Chinese have a point.   Most commercial traffic (tankers, freighters and the like) is traveling in nice straight lines, inside known shipping lanes.  They are not cutting back and forth, making unexpected, and sometimes. radical turns.

Both accidents would appear to be US Navy ships trying to cut it too close when they have made turns.   

[Hawkmoon]

The Chinese have a point.   Most commercial traffic (tankers, freighters and the like) is traveling in nice straight lines, inside known shipping lanes.  They are not cutting back and forth, making unexpected, and sometimes. radical turns.

Both accidents would appear to be US Navy ships trying to cut it too close when they have made turns.   

Like people in sports cars trying to beat the train at the crossing? Good point.

[just Warren]

China can be sneaky. Any chance these collisions were deliberate?

Maybe a hack, maybe bribing or coercing the relevant folks on the civilian ships....

I mean two damaged ships and now the entire Navy has to stand down. May they're calibrating just what it takes to cripple America's ability to maneuver in certain areas.

 

[Ben]

I'd like to give benefit of the doubt, but this is just too much. If anything, after the Fitzgerald, one would think there would be increased vigilance, including watchstander eyeballs.

I doesn't matter if the Chinese are sneaky - if we want to take the tinfoil road and say it was deliberate, it still should have never happened, at least to a US warship. If the Chinese can sneak tankers up on our warships, we've got bigger problems than we think.

Definitely time to look into training though. Maybe there is more to Mattis' order to cut diversity training and increase warfighter training than the original announcement let on. I'm curious if there has been a documented degradation of basic skillsets in the services because not enough time is allotted to reinforcing them due to all the non-essential training. Revdisk's example of the sailors that neglected to destroy classified material and cry like babies may very well be the kind of thing Mattis hopes to eliminate. I have to wonder what would happen to those sailors if that incident occurred now, with Mattis as SECDEF.

[dogmush]

I'm curious if there has been a documented degradation of basic skillsets in the services because not enough time is allotted to reinforcing them due to all the non-essential training. Revdisk's example of the sailors that neglected to destroy classified material and cry like babies may very well be the kind of thing Mattis hopes to eliminate. I have to wonder what would happen to those sailors if that incident occurred now, with Mattis as SECDEF.

Yes.

Brass spends a lot of time arguing about why exactly the degradation has happened, but such has been documented.  As well as issues with Sr. NCO and Officer retention.

[Hawkmoon]

Revdisk's example of the sailors that neglected to destroy classified material and cry like babies may very well be the kind of thing Mattis hopes to eliminate. I have to wonder what would happen to those sailors if that incident occurred now, with Mattis as SECDEF.

Going back to that incident -- didn't it occur because they didn't know where the [bleep] they were with respect to territorial waters?

[Hawkmoon]

I have to wonder what would happen to those sailors if that incident occurred now, with Mattis as SECDEF.

https://youtu.be/pWTh8inHgpQ?t=40

[KD5NRH]

https://youtu.be/pWTh8inHgpQ?t=40

I was thinking more along the lines of bringing back keelhauling.

To be done on aircraft carriers, so smaller boat crews don't get an easier time of it.