Author Topic: Another ship collision  (Read 3929 times)

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Another ship collision
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2017, 12:09:51 AM »
I was thinking more along the lines of bringing back keelhauling.

To be done on aircraft carriers, so smaller boat crews don't get an easier time of it.

Submarine, at test depth.
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RevDisk

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Re: Another ship collision
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2017, 11:02:25 AM »
On more serious note, some Naval folks I know pointed out quite a few things.

- American ships are driven 'by amateurs'. From what was explained to me by someone in a foreign military that had joint exercises with American ships, most of the ship captains do very little skippering. They have a fairly short interval as ship captain, and navigation is just one of a billion other details they have to handle. People move through jobs very quickly. Most shipping captains spend their entire careers actually working a ship. Navy captains work fifty bazillion other jobs/duties and do not stay long enough in their positions to really understand them. Same applies to other personnel as well.

- US Navy doesn't automate stuff the way the rest of the industry does. Those huge supermax ships have a tiny fraction of the crew, even granting even for the whole "lack of weapons or aircraft". They use far more low skilled, low ranking persons where the rest of the world uses automation. Allegedly, and I don't know if this is opinion or true, personnel are essentially overloaded with duties.

- US Navy regularly turns off AIS, which is sort of like air traffic control for the ocean. It is specifically designed for collision avoidance on ships. I can understand secret squirrel missions requiring AIS to be turned off, and subs would generally not want to use it. But for surface boats in shipping lanes? It should automatically be turned on.
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Ben

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Re: Another ship collision
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2017, 11:15:26 AM »

- US Navy regularly turns off AIS, which is sort of like air traffic control for the ocean. It is specifically designed for collision avoidance on ships. I can understand secret squirrel missions requiring AIS to be turned off, and subs would generally not want to use it. But for surface boats in shipping lanes? It should automatically be turned on.

Yeah, unless I'm missing something, that's just stupid. Seems like there would be ZERO reason (dogmush, freak, dm1333, correct me if I'm wrong) that there would be an operational need to turn AIS off in a busy shipping lane during a normal transit.

I used to always see the local USCG cutters pop up on my AIS in the office when they were in a regular transit. They mostly just cut it off when they were patrolling for homeland stuff, druggies, illegal fishing, etc. Canadian military would often pass through the channel when they were doing some joint ops stuff, and they would transmit on AIS as well.
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230RN

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Re: Another ship collision
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2017, 11:45:39 AM »
...
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 01:39:19 PM by 230RN »

dogmush

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Re: Another ship collision
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2017, 12:43:28 PM »
- American ships are driven 'by amateurs'. From what was explained to me by someone in a foreign military that had joint exercises with American ships, most of the ship captains do very little skippering. They have a fairly short interval as ship captain, and navigation is just one of a billion other details they have to handle. People move through jobs very quickly. Most shipping captains spend their entire careers actually working a ship. Navy captains work fifty bazillion other jobs/duties and do not stay long enough in their positions to really understand them. Same applies to other personnel as well.

[ahem] US Navy ships are driven by amateurs.  There are plenty of US Military vessels that are skippered by officers that spend their entire career just doing that.  That's why the Army uses Warrant Officers as Vessel Masters, so that they don't have officers with years of sea experience wasted on shore duty and stupid non vessel handling positions.  The USCG, likewise, has their vessel captains predominantly be a vessel captain, even if they do stoop to using regular officers.

Quote
Yeah, unless I'm missing something, that's just stupid. Seems like there would be ZERO reason (dogmush, freak, dm1333, correct me if I'm wrong) that there would be an operational need to turn AIS off in a busy shipping lane during a normal transit.

There seems to be an ongoing cultural tug of war among the US Military services as to how much to interact with civilian vessels while underway.  My experience has been that it's not just AIS.  US Navy Warship commanders (at least if the ship is over 500' or so) don't like to communicate on non tactical radios, or talk to Vessel Traffic Systems, or work out passing arraignments, or much of anything.  It seems to be cultural from the blue water Surface Warfare* Guys.  The smaller coastal patrol boats, LCS's, and LCU/LSD's I've worked with don't have this issue.  Nor does the Coast Guard.

As to AIS specifically, the US Navy does not transmit (at least I've never seen them do so).  There are valid reasons for not transmitting warship location and track data, ever.  And the military AIS systems can receive but not transmit, so you can still use the system to help stand watch. It's up to the Vessel Master to weigh the traffic, tactical situation, and mission to decide where the greater risk lies.  That's why we get the big staterooms.  As far as I know there isn't (yet) a blanket policy on AIS transmission.  I know the Army doesn't have one.

FWIW, when I'm OCONUS, I only transmit AIS when I'm actually IN a controlled Vessel Traffic System.  And only then while I'm actually talking to the controllers.  So, I'll fire it up about 5 min before the fist call in, and kill it as soon as I check out. That's my SOP even on non-tactical OCONUS transits, so that no one can keep track of when I turn it off and figure out I'm doing something interesting on any particular trip.  But other skippers do other things.  My watchstanders and I understand though, that when I choose to do that, it puts even more responsibility on us to be vigilant and communicate with traffic, because we aren't automatically populating on their equipment.

*and subs on the surface.  Those aholes never talk to ANYONE, and try to enforce stupid separation rules with no authority.  "I know I'm in a channel that's 1000yds wide, and the water is 6 feet deep outside it, but you need to leave me 2 nautical miles to your port".  F Off, ya big whale, we'll pass just fine.

ETA:  It's also worth mentioning that every US Navy Chief Boatswain's Mate I've ever met or worked with has been a solid professional mariner.  Perhaps the Officer's of the Watch aren't listening to the Chiefs, or the Navy is having SR NCO retention issues as well, I don't know.   
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 01:15:31 PM by dogmush »

Ben

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Re: Another ship collision
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2017, 04:03:33 PM »

There seems to be an ongoing cultural tug of war among the US Military services as to how much to interact with civilian vessels while underway.  My experience has been that it's not just AIS.  US Navy Warship commanders (at least if the ship is over 500' or so) don't like to communicate on non tactical radios, or talk to Vessel Traffic Systems, or work out passing arraignments, or much of anything.  It seems to be cultural from the blue water Surface Warfare* Guys.  The smaller coastal patrol boats, LCS's, and LCU/LSD's I've worked with don't have this issue.  Nor does the Coast Guard.

As to AIS specifically, the US Navy does not transmit (at least I've never seen them do so).  There are valid reasons for not transmitting warship location and track data, ever.  And the military AIS systems can receive but not transmit, so you can still use the system to help stand watch. It's up to the Vessel Master to weigh the traffic, tactical situation, and mission to decide where the greater risk lies.  That's why we get the big staterooms.  As far as I know there isn't (yet) a blanket policy on AIS transmission.  I know the Army doesn't have one.

FWIW, when I'm OCONUS, I only transmit AIS when I'm actually IN a controlled Vessel Traffic System.  And only then while I'm actually talking to the controllers.  So, I'll fire it up about 5 min before the fist call in, and kill it as soon as I check out. That's my SOP even on non-tactical OCONUS transits, so that no one can keep track of when I turn it off and figure out I'm doing something interesting on any particular trip.  But other skippers do other things.  My watchstanders and I understand though, that when I choose to do that, it puts even more responsibility on us to be vigilant and communicate with traffic, because we aren't automatically populating on their equipment.

*and subs on the surface.  Those aholes never talk to ANYONE, and try to enforce stupid separation rules with no authority.  "I know I'm in a channel that's 1000yds wide, and the water is 6 feet deep outside it, but you need to leave me 2 nautical miles to your port".  F Off, ya big whale, we'll pass just fine.

ETA:  It's also worth mentioning that every US Navy Chief Boatswain's Mate I've ever met or worked with has been a solid professional mariner.  Perhaps the Officer's of the Watch aren't listening to the Chiefs, or the Navy is having SR NCO retention issues as well, I don't know.   

Thank you dogmush. That was an excellent explanation. While I by no means would expect AIS use outside busy shipping lanes, I sometimes forget about the norks, Chinese, and french and Japanese and Canadians for that matter that like to see what we're up to. Especially when it's as easy as sitting at a computer with Internet access.

You give good reason for keeping it off, while also recognizing that extra vigilance is needed, whether electronic or eyeball, in those busy areas.
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never_retreat

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Re: Another ship collision
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2017, 10:01:42 PM »
I needed a mod to change my signature because the concept of "family friendly" eludes me.
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Boomhauer

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Re:
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2017, 06:06:55 AM »
From what I've been reading, across the board the military is entirely too focused on stupid *expletive deleted*it vs what they need to be focused on

That does not bode well for us at all. 

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freakazoid

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Re: Another ship collision
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2017, 07:14:31 AM »
Definitely time to look into training though. Maybe there is more to Mattis' order to cut diversity training and increase warfighter training than the original announcement let on. I'm curious if there has been a documented degradation of basic skillsets in the services because not enough time is allotted to reinforcing them due to all the non-essential training. Revdisk's example of the sailors that neglected to destroy classified material and cry like babies may very well be the kind of thing Mattis hopes to eliminate. I have to wonder what would happen to those sailors if that incident occurred now, with Mattis as SECDEF.

And "Optimum manning" meaning less people to take care of maintenance, etc.
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lupinus

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Re:
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2017, 09:43:48 AM »
I also read that the Navy has relieved the fleets commander.

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Re:
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2017, 01:28:22 PM »
I also read that the Navy has relieved the fleets commander.

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MechAg94

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Re: Another ship collision
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2017, 02:49:06 PM »

ETA:  It's also worth mentioning that every US Navy Chief Boatswain's Mate I've ever met or worked with has been a solid professional mariner.  Perhaps the Officer's of the Watch aren't listening to the Chiefs, or the Navy is having SR NCO retention issues as well, I don't know.   
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Hawkmoon

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Re:
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2017, 04:58:21 PM »
I also read that the Navy has relieved the fleets commander.


I'm of two minds on that.

Part of me says, the guy is a freakin' FLYBOY, WTF is he doing in charge of a fleet of surface (and under-surface) ships?

And another part of me says, he wasn't driving the boats, and he probably wasn't in charge of training the guys who WERE driving the boats, so how -- exactly -- is it his fault?


And, regardless of whose fault it was (or wasn't) -- how do you fix that with a ONE DAY stand-down?
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just Warren

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Re: Another ship collision
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2017, 05:07:44 PM »
I wonder if this ships had 12-14 inches (or whatever such a sized ship could carry) of armor on their hulls would their have been any deaths? Injuries from an unexpected impact sure, but fatalities?

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Re:
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2017, 05:38:45 PM »
I'm of two minds on that.

Part of me says, the guy is a freakin' FLYBOY, WTF is he doing in charge of a fleet of surface (and under-surface) ships?

And another part of me says, he wasn't driving the boats, and he probably wasn't in charge of training the guys who WERE driving the boats, so how -- exactly -- is it his fault?


And, regardless of whose fault it was (or wasn't) -- how do you fix that with a ONE DAY stand-down?

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dm1333

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Re: Another ship collision
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2017, 11:34:04 AM »
Yeah, unless I'm missing something, that's just stupid. Seems like there would be ZERO reason (dogmush, freak, dm1333, correct me if I'm wrong) that there would be an operational need to turn AIS off in a busy shipping lane during a normal transit.

I used to always see the local USCG cutters pop up on my AIS in the office when they were in a regular transit. They mostly just cut it off when they were patrolling for homeland stuff, druggies, illegal fishing, etc. Canadian military would often pass through the channel when they were doing some joint ops stuff, and they would transmit on AIS as well.

Sorry for the delay.  AIS is a useful tool in shipping lanes, I don't know why they would turn it off.  It's not like people couldn't look out a bridge window and see the big gray warship. 

Hawkmoon

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Re: Another ship collision
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2017, 01:37:56 PM »
Sorry for the delay.  AIS is a useful tool in shipping lanes, I don't know why they would turn it off.  It's not like people couldn't look out a bridge window and see the big gray warship. 

Not if it has its Romulan cloaking device activated.
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dm1333

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Re: Another ship collision
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2017, 03:00:07 PM »
Not if it has its Romulan cloaking device activated.

Our AIS transponders do have a secure mode but it isn't as good as the Romulan cloaking device.  :laugh:

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Re: Another ship collision
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2017, 03:17:49 PM »
you should get a Romneyulan Cloaking Device, one day you look like one type of ship the next you're an entirely different type of ship. It depends on who is looking at the ship on any given day.

It comes complete with the highly-advanced Finger-in-the-Wind antenna system and the two-setting Flip-or-Flop actuator module.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 03:35:04 PM by Warren »
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Another ship collision
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2017, 04:05:20 PM »
you should get a Romneyulan Cloaking Device, one day you look like one type of ship the next you're an entirely different type of ship. It depends on who is looking at the ship on any given day.

It comes complete with the highly-advanced Finger-in-the-Wind antenna system and the two-setting Flip-or-Flop actuator module.

Are you trying to get this thread moved to the polly-ticks discussion area?
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HeroHog

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Re: Another ship collision
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2017, 06:45:00 PM »
you should get a Romneyulan Cloaking Device, one day you look like one type of ship the next you're an entirely different type of ship. It depends on who is looking at the ship on any given day.

It comes complete with the highly-advanced Finger-in-the-Wind antenna system and the two-setting Flip-or-Flop actuator module.

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Re: Another ship collision
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2017, 06:48:08 PM »
Of course you can quote, and use my name if you like. Thank you.
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Re: Another ship collision
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2017, 01:26:15 AM »
Of course you can quote, and use my name if you like. Thank you.


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Hawkmoon

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Re: Another ship collision
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2017, 10:25:02 PM »
News Update: The U.S. Navy has completed a study that shows there's a better chance of avoiding collisions if the people driving the boat watch where they're going.

Or something like that.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/27/us/politics/navy-orders-safety-operational-standards.html?mtrref=www.drudgereport.com&gwh=475C6A0C338E25898FD94FA63BEC4FA5&gwt=pay
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freakazoid

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Re: Another ship collision
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2017, 11:16:39 PM »
News Update: The U.S. Navy has completed a study that shows there's a better chance of avoiding collisions if the people driving the boat watch where they're going.

Or something like that.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/27/us/politics/navy-orders-safety-operational-standards.html?mtrref=www.drudgereport.com&gwh=475C6A0C338E25898FD94FA63BEC4FA5&gwt=pay

I know on the ship I was on the OS's still used a compass and charts to plot their course and to see how close they would get to other ships and would compare it to what the QM's had on the bridge, and the TAO would be calling out every ship around. I wonder if other ships don't normally do that? ???

Quote
The Navy has allowed ships to rely on grueling watch schedules that leave captains and crews exhausted, even though the service ordered submarines to abandon similar schedules two years ago. A Government Accountability Office report from May said sailors were on duty up to 108 hours each week.

What did they expect was going to happen with "optimum" manning? :facepalm:
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