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Author Topic: Melting down artifacts in Sweden?  (Read 1570 times)
freakazoid
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« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2017, 04:44:58 AM »

"How much alcohol bootlegging is going on now, compared with 1930?"

Non sequitor.

In 1930 virtually ALL alcohol -- production, sale, and in many cases, possession -- was strictly illegal. That created a completely different kind of market.

I think that is the point.
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"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic
Mike Irwin
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« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2017, 04:52:24 AM »

I think that is the point.

No, it's not the point.

Because while bootlegging does exist today, so does legal at home beer and wine production in addition to legal industrial production. It didn't in 1930. It was zero sum.

The alcohol situation in 1930 would only be applicable if ALL artifact possession and recovery were outlawed.
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cordex
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« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2017, 04:53:55 AM »

Mike,

Just to clarify, your argument is as follows:
1. There exists an illegal market in artifacts
2. There exists a legal market in artifacts
3. There exists an oversupply in low-historical-value artifacts which need not be kept by museums or research institutions.
4. If those low-historical-value artifacts were sold on the legal market, the illegal market in artifacts would likewise grow, thereby putting at risk as-yet undiscovered high-historical-value artifacts by unscrupulous researchers and/or freelance mooks with metal detectors.

If so, I sort of see your point, but I'm not convinced.  In relatively population-dense places such as Europe, regular commercial development is likely a much greater risk to undiscovered artifacts than artifact hunters.  If there didn't already exist a legal artifact market then the idea of researching looting the interesting stuff and applying a scorched earth policy for the rest might make some sort of sense.  As it is, I don't see how selling off items of limited historical value would suddenly spur the illegal market.
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Mike Irwin
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« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2017, 05:05:15 AM »

"regular commercial development is likely a much greater risk to undiscovered artifacts"


That's pretty much true everywhere.

It's why many nations in Europe, and also many states in the US, have stringent historic preservation laws that mandate archaeological surveys before projects on public land take place. In some cases, those laws also extend to projects on private land if the project is supported by public funds.

These can involve research in historic records, site surveys (ground penetrating radar, aerial flyovers/photography, particularly infra red, and sometimes even satellite surveys) and test pits/trenches.

During construction of the interstate system there were some amazing archaeological sites uncovered, some that force the relocation of entire stretches of interstate because of their importance.
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freakazoid
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« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2017, 05:22:49 AM »

No, it's not the point.

It is.
Back then people wanted alcohol. It was illegal. People were willing to break the law to get them illegally.
People want artifacts. It is illegal. People are willing to break the law to get them illegally. People still illegally acquire them from people willing to dig them up illegally.

Now.
People would much rather follow the law and get things legally. Alcohol IS legal. People buy it legally as opposed to illegally.
Artifacts become legal. People would much rather follow the law and get things legally. It is now legal to buy the extra unneeded artifacts from the museum. People buy them legally as opposed to the person acquiring them illegally.
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"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic
Mike Irwin
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« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2017, 07:03:08 AM »

Here's a bit of modern archaeology for you.

Wonder who would want to buy this?

https://www.thelocal.de/20170830/largest-ever-evacuation-set-to-take-place-in-frankfurt-after-wwii-bomb-found
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Mike Irwin
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« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2017, 07:04:43 AM »

"People want artifacts. It is illegal."

As I've already explained, and which you've ignored, NO it is NOT.

Alcohol was TOTAL prohibition. That is NOT the same as archaeological relics today.

Understand the difference, because the situations are not the same.
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230RN
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Re:
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2017, 08:03:52 AM »

....
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 12:16:23 PM by 230RN » Logged

The word "infringed" has no meaning any more. Or maybe it's the word "not."   I can't decide which.
BTR
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« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2017, 08:24:56 AM »

I don't know the "best" thing to do, but I can think of a parallel.  I am a fossil collector.  Some scientists hate people like me, because they think fossils should only be collected or owned by them, even common things like shark teeth.

I view the private ownership of things like artifacts and fossils as helping to increase education and interest in the sciences.  I give fossil shark teeth to little kids, and they LOVE them!  Who knows if one might grow up to be a paleontologist?  Maybe the chance to own an artifact will create a similar love of studying history in others.... that is better than melting them down.
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freakazoid
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« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2017, 03:37:35 PM »

"But even more to the point, how do they know they've fully studied the artifacts?  How much information have we gained by reexamining long-since-found-looked-at-and-filed-away artifacts with advanced imaging, x-rays, carbon dating, etc.?  Imagine if Ramesses II had been simply sent off for cremation after an 1880s-technology exam, how much less we would know."

Let's see... 30+ thousand of these... with hundreds, if not thousands, more found on virtually every American archaeological site.




vs...





Which should be kept?

You figure it out.


"In the finds catalog, coins, knives, a tin ornament, a ring and a weight from the Viking Age or early Middle Ages have been placed in the column ôWeeded Outö.

Current research about weights and measures focusing on the Viking era is underway, ôsays Lena Holmquist, archaeologist at Stockholm University.

But one puzzle piece is gone"

So no, it's not just some rusty nails being thrown out.
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"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic
freakazoid
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« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2017, 03:43:56 PM »

"People want artifacts. It is illegal."

As I've already explained, and which you've ignored, NO it is NOT.

Alcohol was TOTAL prohibition. That is NOT the same as archaeological relics today.

Understand the difference, because the situations are not the same.

In Sweden?
So if it is not illegal, then what is the problem? What I said still holds true. People would much rather buy things legally. You provide a legal way for people to get something, you pretty much shut off the illegal means of getting things.
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"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic
Amy Schumer
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« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2017, 03:46:39 PM »

How about if the Museums and such sold the stuff they were going to destroy to collectors to further funding for legal archeology, to pay people to turn in their "finds" to museums.  I'll just point to "Sue" that sits (stands actually) in The Field Museum here in Chicago...

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Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
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Put our backs to the north wind.
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Sweet memories to drive us on for the motherland.
Warren
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My shackleford is rusty.


« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2017, 03:48:25 PM »

There are likely people interested in this "junk" so grant entrepreneurs and artists concessions to see if they can make anything from this stuff.

I'm sure there are plenty of artists that would love to incorporate historical things like this into their work if they could get the stuff cheap enough. And entrepreneurs could do games, collectibles-by-subscription, educational materials, or for use in interior or exterior design and maybe other things.

So why waste it?
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RoadKingLarry
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« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2017, 04:32:26 PM »

I would hope that before the artifacts are destroyed that other museums and/or colleges and schools are given a chance to take them. While they may not be "worthy" of the big time they could still be valuable for use as study aids for schools.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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Mike Irwin
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« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2017, 03:48:20 AM »

"While they may not be "worthy" of the big time they could still be valuable for use as study aids for schools."

Hum... Elegant possible solution.
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Mike Irwin
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« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2017, 03:52:31 AM »

"In Sweden?
So if it is not illegal, then what is the problem? What I said still holds true. People would much rather buy things legally. You provide a legal way for people to get something, you pretty much shut off the illegal means of getting things."

Yes. Virtually every nation has laws regarding protection and theft of antiquities from archaeological sites.


"People would much rather buy things legally. You provide a legal way for people to get something, you pretty much shut off the illegal means of getting things."

Once again, cigarettes and alcohol. If what you say were actually true, which it's not, there wouldn't be a thriving black market trade in either item.

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tokugawa
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« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2017, 07:09:27 AM »

Mike,

Just to clarify, your argument is as follows:
1. There exists an illegal market in artifacts
2. There exists a legal market in artifacts
3. There exists an oversupply in low-historical-value artifacts which need not be kept by museums or research institutions.
4. If those low-historical-value artifacts were sold on the legal market, the illegal market in artifacts would likewise grow, thereby putting at risk as-yet undiscovered high-historical-value artifacts by unscrupulous researchers and/or freelance mooks with metal detectors.

If so, I sort of see your point, but I'm not convinced..........  As it is, I don't see how selling off items of limited historical value would suddenly spur the illegal market.--- 

 You are correct- It won't.  Number 4 does not follow.    Competition lowers prices. Increasing supply lowers prices. Lowering prices reduces incentives to enter the market.

 This is very similar to the idiocy shown when African country's  make a big spectacle of burning giant piles of confiscated ivory, rather than issuing a use permit and selling it at or below the illegal trading value. At one stroke they had an opportunity to lower prices for illegal ivory, thus removing incentives for poaching, and also getting a chunk of money to help fund anti-poaching efforts. And the economic illiterates threw away the benefits to make a fancy fashionable eco statement.

  For example, if one could buy a certified genuine mine ball from a battlefield for a few dollars from a Museum, or the Park Service, what incentive remains for for a illegal seller to go digging them up , with very little profit and risk of prosecution?

  OT- On preview, why did a "barf" icon auto-insert after "African country" ,in my comment? I did NOT put it there. Someone is running some funny software or something- I will try to remove it. if ya'all don't see it, it worked.
 
 
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cordex
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« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2017, 07:28:02 AM »

You are correct- It won't.  Number 4 does not follow.    Competition lowers prices. Increasing supply lowers prices. Lowering prices reduces incentives to enter the market.
CIGARETTES!
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BTR
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« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2017, 08:09:59 AM »

Is private ownership of artifacts legitimate or should only the gov / scientists own artifacts?

That is the question.

I know what I think.
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Amy Schumer
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« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2017, 08:35:15 AM »


Once again, cigarettes and alcohol. If what you say were actually true, which it's not, there wouldn't be a thriving black market trade in either item.


Not quite the same.  The thriving black market in cigarettes and alcohol is because of taxes.  Cigarettes are now $12 a pack in Chicago.  They are $5-$6 in Indiana.  Same with booze.  Back when I worked at Airborne Express at Midway (station was located at 127th and Cicero, about 60 blocks south of the Airport), we had most of drivers hop over to Indiana to buy gas.  I also smoked back then, so I would have a driver pick me up a carton or two of smokes, because they was so much cheaper then Cook county or even were I live in Dupage county.     I always buy gas and booze when I'm in Indiana as opposed to Illinois.  I guess I've been a quasi-"Black Marketer" for a long time.  

But that the reason for the Black Market in things like "loosies" in NYC.  That why that Eric Gardner was killed/died.  And that's why there is a black market in those.  Insane tax policies.

Same here.  If there was a thriving legal market, then it would drive out the illegal market.  I will once again point to Sue. Discovered by amateurs and bought by the Field Museum.  Same here.  Think of how much "Good Stuff" could be purchased by Museums et al., if the sold off the "Bad Stuff" to collectors.  The collectors are going to collect.  

And if it were like legal hunting in Africa, then wouldn't be these problems. Legal hunting make Poaching impractical, because the animals become a local asset instead of a local liability.  (US importation laws are beyond stupid and do nothing to help either the African people and/or animals.)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQh-f1rBjx4


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Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on for the motherland.
tokugawa
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Posts: 2,140


« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2017, 08:48:43 AM »

And if it were like legal hunting in Africa, then wouldn't be these problems. Legal hunting make Poaching impractical, because the animals become a local asset instead of a local liability.  (US importation laws are beyond stupid and do nothing to help either the African people and/or animals.)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQh-f1rBjx4

 Ya think? I have seen antique arms collections where US Customs has pried off and destroyed 200 year old ivory sword hilts, old bronzes where they have pried of the ivory heads and hands, the musical instrument community is now in trepidation over instruments crossing borders, etc. Cultural Vandalism is what it is, under the guise of Eco-progress.
 
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Mike Irwin
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« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2017, 03:40:29 AM »

"And if it were like legal hunting in Africa, then wouldn't be these problems. Legal hunting make Poaching impractical, because the animals become a local asset instead of a local liability.  (US importation laws are beyond stupid and do nothing to help either the African people and/or animals.) "

Oh really?

There's legal hunting in Africa, and in the exact same places there's poaching going on for the same animals.

Your argument doesn't work because the people who want the commodity from the animal (ivory is the biggie) don't feel like going on a safari and playing Bush Bwana. They just want the commodity, and don't give a *expletive deleted*it how they get it.




"Not quite the same.  The thriving black market in cigarettes and alcohol is because of taxes.  Cigarettes are now $12 a pack in Chicago."

That's hyperparsing and niggling the concept, playing contortionist to "make" your untrue argument somehow true. Your argument is Open Market equals End of Illegal Activity!

That's crap and you know.
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RoadKingLarry
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« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2017, 04:06:25 AM »

"While they may not be "worthy" of the big time they could still be valuable for use as study aids for schools."

Hum... Elegant possible solution.


Be an excellent choice for all sorts of experimentation with testing methods for non-invasive up to full on destructive forensic analysis
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams
Mike Irwin
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« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2017, 04:13:20 AM »

And I'd be an absolute liar if I said that I didn't have a vision of the Swedish chef walking up to a school and throwing a big bag of surplus stuff on the principal's desk...

ER SKERBA DERBA DO! or whatever he used to say...
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freakazoid
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« Reply #49 on: September 01, 2017, 06:49:01 AM »

"And if it were like legal hunting in Africa, then wouldn't be these problems. Legal hunting make Poaching impractical, because the animals become a local asset instead of a local liability.  (US importation laws are beyond stupid and do nothing to help either the African people and/or animals.) "

Oh really?

There's legal hunting in Africa, and in the exact same places there's poaching going on for the same animals.

Your argument doesn't work because the people who want the commodity from the animal (ivory is the biggie) don't feel like going on a safari and playing Bush Bwana. They just want the commodity, and don't give a *expletive deleted*it how they get it.

No. What it does is give an incentive to protect the animals from poaching.



Quote
"Not quite the same.  The thriving black market in cigarettes and alcohol is because of taxes.  Cigarettes are now $12 a pack in Chicago."

That's hyperparsing and niggling the concept, playing contortionist to "make" your untrue argument somehow true. Your argument is Open Market equals End of Illegal Activity!

That's crap and you know.

No it's not.
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"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic
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