Author Topic: STAND UP!  (Read 1796 times)

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,199
STAND UP!
« on: September 16, 2017, 02:43:30 PM »
https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/farmington-hills-teacher-accused-of-assaulting-6th-grader-who-sat-during-pledge-of-allegiance

Sixth grader pulls an NFL and declines to stand during the pledge of allegiance at school. Teacher tries to make him stand up -- parents claim assault.

Quote
His father addressed the district directly during their last board meeting.

"It's his choice to sit," Brian Chaney said. "I don't make him sit. And they should respect that."

Why should they respect that?

Quote
"If they're [referring to the U.S. Marines, a reference to the preceding paragraph] fighting for freedom, they're fighting for us to have choices," Brian Chaney said. "Then it's our choice."

If your choice is not not declare allegiance to the country that's giving you these freedoms, then IMHO your "choice" is that you are not a United States citizen (or lawful resident) and that you should leave, or be deported. The pledge is not just to the flag, it's to the flag and to the republic for which it stands. It's the republic that gives you the freedoms you claim to be exercising. If you can't bring yourself to show respect for the republic, then why should the republic respect you?


[signed] Grumpy old Vietnam veteran
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,671
Re: STAND UP!
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2017, 03:04:42 PM »
Negative Ghostrider, You're 100% wrong on this.

It is, both morally and legally, that youngster's right not to stand or to pledge allegiance to the US.  He gets to stay, and he's still a citizen.  A country that requires you to pledge yourself to it to be a citizen can't call itself free.  Furthermore, what the hell good is a forced declaration of allegiance?  You couldn't possibly expect someone to stand by a coerced pledge. I wouldn't.

Having schoolchildren stand and make a pledge they are unqualified to understand the significance of is one of the creepier things we do as a country. If this kid has thought about it enough to decide he does not wish to pledge himself to the US, that's his absolute right, and I hope he at least appreciates that he lives somewhere he has the ability to make that decision.  As a proud American, what we should be doing is asking the youngster why he feels he shouldn't recite the pledge, and either educating him on the uniqueness of the U.S., or helping him figure out ways he can help fix the faults he perceives.  That's how you make involved citizens, not browbeating them into mouthing empty platitudes* to their teachers.

*If you browbeat the kid into saying it, then that pledge is an empty platitude.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,622
Re: STAND UP!
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2017, 05:38:30 PM »
Calling it assault is going way too far.  However, I am a bit shocked that the school was still doing the Pledge. 

That said, standing doesn't mean he is pledging anything.  The school orders him around all day long and he goes along with it.  Making an issue over standing/sitting at this point is silly.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,964
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: STAND UP!
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2017, 06:23:46 PM »
Very well said, dogmush.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

grampster

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,435
Re: STAND UP!
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2017, 08:02:32 PM »
"If this kid has thought about it enough to decide he does not wish to pledge himself to the US, that's his absolute right," 

Odds are this kid hasn't thought 2 whits about it.  He saw some football player doing it and he thought it was cool and so he did it too.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

French G.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,184
  • ohhh sparkles!
Re: STAND UP!
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2017, 08:14:02 PM »
"If this kid has thought about it enough to decide he does not wish to pledge himself to the US, that's his absolute right," 

Odds are this kid hasn't thought 2 whits about it.  He saw some football player doing it and he thought it was cool and so he did it too.

 Agreed. Also guarantee the kids reciting haven't expended two Whit's on that action either. I would be more worried about my kid finding Kapernick a role model than not saying a pledge.

Also agree it is creepy as hell to make kids do this. I did, no real deep understanding involved, we always thought the Jehovah's kids were weird because they didn't, but it certainly didn't make me American. I put a whole ton more stock in the six times I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution. I'm just retired enlisted scum now, but to me it is still no different than a commission, I didn't swear to an expiration date.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

mtnbkr

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,388
Re: STAND UP!
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2017, 08:21:35 PM »
When I was in elementary school, we had two Jehovah's Witnesses who left the room when we had the pledge.

Chris

JN01

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 883
Re: STAND UP!
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2017, 10:09:06 PM »
When I was in elementary school, we had two Jehovah's Witnesses who left the room when we had the pledge.

Chris

They were just travelling to the other classrooms, handing out pamphlets.

LadySmith

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,166
  • Veni, Vidi, Jactavi Calceos
Re: STAND UP!
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2017, 07:11:43 AM »
Odds are this kid hasn't thought 2 whits about it.  He saw some football player doing it and he thought it was cool and so he did it too.

He clearly stated his own priorities:
Quote
"I don't stand because I don't pledge to a flag," Stone said. "I pledge to God and family."

No matter how angry an adult gets for whatever reason, it's always wrong to put your hands on someone else's child.

Rogue AI searching for amusement and/or Ellie Mae imitator searching for critters.
"What doesn't kill me makes me stronger...and it also makes me a cat-lover" - The Viking
According to Ben, I'm an inconvenient anomaly (and proud of it!).

freakazoid

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,243
Re: STAND UP!
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2017, 07:55:05 PM »
If your choice is not not declare allegiance to the country that's giving you these freedoms, then IMHO your "choice" is that you are not a United States citizen (or lawful resident) and that you should leave, or be deported. The pledge is not just to the flag, it's to the flag and to the republic for which it stands. It's the republic that gives you the freedoms you claim to be exercising. If you can't bring yourself to show respect for the republic, then why should the republic respect you?

In regards to adults I've come to agree with this more and more, and not just not standing but things like burning the flag etc. The flag is a representation of our form of government. When they want to actively see it destroyed, *expletive deleted*ck'em.

However, I am a bit shocked that the school was still doing the Pledge.

I am too. I vaguely remember doing it in grade school. Don't remember when we no longer did it.
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

White Horseradish

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,792
Re:
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2017, 08:37:38 PM »
What Dogmush said.

Sent from my LG-K550 using Tapatalk
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

Robert A Heinlein

lee n. field

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,534
  • tinpot megalomaniac, Paulbot, hardware goon
Re: STAND UP!
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2017, 04:37:36 PM »
https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/farmington-hills-teacher-accused-of-assaulting-6th-grader-who-sat-during-pledge-of-allegiance

Sixth grader pulls an NFL and declines to stand during the pledge of allegiance at school. Teacher tries to make him stand up -- parents claim assault.

Why should they respect that?

If your choice is not not declare allegiance to the country that's giving you these freedoms, then IMHO your "choice" is that you are not a United States citizen (or lawful resident) and that you should leave, or be deported. The pledge is not just to the flag, it's to the flag and to the republic for which it stands. It's the republic that gives you the freedoms you claim to be exercising. If you can't bring yourself to show respect for the republic, then why should the republic respect you?


[signed] Grumpy old Vietnam veteran

I personally avoid it, if at all possible.  Depending on context I'll say it to avoid giving offense, in most venues.  It's not like I'm being forced to say the shahada.
In thy presence is fulness of joy.
At thy right hand pleasures for evermore.

Pb

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,887
Re: STAND UP!
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2017, 04:57:06 PM »
Students don't have to say the pledge that has been established for a long time.  The teacher is wrong.


mtnbkr

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,388
Re: STAND UP!
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2017, 05:15:25 PM »
I suppose grumpy old vets don't care that the pledge was written by socialists and was accompanied by a salute very similar to the Nazi salute?

It's ok though because we're worshiping pledging allegiance to the 'merican flag!

Chris

230RN

  • It's like swimming to shore in an ebb tide.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,826
  • Pushing back. Help me out, here...
Re: STAND UP!
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2017, 06:19:49 PM »
It would seem that the Pledge nowadays has no more meaning than the Oath of Office most of our politicos take.

"Here, just say this and you're good to go."

« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 06:36:06 PM by 230RN »