Author Topic: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile  (Read 3586 times)

Ben

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Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« on: August 28, 2017, 06:44:04 PM »
Well, the Norks overflew Japan with a missile just a little while ago. Japan reported several of its cities were potentially in danger. The Fox story doesn't mention it, but another story I read has video of sirens going off and an alert announcement in some Japanese city.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/08/28/north-korea-fires-unidentified-missile-reports-say.html
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2017, 06:47:50 PM »
The little guy's been missing all the attention he was getting there for a while.
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Fly320s

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Re: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2017, 07:23:30 PM »
At what altitude?

I'm curious what altitude triggers concern.  Obvously, orbital altitude is not a problem.  So what is the minimum? In the U.S., the airspace above 60,000 feet is uncontrolled according to the FAA. 
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Scout26

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Re: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2017, 07:35:54 PM »
At what altitude?


Does it matter ??  Launching a missile over anyone's airspace is bad ju-ju.   

Here's betting the next one doesn't make very far over the Sea of Japan...
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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Ben

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Re: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2017, 07:43:21 PM »
The article says altitude was 341 miles (unknown which kind) but not what it was over Japan. Plus we (the public) don't know the flight profile. The alerts in Japan could have been very overly cautious, or given the midget's mental state, a wise precaution.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Fly320s

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Re: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2017, 08:29:34 PM »
Does it matter ??  Launching a missile over anyone's airspace is bad ju-ju.   

Of course it matters.  What is the difference between a missile and a rocket? 

We have satellites flying over every place on earth, but no one complains about those.
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

bedlamite

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Re: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2017, 08:57:56 PM »
The article says altitude was 341 miles (unknown which kind) but not what it was over Japan. Plus we (the public) don't know the flight profile. The alerts in Japan could have been very overly cautious, or given the midget's mental state, a wise precaution.

I think the 341 miles was distance, not altitude. The ISS is 250 miles up.
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Ben

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Re: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2017, 09:06:02 PM »
I think the 341 miles was distance, not altitude. The ISS is 250 miles up.

From the Fox article (which may have erroneous data):

Quote
The South Korean military said the missile flew about 1,700 miles with a height of 341 miles. That's lower than the 2,300 miles into space an intercontinental ballistic missile traveled in late July. North Korea’s July 4 ICBM traveled some 1,700 miles into space.

Plus Hokaidu is about 500-700 statute miles (depending on launch site) from the NK coast.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Hawkmoon

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Re: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2017, 11:09:21 PM »
The Norks are really progressing fast. They've also developed stealth bombers:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4830788/Can-Kim-Jong-considering-using-70-year-old-biplanes.html

Rumor is the midget has been trying to recruit Snoopy as a flight instructor ...
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AJ Dual

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Re: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2017, 11:21:49 PM »
At what altitude?

I'm curious what altitude triggers concern.  Obvously, orbital altitude is not a problem.  So what is the minimum? In the U.S., the airspace above 60,000 feet is uncontrolled according to the FAA. 

To a degree, the altitude isn't an issue. Because even if the flight plan is intended to cross at high altitude out in space, and land in a very remote and empty part of the Pacific ocean, a rocket of "Nork Quality" can't be trusted to not fail and fall short and actually hitting somewhere they didn't intend it to.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2017, 12:32:56 AM »
The Norks are really progressing fast. They've also developed stealth bombers:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4830788/Can-Kim-Jong-considering-using-70-year-old-biplanes.html

Rumor is the midget has been trying to recruit Snoopy as a flight instructor ...

A cousin of mine restored a. AN-2 a couple of decades, neat plane.
And on the surface it may seem laughable the concept put forth in the article is a workable approach.
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Big Hairy Bee

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Re: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2017, 02:07:28 AM »
A cousin of mine restored a. AN-2 a couple of decades, neat plane.
And on the surface it may seem laughable the concept put forth in the article is a workable approach.


The MASH episode Five OClock Charlie immediately came to mind...

230RN

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Re: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2017, 08:29:14 AM »
A cousin of mine restored a. AN-2 a couple of decades, neat plane.
And on the surface it may seem laughable the concept put forth in the article is a workable approach.


That kind of bothered me.  They may be out-thinking us, or the western powers, or whatever you want to call "us."  I'm not so sure we should be making quite so many jokes about them.  How would even a relatively slow Warthog deal with an armed but almost invisible AN-2 put-put-putting along with its nice cool radial engine leaving a thermal trail only 10° warmer than ambient?

I'm not a military strategist, but I wouldn't mind taking a peek up their sleeves.  I guess they've already manipulated the situation so that a pre-emptive strike from us, even a non-nuclear one, is out of the question.

And I'm not so sure the Chinese are worried about a land buffer zone and are possibly subtly encouraging some of his activities and using him as a test probe.

Are there really any buffer zones in regard to today's kind of warfare?

Are there any real strategic thinkers left in our PC-crippled upper military ranks, who seem to be enamored of high-tech cutting edge warfare?

"Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee."

I'm not so sure we should be making quite so many jokes about them.

Maybe we should be arming a bunch of Piper Cubs.

Terry, "But what do I know?," 230RN
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 08:49:53 AM by 230RN »
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Scout26

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Re: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2017, 11:48:50 AM »

Are there really any buffer zones in regard to today's kind of warfare?


Yes,  The Chinese really, really, really don't want US and RoK troops on the Yalu.   Much like Russia didn't want Ukraine in NATO and suddenly have US (and perhaps German) troops on their border.  (Even though we currently have an IBCT [waves at wmenorr  =D] in Lviv.   And why Belarus is a Russian client/satellite state.  

Would you be comfortable with Russian or Chinese troops on our Northern or Southern borders ??   (Yes, it would cut down on illegal immigration...)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 12:44:23 PM by Amy Schumer »
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

dogmush

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Re: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2017, 12:42:58 PM »
I'm not so sure we should be making quite so many jokes about them.

Terry, "But what do I know?," 230RN


Who's laughing,  the Facebook general's?

 All the professional officers I know are saying some version of "We don't want to go to war with 1,000,000 angry yellow folks, it'd suck."

We're also brushing off and updating the plans from Inchon. Nobody with a clue thinks the Norks would be easy or pushovers.  And they are unlikely to surrender and/or run like some of our recent foes.*

*that's both good and bad. One of our problems in the mideast is finding the right people to kill. That's unlikely to be a problem in Korea.

Ben

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Re: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2017, 12:57:21 PM »
Who's laughing,  the Facebook general's?

 All the professional officers I know are saying some version of "We don't want to go to war with 1,000,000 angry yellow folks, it'd suck."

We're also brushing off and updating the plans from Inchon. Nobody with a clue thinks the Norks would be easy or pushovers.  And they are unlikely to surrender and/or run like some of our recent foes.*

*that's both good and bad. One of our problems in the mideast is finding the right people to kill. That's unlikely to be a problem in Korea.

From the armchair, if we had no choice but to go to war, and if ever we faced a foe that required the von Clausewitz "bring them to their knees on day one"  tactic for us to come out on top with the least casualties on either side, it's the North Koreans. Whether our leadership has the cajones for it (sadly, largely from the public perception side) is unknown. Mattis would, I think. But though he's SECDEF, he's only one guy in a committee.
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Scout26

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Re: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2017, 01:42:54 PM »
The "Saipan Ratio":

Quote
After the Japanese attack failed, General Saito and Admiral Chuichi Nagumo committed suicide, joining in death nearly all of the island’s 30,000 Japanese defenders. U.S. casualties were also heavy: 2,949 killed in action and 10,364 wounded (about 20 percent of the American invasion force). The high number of American casualties at Saipan relative to those inflicted on the Japanese defenders (known as the “Saipan ratio”) shocked the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS). An August 1944 JCS report ominously noted: “On this basis it might cost us half a million American lives and many times that number wounded … in the [Japanese] home islands.” Saito’s defense of Saipan failed, but the Americans’ bloody combat experience there, and later at Iwo Jima and Okinawa in 1945, inexorably led to the United States’ fateful decision to use atomic bombs to end the Pacific War. (See D.M. Giangreco’s acclaimed book Hell to Pay, Naval Institute Press, 2009.)

Iwo Jima: US Casualties: 6,821 killed 19,217 wounded (26,038 total)  Japanese:  17,845–18,375 dead, over 3000 missing, 216 captured (20,530–21,060 troops total so 20,314-20,744 killed)  Making the "Iwo Jima Ratio":  roughly 4:1 or somewhere between 1.25-1.28-1 including wounded.

Okinawa: US 20,195 dead, 55,162 wounded (75,357 total).  Japanese: ~96,000 killed with another 7,000 captured.  The "Okinawa Ratio" was roughly 5:1 or 1.27:1 including wounded.   (another 40,000-150,000 Okinawan civilians killed out a population of roughly 300,000 or roughly 13%-50%)

Given that the US expected that 3.5 Million Japanese troops were be available to defend the Home Islands, the decision to drop the Atomic Bombs was a no-brainer.    After Okinawa, the US Military signed a contract for 1 million Purple Heart medals for the Invasions of the Home Islands.  Only 500,00 were made before the war ended.  Those medals are still the ones being handed out through Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, and now in Afghanistan.

What does that have to do with North Korea ??

The Norks are more fervently devoted to the Kims then the Japanese were to the Emperor.   Every single ones would rather die/be killed then surrender to the RoK's or US soldiers.  And they will try to take as many ROKs or Americans with them as possible.

And there are ~25.4 million Norks.   Seoul is less then 30 miles from the DMZ and the Norks have thousands of tube and missile artillery pieces that can hit Seoul and it's 10.3 million people.   Even if we did take out Kim and much of his missile capability, it will be a bloodbath on par with civilian causalities on Okinawa, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and the Firebombing of Tokyo, combined.

Which is why I truly hope that the Chinese will do the Decapitate and Disarm strike and put someone they can control a little better on the "throne", and leave us the ROK the hell out of it...



eta: cleaned up spelling errors and some cut and paste errors
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 12:07:28 AM by Amy Schumer »
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

BobR

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Re: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2017, 01:49:57 PM »
The Norks are really progressing fast. They've also developed stealth bombers:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4830788/Can-Kim-Jong-considering-using-70-year-old-biplanes.html

Rumor is the midget has been trying to recruit Snoopy as a flight instructor ...

If nothing else when you stall an AN2 they don't fall out of the sky uncontrollably, the forward slats drop and it gently (more or less) returns to mother earth.

I would love to have one to putter around the US in after I retire.

bob

AJ Dual

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Re: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2017, 03:45:16 PM »
I don't think they're "that committed".

Word on their plight has slowly leaked through the country through the black market. And I think people over-emphasize how much you need to "know the world" to be unhappy with your situation or lot in life.

If you're starving, you're starving. If you're thrown into the gulag, you know you're there.

North Korea, now three generations into the Juche Idea, and Jong leadership, they're much more into the "Everybody's terrified, (most) everyone knows the score, and they're all stuck in a big game of Catch-22/you first." when it comes to doing something about it.

And even if they are that committed, they simply lack the mobility/infrastructure to bring even a big fraction of their military power to bear along the DMZ. They don't have enough vehicles, trains, gasoline etc.  Compound that by US/ROK air superiority cutting their infrastructure to ribbons within the first 24-48 hours.

I'm not saying it would not suck... bigly, and not be a shitstorm of epic proportions. The northern burbs of Seoul will take some nasty hits (only a small fraction of their artillery pieces can reach Seoul, and only some rocket systems, the bulk of them lean towards 1950's tech...) and whatever infiltration/dirty-tricks in the rear the Norks manage to pull off in the ROK.  All in all, my gut feeling on the Nork's militarily, aside from the wild-card of ballistic missiles, SRBM's, IRBM's, and eventual ICBM capability is that they're "Another Iraq" in terms of actual conventional military performance.
And like the Iraqi army and even the "elite" Republican Guard, the severe authoritarian atmosphere is going to severely limit initiative even in the fraction of cases where the Norks actually have the logistics and mobility to pursue it.  All they have is a better facade of spit and polish from the nominal Asian-style conformity and fanaticism.
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Scout26

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Re: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2017, 12:44:51 AM »
Agree to an extent.  They don't (or won't after Big Blue gets going) have the logistics to re-fuel, re-arm, and re-supply.  But the first couple of days will be "very exciting".  And by very exciting, it will be a giant bowl of suck for the South Koreans.  We (and the ROKs) don't have enough tube and missile artillery to counter battery every Nork battery, and it will take a while to get Big Blue into the fight.  Plus the problem of too many targets, and then too many "high priority" targets.  Seoul is going to be taking fire for a couple-three days most likely.  The Norks are trying to hit a major metropolitian area, not a company of dismounted infantry.   Their tech doesn't have to be that great when the call for fire is pretty much "Point the tube south and pull the lanyard."  And yes, there will be a "high" failure rate for both artillery (~20% of shells are expected to be duds) and missiles (most experts say in the 50% range, because missiles are harder to get right.)  But they still have a metric Revload of it.


I don't think they're "that committed".

Word on their plight has slowly leaked through the country through the black market. And I think people over-emphasize how much you need to "know the world" to be unhappy with your situation or lot in life.

If you're starving, you're starving. If you're thrown into the gulag, you know you're there.

North Korea, now three generations into the Juche Idea, and Jong leadership, they're much more into the "Everybody's terrified, (most) everyone knows the score, and they're all stuck in a big game of Catch-22/you first." when it comes to doing something about it.


Thing is.  No one knows how committed they are.   And they do have "comparisons" to life outside Norkland.  Constant propaganda (showing lots of US Homeless People as if that's what all of America is like.   "Yeah, I may be starving, but those Americans want to come here and take my daily rice ball and fish head, screw them."  So, no one know how hard they'll fight.  Stockholm syndrome writ large perhaps ??

And yes, The lack of initiative will cripple them.  Anyone who served in the Army in the 1980's will tell you we were trained to shoot the Soviet Tanks with the antennas first (those were the unit leaders), kill those and the rest would meander around or come to halt until some leader (an officer) came along to tell them what to do: "Follow me, do what I do".   The problem we will have is once the Norks are on their own.   One guy can potentially wreak a lot of havoc.  And it won't take many true believers who are willing to die for (the Memory of) Kim to really jack up the casualty counts.  Plus all the Special Forces types in the KPA.  Those are some fanatical nutjobs.    Plus size.  1.2 million active and ~6 million reserves (of various stripes and training).  That's a lot of folks that mostly will need killin'.

Finally, there are two types of armies.  Parade armies, that are great at spit and polish, parades, and marching in formations.  Then field armies, they are good at killing the enemy and breaking the other side's stuff.   What we mostly know about the KPA is the Parade part, but the KPA is big enough to have a really good parade side and a really good field side.

Again, we'd probably win in the end, but we (and by we, I include the ROK) would pay a very high price in blood and treasure.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 11:41:21 PM by Amy Schumer »
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

RocketMan

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Re: Norks Overfly Japan with Missile
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2017, 08:53:41 PM »
I wonder if we could even mount the kind of operation being discussed here given the cutback in maintenance budgets across the various services during the Obama years.  For example, some reports indicate 70% of USMC aviation assets are grounded due to a lack of spare parts.
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